Winter Park (Colorado) Express is back

[railiner]

, partly caused by Amtrak having tried to close the Denver crew base entirely..

I wasn't aware of this...how would they work the CZ's in that case...and how would they handle it if a Wyoming detour would become necessary? Getting a UP pilot is one thing, but a full crew would be another...

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Ski rack right here on the outside of the train!

(the previous vintage Holmenkollenbanen wood trains - but the racks were on Oslo streetcars, buses and new subway trains for years)

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Actually it looks like they've regressed and you have to bring your ski's inside on the new cars (people are probably skiing less in Oslo - it's all x-country with some slalom and people travel to ski - plus warmer, snow-free winters). Of course, these are crowded subway trains with standee's, not a fairly long distance train journey. Photos from VG (Verdens Gang - "World Time" - tabloid)[and sorry for going off topic]:

 

[JP1822]

Torn on whether this "excursion train" should really be operating at this particular time when supplying capacity on regularly operated corridor and long distance trains go without - be it basic Superliner Coaches or the Superliner Sightseer Lounge Car..... I do support the train in general, but presently (and hopefully temporarily) it comes at the expense of supplying capacity to regularly operated Amtrak trains. Hopefully it is outfitted with the new ALC42 locomotives. This should be very telling.

With multiple NEC frequencies, maybe Amtrak could have taken a few cars from the train sets operating on the NEC to create an Amfleet train set for the Ski Train this year, and not a Superliner train set.

Also, is Colorado providing a cash subsidy to operate the Ski Train? Infrastructure support is one thing (e.g. station platforms etc.) - but money to operate a three day a week "excursion train" (not my words), with equipment sitting idle for four days straight while other trains go without? Again, torn on this issue. Not all trains have reduced demand in winter time. Some are quite the opposite due to winter vacation spots they serve.

 

[Willbridge]

Torn on whether this "excursion train" should really be operating at this particular time when supplying capacity on regularly operated corridor and long distance trains go without - be it basic Superliner Coaches or the Superliner Sightseer Lounge Car..... I do support the train in general, but presently (and hopefully temporarily) it comes at the expense of supplying capacity to regularly operated Amtrak trains. Hopefully it is outfitted with the new ALC42 locomotives. This should be very telling.

With multiple NEC frequencies, maybe Amtrak could have taken a few cars from the train sets operating on the NEC to create an Amfleet train set for the Ski Train this year, and not a Superliner train set.

Also, is Colorado providing a cash subsidy to operate the Ski Train? Infrastructure support is one thing (e.g. station platforms etc.) - but money to operate a three day a week "excursion train" (not my words), with equipment sitting idle for four days straight while other trains go without? Again, torn on this issue. Not all trains have reduced demand in winter time. Some are quite the opposite due to winter vacation spots they serve.

As in most of the previous years, this train is a money-making enterprise. (Once the Rio Grande came out of bankruptcy there was little evidence that it was a charitable organization.) The Winter Park resort operator paid for the heated platform demanded by the UP. It goes through a tunnel that is publicly owned but paid for by the users. The resort real estate is owned by the City and County of Denver.

Track 5 in renovated Denver Union Station was only built to handle intercity trains because of the Winter Park train. It is a critical element of ever having another long-distance service in this region but access to it was eagerly lobbied for by the commuter rail interests. The ballast was laid with the idea that "when Amtrak no longer needs them" (Tracks 4 and 5) they can be scraped out and these tracks would provide space for additional emu layovers or peak extra trains. The Pioneer saved Denver Union Station the first time and then was withdrawn in 1997. The Anschutz third generation ski train saved the second intercity track in DUS the second time and then was withdrawn during the development process. Another suspension for a couple of years risks re-opening that fight.

2nd generation Winter Park train:


3rd generation Winter Park train:


4th generation Winter Park train on Track 5:


It seems to me that it would be a better use of advocates' time to look for niche markets with shared facilities and operating expenses elsewhere than to risk losing both a current benefit and a statement for the future of rail passenger service.

The service depends on trained volunteer car hosts. In the interim between the 3rd and 4th generation services it took months to re-assemble the volunteer force that had dispersed.

 

[Willbridge]

I wasn't aware of this...how would they work the CZ's in that case...and how would they handle it if a Wyoming detour would become necessary? Getting a UP pilot is one thing, but a full crew would be another...

The issues you raised were also raised by the Denver union reps, which is how I learned about it. The plan was to relocate them to Lincoln. It coincided with the planning for restoration of the ski train, which would not be very practical without a Denver crew. It likely would have created frequent problems on 5/6 and diluted the knowledge base on the Rio Grande segment of 5/6.

 

[railiner]

As in most of the previous years, this train is a money-making enterprise. (Once the Rio Grande came out of bankruptcy there was little evidence that it was a charitable organization.) The Winter Park resort operator paid for the heated platform demanded by the UP. It goes through a tunnel that is publicly owned but paid for by the users. The resort real estate is owned by the City and County of Denver.

Track 5 in renovated Denver Union Station was only built to handle intercity trains because of the Winter Park train. It is a critical element of ever having another long-distance service in this region but access to it was eagerly lobbied for by the commuter rail interests. The ballast was laid with the idea that "when Amtrak no longer needs them" (Tracks 4 and 5) they can be scraped out and these tracks would provide space for additional emu layovers or peak extra trains. The Pioneer saved Denver Union Station the first time and then was withdrawn in 1997. The Anschutz third generation ski train saved the second intercity track in DUS the second time and then was withdrawn during the development process. Another suspension for a couple of years risks re-opening that fight.

2nd generation Winter Park train:
View attachment 30848

3rd generation Winter Park train:
View attachment 30849

4th generation Winter Park train on Track 5:
View attachment 30850

It seems to me that it would be a better use of advocates' time to look for niche markets with shared facilities and operating expenses elsewhere than to risk losing both a current benefit and a statement for the future of rail passenger service.

The service depends on trained volunteer car hosts. In the interim between the 3rd and 4th generation services it took months to re-assemble the volunteer force that had dispersed.
View attachment 30851

That "Second Generation" Ski Train was the one I recall the most...it shows the heavyweight former Northern Pacific coaches, as well as the lightweight combine coach-baggage, and the former Alco PB steam generator car. That train was basically a charter for the Eskimo Ski Club, which also allocated some tickets to the Intermountain Chapter, NRHS for public sale. The later train contained the former CN Hawker-Siddeley aluminum bodied 'Tempo' cars.

 

[Willbridge]

That "Second Generation" Ski Train was the one I recall the most...it shows the heavyweight former Northern Pacific coaches, as well as the lightweight combine coach-baggage, and the former Alco PB steam generator car. That train was basically a charter for the Eskimo Ski Club, which also allocated some tickets to the Intermountain Chapter, NRHS for public sale. The later train contained the former CN Hawker-Siddeley aluminum bodied 'Tempo' cars.

In '86 my Dad saw that equipment and observed that he had ridden as a standee in those cars in WWII. They had been built as sleepers. When the war came the NP had saved some walkover coach seats out of even older cars and they created high-capacity coaches that hung around for peak seasons and excursions until the late-60's.

 

[railiner]

In '86 my Dad saw that equipment and observed that he had ridden as a standee in those cars in WWII. They had been built as sleepers. When the war came the NP had saved some walkover coach seats out of even older cars and they created high-capacity coaches that hung around for peak seasons and excursions until the late-60's.

Those NP cars, IIRC, had some neat heavy 'beaded glass' windows in their restrooms, that still contained the NP 'monad' logo etched or cast into them...

 

[user 14106]

I heard a report on one of the Facebook groups some of the coaches for this years WPE train are being pulled from the coast starlight and as a result they’re suspending the business class. The business class cars, which only run on the starlight, are supposedly just going to be sold as regular coach seats during this period and one of the regular coaches is being pulled (the starlight will still run with two coaches - one regular coach and the business serving as a coach.). I took a look at coast starlight availability for the winter period and couldn’t find any sold out trains. So if that’s indeed what they did it’s probably not the end of the world so long as the starlight gets its coaches back for the busy season.

This train seems to do well and I can see why Amtrak wants to run it - they don’t need a crazy amount of equipment for this as it’s just one trainset. It’s not really a game changer in what is slow season for a number of the trains.

Given the nature of this service and the fact they’re dropping business from the starlight for the winter I would be very surprised if the WPE has anything other than superliners.

 

[Cal]

I heard a report on one of the Facebook groups some of the coaches for this years WPE train are being pulled from the coast starlight and as a result they’re suspending the business class. The business class cars, which only run on the starlight, are supposedly just going to be sold as regular coach seats during this period and one of the regular coaches is being pulled (the starlight will still run with two coaches - one regular coach and the business serving as a coach.). I took a look at coast starlight availability for the winter period and couldn’t find any sold out trains. So if that’s indeed what they did it’s probably not the end of the world so long as the starlight gets its coaches back for the busy season.

This train seems to do well and I can see why Amtrak wants to run it - they don’t need a crazy amount of equipment for this as it’s just one trainset. It’s not really a game changer in what is slow season for a number of the trains.

Given the nature of this service and the fact they’re dropping business from the starlight for the winter I would be very surprised if the WPE has anything other than superliners.

I heard business isn't bookable for the Starlight either. I mean, if it works it works I guess.

 

[Siegmund]

It seems an odd decision - in what possible universe can they make more running carrying people 50 miles 3 times a week, than 500 miles every day? Even 3 coaches feels like, well, a 2022 consist for the Starlight. I would imagine that at least in California those seats were close to selling out most days.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

It seems an odd decision - in what possible universe can they make more running carrying people 50 miles 3 times a week, than 500 miles every day? Even 3 coaches feels like, well, a 2022 consist for the Starlight. I would imagine that at least in California those seats were close to selling out most days.

How many coach riders travel 500 miles?

 

[Septa9739]

It depends, but on the starlight the average coach trip in 2019 was 380 miles, so there has To be a good number. On the Western transcons, the average coach ride is over 500 miles.

 

[Siegmund]

I was speaking, in round terms, of my impression that (before the pandemic) the Starlight ran full through California even in the offseason, more so than the length of any one person's ride. (It is the only long distance train I've seen overbooked to the point of people sprawling asleep in the lounge car after dark on the way to Sacramento.)

When there is actually surplus equipment, running seasonal trains is a fine idea. Have they really run off so many potential customers with the various cuts and delays and restorations that they can now? Maybe so...

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

I was speaking, in round terms, of my impression that (before the pandemic) the Starlight ran full through California even in the offseason, more so than the length of any one person's ride. (It is the only long distance train I've seen overbooked to the point of people sprawling asleep in the lounge car after dark on the way to Sacramento.)

When there is actually surplus equipment, running seasonal trains is a fine idea. Have they really run off so many potential customers with the various cuts and delays and restorations that they can now? Maybe so...

Multi year contract. The equipment was there and surplus at the start. May not be there now.

Amtrak might be trying to stop a certain other PTOC (passenger train operation company) from getting this business. Or they just can’t break there contract.

 

[user 14106]

Multi year contract. The equipment was there and surplus at the start. May not be there now.

Amtrak might be trying to stop a certain other PTOC (passenger train operation company) from getting this business. Or they just can’t break there contract.

I support it at the end of the day. It exposes a bunch of people to rail travel that may otherwise be aware of the option on one of the most dramatic and coolest segments in the system between Denver and winter park.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Amtrak might be trying to stop a certain other PTOC (passenger train operation company) from getting this business.

Brightline? Doesn't seem to fit their type of operation. Rocky Mountaineer?

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Brightline? Doesn't seem to fit their type of operation. Rocky Mountaineer?

Rocky Mountaineer has equipment right there in Colorado. Seem a natural fit for expansion of there services. Additional bonus they can start weekend service as soon there snow on the mountains.

 

[Cal]

Rocky Mountaineer has equipment right there in Colorado. Seem a natural fit for expansion of there services. Additional bonus they can start weekend service as soon there snow on the mountains.

I think @AmtrakMaineiac was saying Brightline wouldn't go there. And then questioned if they were talking about the Rocky Mountaineer.

 

[SubwayNut]

I bet Rocky Mountaineer takes its equipment back to its shops in Kamloops, BC to maintain the cars in the winter.

 

[cirdan]

Well, there is not really much to see on the TE. The scenery from Denver to Winter Park is way better.

Time to construct some mountains in Missouri?

 

[TRA_Thom]

I bet Rocky Mountaineer takes its equipment back to its shops in Kamloops, BC to maintain the cars in the winter.

Not all at the same time, at least. I saw a bunch in Denver yesterday.

 

[Agent]

The equipment for the Winter Park Express went west on Amtrak #5(10). Two P42s and five Superliners. No wrap advertisements on any of the cars this year. First run was today with a couple local Denver television stations covering it.

 

[Willbridge]

The equipment for the Winter Park Express went west on Amtrak #5(10). Two P42s and five Superliners. No wrap advertisements on any of the cars this year. First run was today with a couple local Denver television stations covering it.

It's great to see a television copter shot of a train that is not in a wreck or a grade crossing accident.