Refresh Stops

[MrFSS]

Most out of stock on food items is either thanks to the commissary not having the item available on the day of departure or because Amtrak doesn't want the expense of wasting food that goes unused and would then go beyond their expiration dates. Amtrak has the space to put more food on board, they just don't want to since it all to often will go to waste.

Alsn I was refering to the diner when the SA says were out of "___________', all we have is"__________"<

this is especially prevelent on the LD trains Ive ridden on the second day of the trip,especially dinner.Is there really

any reason to be "out" of ice cream, or pie or "steak" etc. when the people that woek the trains know

what is popular, and especially now that most of the food is pre-prepared and just "heated" aboard??

And that is exactly what I was referring to with my post. There is a reason. Whether it's a good one or not probably depends on one's point of view. But the simple reason most often is that someone decided to count nickels and dimes and did not over order food because they don't want it to go to waste.

Even in a regular fixed restaurant the manager and cook have to walk a delicate line with what they order. One can never predict whether 50 people will order the fish tonight or 40. So you have to over buy to some extent and hope that you came close on your guess, such that you don't have too many pieces of fish left over at the end of the night. If you can't sell it by the next night, then most likely it's going in the garbage.

With the constant beating of the drum that says Amtrak has to slash food service costs, Amtrak is loading less food on the trains. They're loading enough to feed everyone, but if more people than expected order fish the first night out, then they'll run out on the second night.

I'm far from an expert on this, but let's say that your average restaurant would over order the expected sales of fish by 10% so as to have a buffer just in case more people decide to have fish tonight. Well Amtrak is only over ordering by maybe 4% to 5%. And therefore they are running out of items depending on which items are the hot sellers that first night. The crews AFAIK have no control over how many of each menu item they get. Maybe Ex223 will correct me on that, but again AFAIK, the LSA has no say in how many of each meal he/she gets from the commissary.

So again, while it's probably not a good reason from a customer perspective and it is probably a fool hardy reason since you are angering your customers, there is indeed a reason for it; it's called saving money.

So, if they load enough flat iron steak for 50 meals and only sell 40 of them, they have to throw away the remaing 10 when the destination is reached? Can't they just use them for the start of the next trip and only have to load 40 to have the 50 needed?

 

[wayman]

So, if they load enough flat iron steak for 50 meals and only sell 40 of them, they have to throw away the remaing 10 when the destination is reached? Can't they just use them for the start of the next trip and only have to load 40 to have the 50 needed?

Steaks have a limited shelf-life; after a couple days, they're not going to be good (and probably not legally servable food according to the FDA). Likewise with the fish and pretty much any other meal.

Ice cream, on the other hand, will last in the freezer just fine. I can't see why they wouldn't just always fill up on ice cream since there's no way it would become waste if unsold on a given trip.

 

[AlanB]

So, if they load enough flat iron steak for 50 meals and only sell 40 of them, they have to throw away the remaing 10 when the destination is reached? Can't they just use them for the start of the next trip and only have to load 40 to have the 50 needed?

Well first, the unused food won't remain on the train. It will go back to the commissary upon arrival at the end point city, assuming that the city has a commissary.

Then to answer your question, assuming that the flat irons haven't gone past their expiration date, yes it could go back out on the next day's train. But if it has a shelf life of say 3 days, then no, it would be going into the garbage as it was most likely prepared the day before the train left Chicago for example, spent 1 night in Chicago and 2 on the train.

I'm not sure what the shelf life is, just using that as an example. Fish of course, as do many meats, have a very short shelf life.

 

[AlanB]

Ice cream, on the other hand, will last in the freezer just fine. I can't see why they wouldn't just always fill up on ice cream since there's no way it would become waste if unsold on a given trip.

As I was saying in my post written almost at the same time you were writing yours, the food leaves the train at the end of the run. That means that it thaws a bit each time you take it out of the freezer and then refreezes. Eventually if you do that enough, even ice cream starts to taste funny.

 

[Guest]

( :lol: ) or an ice maker with the stinulus money!

But union rules would still require that all its ice be manually loaded into the ice maker by the LSA or SA's.

 

[the_traveler]

Ice cream, on the other hand, will last in the freezer just fine. I can't see why they wouldn't just always fill up on ice cream since there's no way it would become waste if unsold on a given trip.

True, but if they load up the freezer with a lot of ice cream, you may hear something like "We ran out of steak/chicken/fish/ice for your drinks/etc... - but we have ice cream for desert!" The more ice cream that you load into storage would mean that they could load less of something else aboard.

 

[EB_OBS]

AMTRAK management sets the PAR for the trains. An experienced person will look at historical data, such as what the sales and usages were for the previous two years during the same week. Also look at recent sales data, looking for upwards and downwards trends and also what promotions or specials are being offered that will affect usages.

It's much easier to micro-manage your inventory in a regular restaurant than it is on a train. A restaurant has a delivery schedule and a fixed amount of time until the next delivery and their demographics don't drastically change from one week to the next. It's a bit different for a dining car on a train. So basically AMTRAK decides upon a low PAR and a HIGH PAR and leave it up the the LSA and Chef to increase items if necessary. An inexperienced LSA or chef though, can quite easily not get it right. There's a huge number of items to be looked at and checked at the commissary as well as scrutinizing the manifest. It's easy to miss something.

During peak season on the EB, on high PARs, the storage in the kitchen and pantry are maxed out. As a matter of fact, at the moment we are having issues with overloading the reefers and killing the air flow, thus freezing up the condensers. On high PARs there is hardly any additional storage for the LSA or chef to order more. It's challenging to ensure you don't run out of more than one or two entree items.

Chefs can return thawed product into the commissary and it can be re-issued if it is within proper use by date and temp. Beef has a 72 hours use-through date thawed. It takes several hours to properly thaw frozen meats and if the chef under estimates demand for a particular menu item he will run out for that meal period because it would take too long to thaw it properly. There would be more for the next day though. Also some chefs simply cut their PAR of an item in half and serve it til it runs out that day and reserve the other half for the next day.

Ideally, it's very important to be conscious of waste. Any restaurant is. AMTRAK chefs must be even more so. The commissaries do track how much condemned food comes off a train and the chef with high condemned food counts will be asked about it.

While it is possible to buy products en route, it's always way more expensive than AMTRAK's usual cost and any non-AMTRAK products that come off a train cannot be reissued. They are always condemned.

Ice

Ice does take up a lot of room in the freezers. We can and do get it en route during summer months. Ice handling has always been a weak spot for many establishments. FDA and local health departments have specific guidelines for ice. Ice isn't supposed to be scooped up with the cups or glasses. Anyone go to movie theaters often? They never train the kids working there to use a scoop. The scoop cannot be stored in the ice. Ice has to be covered. Ice machines have to sanitized nightly, weekly and monthly. Ice bins have to be emptied and sanitized daily. Ice is a food product and must be handled as such.

The attendants have to keep the ice in a secure location and cannot let passengers get their own ice. This isn't a new rule but the FDA has dinged us several times this year and has showed a renewed focus on enforcing it.

 

[MrFSS]

The attendants have to keep the ice in a secure location and cannot let passengers get their own ice. This isn't a new rule but the FDA has dinged us several times this year and has showed a renewed focus on enforcing it.

I was just on the CONO and the ice was out for all to "help themselves" and it had a cup in the ice container you "scooped" the ice with into your cup.

By the way, the OJ is not a very tasty brand. Very bitter.

 

[Bierboy]

The attendants have to keep the ice in a secure location and cannot let passengers get their own ice. This isn't a new rule but the FDA has dinged us several times this year and has showed a renewed focus on enforcing it.

I was just on the CONO and the ice was out for all to "help themselves" and it had a cup in the ice container you "scooped" the ice with into your cup.

By the way, the OJ is not a very tasty brand. Very bitter.

On the other hand, we enjoyed that brand of apple juice....

 

[jphjaxfl]

AMTRAK management sets the PAR for the trains. An experienced person will look at historical data, such as what the sales and usages were for the previous two years during the same week. Also look at recent sales data, looking for upwards and downwards trends and also what promotions or specials are being offered that will affect usages.
It's much easier to micro-manage your inventory in a regular restaurant than it is on a train. A restaurant has a delivery schedule and a fixed amount of time until the next delivery and their demographics don't drastically change from one week to the next. It's a bit different for a dining car on a train. So basically AMTRAK decides upon a low PAR and a HIGH PAR and leave it up the the LSA and Chef to increase items if necessary. An inexperienced LSA or chef though, can quite easily not get it right. There's a huge number of items to be looked at and checked at the commissary as well as scrutinizing the manifest. It's easy to miss something.

During peak season on the EB, on high PARs, the storage in the kitchen and pantry are maxed out. As a matter of fact, at the moment we are having issues with overloading the reefers and killing the air flow, thus freezing up the condensers. On high PARs there is hardly any additional storage for the LSA or chef to order more. It's challenging to ensure you don't run out of more than one or two entree items.

Chefs can return thawed product into the commissary and it can be re-issued if it is within proper use by date and temp. Beef has a 72 hours use-through date thawed. It takes several hours to properly thaw frozen meats and if the chef under estimates demand for a particular menu item he will run out for that meal period because it would take too long to thaw it properly. There would be more for the next day though. Also some chefs simply cut their PAR of an item in half and serve it til it runs out that day and reserve the other half for the next day.

Ideally, it's very important to be conscious of waste. Any restaurant is. AMTRAK chefs must be even more so. The commissaries do track how much condemned food comes off a train and the chef with high condemned food counts will be asked about it.

While it is possible to buy products en route, it's always way more expensive than AMTRAK's usual cost and any non-AMTRAK products that come off a train cannot be reissued. They are always condemned.

Ice

Ice does take up a lot of room in the freezers. We can and do get it en route during summer months. Ice handling has always been a weak spot for many establishments. FDA and local health departments have specific guidelines for ice. Ice isn't supposed to be scooped up with the cups or glasses. Anyone go to movie theaters often? They never train the kids working there to use a scoop. The scoop cannot be stored in the ice. Ice has to be covered. Ice machines have to sanitized nightly, weekly and monthly. Ice bins have to be emptied and sanitized daily. Ice is a food product and must be handled as such.

The attendants have to keep the ice in a secure location and cannot let passengers get their own ice. This isn't a new rule but the FDA has dinged us several times this year and has showed a renewed focus on enforcing it.

Thanks for the great summary of the inside workings of Amtrak. Regarding the Ice, I worked in Public Health while in the Air Force. Ice machines were notorious for having harmful bacteria because people with unwashed hands were coming in contact with ice in machines and storage coolers which can result in illness much like food poisoning. The general public thinks because ice is frozen that bacteria can't survive, but they do.

 

[battalion51]

What is the capacity of the fuel tank on a P-42? If its 5000gal like most freight engines trains like the Crescent shouldn't need refueling enroute. If the Crescent with 2 P-42 was fully fueled to 5000gal each that would mean they could burn up to 9gal/mi and still have some left over. I do know the train is re-fueled at Charlotte but aside from there I can't remember seeing a place to refuel.

IIRC the fuel capacity is 2200 gallons per unit split into four fuel cells. In general, the only places that Amtrak has pumps on site for fuel is at major yards like Redondo, Oakland, etc. For en route fueling it almost exclusively comes from a truck from a local contractor. In some instances it would be possible to get from point A to point B without stopping for fuel. However since you don't want to run out en route it is an issue. For example you should in theory be able to run from Sanford to Lorton without refueling (since the average diesel burns about 2 gallons to the mile, yes gallons to the mile) given that it's 855 miles. However with stopping, pulling a heavy train, and other factors fueling becomes necessary so you're not dead in the water if there's an emergency and you have to stop for an hour or two. Many times en route fueling stops will just be to top off the tank to get to the end point.

 

[Meat Puppet]

On our recent trip on the Empire Builder, our SCA didn't put ice out, but had it in her roomette (which was just across from the coffee station on our sleeper). All we had to do was ask her for ice.

That might be more about trying to comply with the health regulations. Amtrak keeps getting flack for people mishandling the scoop for the ice by dropping into the ice itself, since there is no place to secure the scoop.

I agree, Alan. On my eastbound EB trip earlier this month the SCA said that the new rule on the EBs is that only the SCA can go into the ice. He said it is because of concerns about swine flu. As a result, he was up and down delivering buckets of ice all the time, and the ice chest was depleted faster by the bucket than by the glass. On my westbound EB trip they did not know of and/or enforce the rule and things were status quo on my last CS trip.

Given the new ice rule then, what is the chance that whomever is in charge of filling at the beginning of the routes or replenishing said ice will stock more onboard? Or would that be something that would take them awhile to figure out?

I would think it wouldn't take a whole lot of preplanning to at least double the ice........

A previous post from an SA from Seattle mention about ice coming onboard in Montana!

Storage space is @ a premium on trains as we all know, guess Amtral could buy a freezer for each sleeper

( :lol: ) or an ice maker with the stinulus money!The real answer is to allow the LSA and SAs to stock

what is needed @ stops along the way and not try to load up for roundtrips in Chicago or NYP otr wherever!

You constantly hear that they are out of popular items in the diners as well as ice!Trust someone on the train

AMTRAK SUITS, as Ive said before bean counters do not give or ensure good service!!! :lol: The Indian train

pic must be the Indian version of the EB or CZ in Summer, a most popular train!!! :lol: :lol: (Is this 5th class??? :lol: :lol: )

Most out of stock on food items is either thanks to the commissary not having the item available on the day of departure or because Amtrak doesn't want the expense of wasting food that goes unused and would then go beyond their expiration dates. Amtrak has the space to put more food on board, they just don't want to since it all to often will go to waste.

Ice on the other hand is a problem since it is a rather bulky item that does take up considerable space in the freezers. This is why ice is restocked along the way, and food is typically not.

Why doesnt Amtrak allow sleeper car pass, even coach actually, to choose their entree's when they buy their ticket? Such as catering halls do when people rsvp to a wedding invitation.

 

[battalion51]

I can come up with several reasons why off the top of my head. What I get will largely depend on what I'm in the mood for. Odds are I'll get the beef entree, but I've had chicken and vegetarian options before just because it suited my taste buds. Also you have the issue of booking months in advance, when the menu that's being used is subject to change. When you're doing a privately catered event like a wedding Bride & Groom have to limit the menu because of the large number of people that will be served in a very narrow time frame. On the train, things can change, and people want choices since THEY are paying for it.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Why doesnt Amtrak allow sleeper car pass, even coach actually, to choose their entree's when they buy their ticket? Such as catering halls do when people rsvp to a wedding invitation.

I have been to lots of weddings over many years, I have yet to have them actually track and follow thru with a specific dinner request. Those requests at rsvp time are really only used to give rough overall numbers. And months later, I rarely remember which box I checked on my rsvp, and simply tell the waitstaff whatever I feel like eating at that moment.

 

[battalion51]

So you're the jerk that screws things up and forces us to plate up additional food. :lol: Yet another place where you have to create wiggle room during plate up and prepare additional food so no one is sitting in the dark without food.

 

[sunchaser]

I was just looking at the schedule for the Coast Starlight & trying to figure out how many refresh stops it has from Los Angeles, Ca. to Seattle, Wa. I know there is one in Portland, Or., are there any others, such as Emeryville, Ca.?

(edited for content)

 

[p&sr]

I was just looking at the schedule for the Coast Starlight & trying to figure out how many refresh stops it has from Los Angeles, Ca. to Seattle, Wa. I know there is one in Portland, Or., are there any others, such as Emeryville, Ca.?

San Jose, Oakland, and Emeryville are built into the Schedule... you will note that they (along with Portland) have separate times posted for Arrival and Departure.

The other stops can vary from trip to trip, depending whether you're on schedule and other things known to the Conductor.

In my experience, there is always a refresh stop at Sacramento and at Klamath Falls. There is usually a stop at Eugene, Oregon as well.

To the South of the Bay Area, I recall stops at Salinas, San Luis Obispo, and Santa Barbara as well.

Typically (NOT a rule!) a refresh stop should occur about every 2 to 4 hours except during the night.

Enjoy your Trip!!

 

[battalion51]

Be careful with how you define refresh stop though. Just because there's an extended stop and/or crew change does not mean it's a refresh stop. Two prime examples come to mind. The first is Hamlet, NC, crew change but no potential to refresh the train at all. The other is Tampa, FL, another crew change but usually a long stop. No fueling, watering, or supplies are taken on at this location. About the only thing you might see would be some trash being put off.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

Or Orlando, which I do not believe is either crew change or refresh, simply a long dwell time stop because of the high volume of passengers that either entrain or detrain there.

 

[the_traveler]

The other is Tampa, FL, ... About the only thing you might see would be some trash being put off.

I haven't taken a train to Tampa in over 20 years! :angry: :lol:

 

[sky12065]

The other is Tampa, FL, ... About the only thing you might see would be some trash being put off.

I haven't taken a train to Tampa in over 20 years! :angry: :lol:

OMG... QUICK! SOMEBODY GET TRAVELER A RESPIRATOR! :huh: :blink: :unsure:

 

[the_traveler]

The other is Tampa, FL, ... About the only thing you might see would be some trash being put off.

I haven't taken a train to Tampa in over 20 years! :angry: :lol:

OMG... QUICK! SOMEBODY GET TRAVELER A RESPIRATOR! :huh: :blink: :unsure:

The reason is ...........

...............

.......... I can't do the SDL loophole via Tampa! The closest I've come to Tampa by train recently is connecting in JAX from the SL from LAX - but the SL is "temporarily suspended"! (Will that be another 20 years? :huh: )

 

[Bob Dylan]

The other is Tampa, FL, ... About the only thing you might see would be some trash being put off.

I haven't taken a train to Tampa in over 20 years! :angry: :lol:

OMG... QUICK! SOMEBODY GET TRAVELER A RESPIRATOR! :huh: :blink: :unsure:

PACK!REST!SMILE!!!!!!!BOARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!BOB VOYAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[sky12065]

The other is Tampa, FL, ... About the only thing you might see would be some trash being put off.

I haven't taken a train to Tampa in over 20 years! :angry: :lol:

OMG... QUICK! SOMEBODY GET TRAVELER A RESPIRATOR! :huh: :blink: :unsure:

PACK!REST!SMILE!!!!!!!BOARD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!BOB VOYAGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Actually, my wife does most of the packing while I handle the anxiety attacks. :unsure: But we both do get rest and smiles. Thanks for the hasta la vista message!

 

[sunchaser]

I second that-same thing happens at our house-

However the order at our house is smile-pack-rest-repeat! Then it's just smiles & rest- repeat! :lol:

Have fun-keep us posted!