Did the Santa Fe ever serve Santa Fe directly

[National Limited]

Just a question for clarification. Did the AT&SF ever actually serve Santa Fe? It seems that I remember hearing that their passenger trains only served Lamy and never went into Santa Fe. If not what was the reason for it not serving Santa Fe?

 

[gregoryla]

Just a question for clarification. Did the AT&SF ever actually serve Santa Fe? It seems that I remember hearing that their passenger trains only served Lamy and never went into Santa Fe. If not what was the reason for it not serving Santa Fe?

My understanding is that the main line went was not routed through Santa Fe because of the hills surrounding the city. A spur was later built from Lamy to Santa Fe, but the main line has always gone through Lamy.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Just a question for clarification. Did the AT&SF ever actually serve Santa Fe? It seems that I remember hearing that their passenger trains only served Lamy and never went into Santa Fe. If not what was the reason for it not serving Santa Fe?

My understanding is that the main line went was not routed through Santa Fe because of the hills surrounding the city. A spur was later built from Lamy to Santa Fe, but the main line has always gone through Lamy.

I believe that's right. The local geography made access to Santa Fe itself difficult, so the main line passed through Lamy. At one time, there may have been a connecting train on the branch line, but in modern times, a shuttle bus/van was the connection, even under the Santa Fe.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

It is not too unusual for a railroad name to not quite match its routes.

One of my favorite examples is the Frisco Railroad, well used nickname for St.Louis San Francisco Road. So where did it go? St. Louis? yes. San Francisco? Nope, not even close. Try Kansas City,San Antonio, Dallas, even Birmingham, AL.

I guess when a railroad is being planned they plan it one way, get legal recognition for its name, then for whatever reason it gets built somewhere else.

 

[Eric S]

I have a 1948 Santa Fe timetable and it shows 1 mixed train roundtrip Lamy-Santa Fe (Mon-Sat) and 5 motor coach roundtrips that connect with the various trains through Lamy.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I have a 1948 Santa Fe timetable and it shows 1 mixed train roundtrip Lamy-Santa Fe (Mon-Sat) and 5 motor coach roundtrips that connect with the various trains through Lamy.

Eric, I got around to to my sources this morning and came up with the same info.

Should anybody not be quite sure what a "mixed" train is, it means a mix of passenger and freight.The "passenger " service on such a train is nearly always very minimal, coach only,no food, etc at least not normally. Usually only goes a very short branch line distance. Sometimes it meant passengers allowed in the caboose.

The concept is long since out of date, at least in the U.S. It was more meaningful back in the days when lots of roads were not paved, etc.

I guess most were gone by the 60's.Never, ever on Amtrak. ( and do not confuse freight with mail).

 

[jis]

Should anybody not be quite sure what a "mixed" train is, it means a mix of passenger and freight.The "passenger " service on such a train is nearly always very minimal, coach only,no food, etc at least not normally. Usually only goes a very short branch line distance. Sometimes it meant passengers allowed in the caboose.
The concept is long since out of date, at least in the U.S. It was more meaningful back in the days when lots of roads were not paved, etc.

I guess most were gone by the 60's.Never, ever on Amtrak. ( and do not confuse freight with mail).

What about the Boxcar George's freightliners like the Three Rivers? As I recall even the CZ used to run regularly with 8 to 10 MHCs those days.

 

[JayPea]

The last pre-Amtrak trip I took was on a mixed train from Spokane to Hinkle, OR and back in 1970. That train lasted until the bitter end, right up to the day Amtrak began operations. The old SP &S (Spokane, Portland, and Seattle) is another line that didn't exactly go as advertised in its name. It never did reach Seattle.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Should anybody not be quite sure what a "mixed" train is, it means a mix of passenger and freight.The "passenger " service on such a train is nearly always very minimal, coach only,no food, etc at least not normally. Usually only goes a very short branch line distance. Sometimes it meant passengers allowed in the caboose.
The concept is long since out of date, at least in the U.S. It was more meaningful back in the days when lots of roads were not paved, etc.

I guess most were gone by the 60's.Never, ever on Amtrak. ( and do not confuse freight with mail).

What about the Boxcar George's freightliners like the Three Rivers? As I recall even the CZ used to run regularly with 8 to 10 MHCs those days.

Good point but I think not. Words sort of mean what they mean at the time. The word "mixed train" was long gone before anything like what ran on the Three Rivers etc.ever happened.

For a mixed train, when the name was in regular usage, think something like this:

1950

four freight cars, one mail car,one baggage coach combine

60 mile total route, adjacent to dirt highway

four hours to make the trip.

Daily except Sunday.

low density population,or at least very low density branched off from higher (though Santa Fe and Lamy may not be the best examples of this)

You could technically make the point, I guess, but it is gazallion years away from the mental image commonly associated with the designation.

 

[alanh]

The 1963 timtable only shows buses Lamy-Santa Fe.

The Denver & Rio Grande also served Santa Fe from Antonito, CO until 1941.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

The 1963 timtable only shows buses Lamy-Santa Fe.
The Denver & Rio Grande also served Santa Fe from Antonio, CO until 1941.

Yes, so it stopped sometime between 1957 and 1963 since my source was 1957. Eric, earlier, had quoted from 1948.

Kind of hard to picture the Santa Fe with lowly mixed trains since it was so much better known for the Super Chief, the Chief, El Capitan, the Texas Chief, the San Francisco Chief,Kansas City Chief, the Tulsan, the San Diegans etc, etc etc.

But of course it was a huge railroad and went many places. "Santa Fe all the way" as they ued to proudly advertise.

 

[gercohen]

I have a 1948 Santa Fe timetable and it shows 1 mixed train roundtrip Lamy-Santa Fe (Mon-Sat) and 5 motor coach roundtrips that connect with the various trains through Lamy.

Eric, I got around to to my sources this morning and came up with the same info.

Should anybody not be quite sure what a "mixed" train is, it means a mix of passenger and freight.The "passenger " service on such a train is nearly always very minimal, coach only,no food, etc at least not normally. Usually only goes a very short branch line distance. Sometimes it meant passengers allowed in the caboose.

The concept is long since out of date, at least in the U.S. It was more meaningful back in the days when lots of roads were not paved, etc.

I guess most were gone by the 60's.Never, ever on Amtrak. ( and do not confuse freight with mail).

I think there was a mixed train Atlanta-Social Circle-Augusta up until sometime in the 80s, non Amtrak

http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php/narpblog/2008/08/

 

[National Limited]

I have a 1948 Santa Fe timetable and it shows 1 mixed train roundtrip Lamy-Santa Fe (Mon-Sat) and 5 motor coach roundtrips that connect with the various trains through Lamy.

Eric, I got around to to my sources this morning and came up with the same info.

Should anybody not be quite sure what a "mixed" train is, it means a mix of passenger and freight.The "passenger " service on such a train is nearly always very minimal, coach only,no food, etc at least not normally. Usually only goes a very short branch line distance. Sometimes it meant passengers allowed in the caboose.

The concept is long since out of date, at least in the U.S. It was more meaningful back in the days when lots of roads were not paved, etc.

I guess most were gone by the 60's.Never, ever on Amtrak. ( and do not confuse freight with mail).

I think there was a mixed train Atlanta-Social Circle-Augusta up until sometime in the 80s, non Amtrak

http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php/narpblog/2008/08/

This is fascinating. Any idea on the passenger load of this service? Did they advertise in any way or was it simply by word of mouth? Was access to the passenger coach denied or was it optional since the coach offered no HVAC?

 

[gercohen]

I have a 1948 Santa Fe timetable and it shows 1 mixed train roundtrip Lamy-Santa Fe (Mon-Sat) and 5 motor coach roundtrips that connect with the various trains through Lamy.

Eric, I got around to to my sources this morning and came up with the same info.

Should anybody not be quite sure what a "mixed" train is, it means a mix of passenger and freight.The "passenger " service on such a train is nearly always very minimal, coach only,no food, etc at least not normally. Usually only goes a very short branch line distance. Sometimes it meant passengers allowed in the caboose.

The concept is long since out of date, at least in the U.S. It was more meaningful back in the days when lots of roads were not paved, etc.

I guess most were gone by the 60's.Never, ever on Amtrak. ( and do not confuse freight with mail).

I think there was a mixed train Atlanta-Social Circle-Augusta up until sometime in the 80s, non Amtrak

http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php/narpblog/2008/08/

better link to the Georgia Railroad mixed service

http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php/narp..._georgia_mixed/

I am pretty sure this showed on the AMTRAK timeable in the early 80s.

UPDATE: from the 5/15/1975 AMTRAK timetable http://www.timetables.org/browse/?group=19750515&st=0001 page 57 shows the Georgia Railroadd mixed service http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=1...5&item=0057\

also a mixed Washington- Lynchburg still running in 1975 http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=1...5&item=0055

 

[PaulM]

Should anybody not be quite sure what a "mixed" train is, it means a mix of passenger and freight.The "passenger " service on such a train is nearly always very minimal, coach only,no food, etc at least not normally. Usually only goes a very short branch line distance. Sometimes it meant passengers allowed in the caboose.
The concept is long since out of date, at least in the U.S. It was more meaningful back in the days when lots of roads were not paved, etc.

Oddly enough, I believe the Santa Fe Southern tourist trains between Santa Fe and Lamy also carry some freight, making them mixed trains.

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

Sometimes it meant passengers allowed in the caboose.

Wow, I could consider that one major "plus".

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

I have a 1948 Santa Fe timetable and it shows 1 mixed train roundtrip Lamy-Santa Fe (Mon-Sat) and 5 motor coach roundtrips that connect with the various trains through Lamy.

Eric, I got around to to my sources this morning and came up with the same info.
Should anybody not be quite sure what a "mixed" train is, it means a mix of passenger and freight.The "passenger " service on such a train is nearly always very minimal, coach only,no food, etc at least not normally. Usually only goes a very short branch line distance. Sometimes it meant passengers allowed in the caboose.

The concept is long since out of date, at least in the U.S. It was more meaningful back in the days when lots of roads were not paved, etc.

I guess most were gone by the 60's.Never, ever on Amtrak. ( and do not confuse freight with mail).

I think there was a mixed train Atlanta-Social Circle-Augusta up until sometime in the 80s, non Amtrak

http://www.narprail.org/cms/index.php/narpblog/2008/08/

This is fascinating. Any idea on the passenger load of this service? Did they advertise in any way or was it simply by word of mouth? Was access to the passenger coach denied or was it optional since the coach offered no HVAC?

I rode the Georgia mixed one time from Atlanta to Augusta.. It functioned purely as a freight train and could leave hours early aa easily as it could leave hours late. It was in the Amtrak timetables, I think eventually they put some kind of warning in their about the punctuality.

I did ride in the coach, the crew also let me in the caboose for while. A four hour schedule it took us ten hours to get there. No food,no running water, no electrictiy, filhy with pollen,no sweeper,no nothing.

But it was a mood thing, you knew what to expect, like going camping vs a hotel.. They usualy had 4 or 5 passengers per month nearly aways faaminmg at he mouth railrans from all over the world..

I caught it out in the yards adjacent to the MARTA east line. The crew made sure I knew what I was getting in for.

 

[MikefromCrete]

The reason the Georgia Railroad continued to operate this mixed train was that its state charter required it to offer passenger service. Eventually the requirement faded away, either because of a change in the law, a new interpretation of the law or that fact that the Georgia was merged into CSX.

 

[George Harris]

If I recal correctly, the Georgia Railroad mixed trains were run because of some peculiarity of Georgia state law going back to the beginning of the Georgia Railroad. As long as they offered passenger service, they had some significant break in state and possibly local taxes. As a result, they had mixed trains on all their lines.

Just recently I got a 1957 L&N Nashville Division employee timetable. In it they labeled trains on some of the branches as mixed even though they did not appear in the passenger timetables at all.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

If I recal correctly, the Georgia Railroad mixed trains were run because of some peculiarity of Georgia state law going back to the beginning of the Georgia Railroad. As long as they offered passenger service, they had some significant break in state and possibly local taxes. As a result, they had mixed trains on all their lines.
Just recently I got a 1957 L&N Nashville Division employee timetable. In it they labeled trains on some of the branches as mixed even though they did not appear in the passenger timetables at all.

Something is going on there, George, about the timing. That is, 1957 is when the L&N took over NC&StL.

I have an October 1, 1957 L&N public timetable which does show the mixed trains you are talking about on page 20 and 21. My next L&N public timetable is December 1, 1957 and they are all gone.

So I think L&N cleaned house of them but the right hand did not know what the left hand was doing all at the same time.In time to get the books to match.

 

[wayman]

Should anybody not be quite sure what a "mixed" train is, it means a mix of passenger and freight.The "passenger " service on such a train is nearly always very minimal, coach only,no food, etc at least not normally. Usually only goes a very short branch line distance. Sometimes it meant passengers allowed in the caboose.
The concept is long since out of date, at least in the U.S. It was more meaningful back in the days when lots of roads were not paved, etc.

Oddly enough, I believe the Santa Fe Southern tourist trains between Santa Fe and Lamy also carry some freight, making them mixed trains.

Yes, that's correct. I took the Santa Fe Southern a few years ago, and there were several box cars, then a coach, then sort of flat-car/gondola-car for passengers, then another coach or two. I think there was some on/off-loading of freight during the two hours in Lamy while the passengers were having picnic lunches before their return to Santa Fe.

(I didn't stick around for the lunch and return ride -- I was the only passenger with a one-way ticket to Lamy, so I could catch the eastbound Southwest Chief later that afternoon. It's still possible, depending on the day of the week, to use the Santa Fe Southern as a connecting train. Or at least it was in 2007; schedules may have changed. When I said I wanted to buy a one-way ticket for this purpose, the ticket agent was extremely pleased to learn their train could be used for this purpose -- to his knowledge, nobody had done what I was doing for quite some time.)

 

[George Harris]

If I recal correctly, the Georgia Railroad mixed trains were run because of some peculiarity of Georgia state law going back to the beginning of the Georgia Railroad. As long as they offered passenger service, they had some significant break in state and possibly local taxes. As a result, they had mixed trains on all their lines.
Just recently I got a 1957 L&N Nashville Division employee timetable. In it they labeled trains on some of the branches as mixed even though they did not appear in the passenger timetables at all.

Something is going on there, George, about the timing. That is, 1957 is when the L&N took over NC&StL.

I have an October 1, 1957 L&N public timetable which does show the mixed trains you are talking about on page 20 and 21. My next L&N public timetable is December 1, 1957 and they are all gone.

So I think L&N cleaned house of them but the right hand did not know what the left hand was doing all at the same time.In time to get the books to match.

OK. I may have been wrong. I

 

[alanh]

Looks like the SFS schedule might work for departing Santa Fe -- they arrive at Lamy at 1:00pm Saturdays and 12 noon (1 hour from SAF) on Fridays in season. However, the layover is around an hour so they'll have left before Amtrak arrives, so you can't use it for going to Santa Fe.

 

[Bill Haithcoat]

Looks like the SFS schedule might work for departing Santa Fe -- they arrive at Lamy at 1:00pm Saturdays and 12 noon (1 hour from SAF) on Fridays in season. However, the layover is around an hour so they'll have left before Amtrak arrives, so you can't use it for going to Santa Fe.

And I am sure the SFS mixed train operates with much, much, much greater sense of punctuality than the old Georgia RR mixed did.

 

[Sam31452]

I have a 1948 Santa Fe timetable and it shows 1 mixed train roundtrip Lamy-Santa Fe (Mon-Sat) and 5 motor coach roundtrips that connect with the various trains through Lamy.

Eric, I got around to to my sources this morning and came up with the same info.

Should anybody not be quite sure what a "mixed" train is, it means a mix of passenger and freight.The "passenger " service on such a train is nearly always very minimal, coach only,no food, etc at least not normally. Usually only goes a very short branch line distance. Sometimes it meant passengers allowed in the caboose.

The concept is long since out of date, at least in the U.S. It was more meaningful back in the days when lots of roads were not paved, etc.

I guess most were gone by the 60's.Never, ever on Amtrak. ( and do not confuse freight with mail).

Southern Railway had "mixed" trains in the 70s AFAIK.