The Engine Switcharoo
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Acela150
Super Buff
Hotel power isn't available at WAS, not even on the upper level AFAIK. I also believe that their isn't enough space between tracks for a hotel power station. I think it's also a safety matter.
Thirdrail7
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480 standby power is available on just about all station tracks in Washington Terminal. However, hooking it up for the duration of the engine change would take entirely too much time, particularly with the onerous blur flag procedures.
When they know the swap will take time, they usually leave the inbound engine on. It is much quicker than taking the engine off, putting up another flag, hooking up the train to 480 and dropping the flag just in time for the outbound engine to arrive.
When they know the swap will take time, they usually leave the inbound engine on. It is much quicker than taking the engine off, putting up another flag, hooking up the train to 480 and dropping the flag just in time for the outbound engine to arrive.
Sorry I'm not familiar with this term. Could you explain?
ehbowen
Engineer
He is referring to the railroad "blue flag" procedures. A blue flag is placed to protect a train or cut of cars that men are working on or which cannot be moved for some other reason (such as being connected to live 480V power cables). If both ends of the train are "live" (as is the case in DC), both ends must be protected. A blue flag cannot be passed by a locomotive or any other rail vehicle at any time, for any reason. They must wait until the blue flag is cleared, and only the worker who placed the blue flag can clear the blue flag. Those are the rules in a nutshell as I understand them, but there may be additional requirements imposed in the hope of improving safety, hence the "onerous" procedures the poster referred to.
OK - so I'm still not convinced. Perhaps the means of doing so doesn't currently exist. Thinking in airplane terms, one of the first things they do after chocking the plane when it arrives at a gate is plug in a Ground Power Unit. Now the power that is keeping the lights on in the cabin is coming from the ground (shore/hotel) rather than from the batteries/alternators/generators on the aircraft. For the most part it's seemless. Sometimes, when it's the other way around (ie, preparing for departure), the lights will dim for a moment and the a/c shut off when the GPU is unplugged. But this isn't even close to everything turning dark and is sorta like turing the headlights off on your car to start your engine, just to concentrate the available power to where it needs to go (starting the engines).
Perhaps the infrastructure isn't there, but in my feeble mind, you can have power stations at the most likely end points of the train on the platform. Silver Meteor comes in from New York. Plug the train into hotel power (through the back of the train). Unhook & swap to diesel & hook up. Unplug hotel power. Diner gets their 30 minutes of cooking back, passengers don't have to be in the dark, air circulation continues, and my iPad can continue to charge!
Perhaps the infrastructure isn't there, but in my feeble mind, you can have power stations at the most likely end points of the train on the platform. Silver Meteor comes in from New York. Plug the train into hotel power (through the back of the train). Unhook & swap to diesel & hook up. Unplug hotel power. Diner gets their 30 minutes of cooking back, passengers don't have to be in the dark, air circulation continues, and my iPad can continue to charge!
The unwritten answer..."it is too much trouble"...LOL
Ryan
Court Jester
Can't attach and detach the power cables while the train is energized, so the process would be more like.
1. Show up
2. Power down.
3. Detach locomotives.
4. Attach ground power while locomotive drives away.
5. When new locomotive arrives, power down and disconnect ground power.
6. Attach new locomotives.
7. Restore power.
Now you've added time to the evolution and still have two different outages while the work is done. Not worth it.
1. Show up
2. Power down.
3. Detach locomotives.
4. Attach ground power while locomotive drives away.
5. When new locomotive arrives, power down and disconnect ground power.
6. Attach new locomotives.
7. Restore power.
Now you've added time to the evolution and still have two different outages while the work is done. Not worth it.
offroad437
Service Attendant
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Again falling into too much trouble but here is how it works on planes ( would require parts installed to work on Amtrak) plane pulls in to gate, power connected to a relay device that disconnects power from engines/battery. Then the engine is shut down. Same for reverse. The relay manages the power almost seamlessly.
Into every life a bit of inconvenience must fall. 
Coping is the truest form of maturity.
Coping is the truest form of maturity.
jis
Permanent Way Inspector
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Depends on how quickly the plane is turning around. If it is a short stop they quite often keep it powered by the APU and do not bother with ground power AFAICT. OTOH, for a long stop with maintenance involved, they not only connect to shore power, they even shut down the HVAC system and connect the thing upto a shore HVAC system using those funky big fat yellow conduits.
At Washington DC or Albany a typical engine change takes about 15 mins, of which half the time is spent in tinkering around with the locomotive present, either disconnecting things or connecting things. So you are left with say 8 mins. Connecting and disconnecting ground power would take another 2 to 4 mins leaving a net of 4 to 6 minutes for the train to be on ground power. Is that worth it? Maybe, maybe not.
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If that were truly the case, there would be no need for innovation.Into every life a bit of inconvenience must fall.
G
Guest
Guest
Scenerio for ground Power
1.Show up as train arrives,
2.Call K Tower to lock up switches for Blue Flag Protection
3. When confirmed put Blue lights in track front and rear.
4.Put Blue light in engine cab
5..Power Off
6. Detach locomotives cables, turn off air supplies
7.. call K tower and remove blue flag protection.
8. Take blue lights off track
9. Take blue light off engine
10. Turn off overhead lights
11. uncouple locomotive
12. wait for locomotive to clear track and switches
13. Call K Tower to lock up switches for Blue Flag Protection
14. When confirmed place blue light in track in front and rear.
15. Turn on Blue overhead lights
16. Attach Ground power cables at one end of consist
17. Loop 480 cables at other end of consist
18. Turn on Ground Power
19. Call K Tower give up Blue Flag Protection
20. Remove Blue lights from track
21.Turn off overhead lights.
21. Diesel Locomotive arrives
22. Couple up locomotive
23. Call K Tower to lock up switches for Blue Flag Protection
24. Put Blue lights in track front and rear. Put Blue light on engine
25. Turn on Blue overhead lights
26. Turn off Ground power
27. Detach Ground power cables
28. attach cables, brake hoses and main recseviour air to locomotive
29. Do brake test
30. Call K tower and give up Blue Flag Protection,
31. blue take lights out of track
32. turn off overhead blue lights
33. remove bue light from engine cab
33. Train can leave
Putting the train on ground power will likely lengthen the time the train is without power!
oldtimer
OBS Chief
Guest, you must speak from experience. This is the proper procedure to comply with FRA regulations as per CFR part 49 section 218.
I
inthegauge
Guest
Well, foamer, its all in the rulebook...
jis
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And as they say ... many of those rules, specially the ones having to do with "blue flag", were written in someone's blood. Running a real railroad is much different from running my HO setup in the back room
MikefromCrete
Engineer
It's fun to sit here and try to fix all of Amtrak's problems, but the real world is always more difficult that what we think can be done. I always thought that being a pharmacist would be fun since all you had to do was count pills, but of course, there is much, much more to that job. Running a railroad in the real world involves finding ways not to get killed. So the rules are important. Sorry if that means having the power off for longer than you think is necessary.
Really? Are you serious?
Procedure for an airliner coming in:
- Taxi to gate
- Plug in the ground power (most large airplanes have exceptionally larger power requirements than a typical train)
- Oh. That's about it.
Lights barely flicker. Air is circulating. No one even notices, it's so seamless. But ok. We'll just accept that the railroad still operates under 100-year old procedures and processes that can't be changed because "we've always done it that way".
Procedure for an airliner coming in:
- Taxi to gate
- Plug in the ground power (most large airplanes have exceptionally larger power requirements than a typical train)
- Oh. That's about it.
Lights barely flicker. Air is circulating. No one even notices, it's so seamless. But ok. We'll just accept that the railroad still operates under 100-year old procedures and processes that can't be changed because "we've always done it that way".
Thirdrail7
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VentureForth:
The funny thing about your post is your statement about 100-year old procedures and process that can't be changed because this is the way we've always done it. The truth is, nothing could be further from the truth. This stuff wasn't done 100 years ago. It was barely done 30 years ago. Such onerous rules have been building in the name of safety over time but they've become almost crippling in the last 10 years. The procedure that guest laid out only rose in the last 10 years or so. This is why when people comment about how quickly things were done years ago, most of us say the rules were completely different.
Besides, your comparison to a plane is unrealistic. When they chock the plane and put it on ground power, are they attempting to remove the engines from the wing? I suspect not. Trains are removing part of the consist and the FRA is quite insistent that people not get injured by mistake while they are in between equipment.
Again, this is a far cry from yesteryear where we used to couple on one end while uncoupling on the other end at the same time. If the equipment rolled, the employees would roll right with it. Employees were taught how to get on and off moving equipment as well. Try that now and you'll receive an astronomical fine. Washington Terminal and Penn Station Baltimore have overhead blue lights that allowed personnel to work on the equipment without putting a supplemental flag in the gauge at each end of the equipment. Some years ago, the FRA decided this longstanding practice was no longer good enough. If the procedures that Guest was kind enough to type up are not followed (and technically Guest never actually coupled up the new engine or re-looped the auxiliaries) in that order, the fines will flow.
These are NEW procedures. I watched a train go down recently, waiting for protection on an adjacent track. It's called a hold because the FRA decreed that only certain people are now allowed to "foul" a track and the procedure now requires paperwork and additional training. By the time the dispatcher was able to provide the "hold," it was entirely too late to save the train. Years ago, when the first train went by, the crew would have hopped off, gone between the equipment and had the whole procedure done in 2 minutes.
If that crew took that chance today and got caught by the FRA or something went wrong, things would get ugly and fast.
The funny thing about your post is your statement about 100-year old procedures and process that can't be changed because this is the way we've always done it. The truth is, nothing could be further from the truth. This stuff wasn't done 100 years ago. It was barely done 30 years ago. Such onerous rules have been building in the name of safety over time but they've become almost crippling in the last 10 years. The procedure that guest laid out only rose in the last 10 years or so. This is why when people comment about how quickly things were done years ago, most of us say the rules were completely different.
Besides, your comparison to a plane is unrealistic. When they chock the plane and put it on ground power, are they attempting to remove the engines from the wing? I suspect not. Trains are removing part of the consist and the FRA is quite insistent that people not get injured by mistake while they are in between equipment.
Again, this is a far cry from yesteryear where we used to couple on one end while uncoupling on the other end at the same time. If the equipment rolled, the employees would roll right with it. Employees were taught how to get on and off moving equipment as well. Try that now and you'll receive an astronomical fine. Washington Terminal and Penn Station Baltimore have overhead blue lights that allowed personnel to work on the equipment without putting a supplemental flag in the gauge at each end of the equipment. Some years ago, the FRA decided this longstanding practice was no longer good enough. If the procedures that Guest was kind enough to type up are not followed (and technically Guest never actually coupled up the new engine or re-looped the auxiliaries) in that order, the fines will flow.
These are NEW procedures. I watched a train go down recently, waiting for protection on an adjacent track. It's called a hold because the FRA decreed that only certain people are now allowed to "foul" a track and the procedure now requires paperwork and additional training. By the time the dispatcher was able to provide the "hold," it was entirely too late to save the train. Years ago, when the first train went by, the crew would have hopped off, gone between the equipment and had the whole procedure done in 2 minutes.
If that crew took that chance today and got caught by the FRA or something went wrong, things would get ugly and fast.
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For all the aspersions cast on Amtrak's Chicago staff, they routinely manage to hook trains into station power at Chicago Union Station. As far as I know, all Amtrak (and Metra) trains at CUS use station power because of the relatively poor ventilation of the covered platforms.
The lights going off for a few seconds, after station power is detached and before HEP kicks in, isn't a bug but a feature. It's the signal to passengers that, all announcements and anticipation aside, the train is really about to leave.
Mind you, Chicago Union Station is the terminal for every train serving it while Washington and Albany have through trains.
The lights going off for a few seconds, after station power is detached and before HEP kicks in, isn't a bug but a feature.
It's the signal to passengers that, all announcements and anticipation aside, the train is really about to leave.Mind you, Chicago Union Station is the terminal for every train serving it while Washington and Albany have through trains.
Ryan
Court Jester
Airliners are equipped with the circuitry to make this happen. Unless you're willing to replace or retrofit every piece of rolling stock, you can't compare the two.
Thirdrail7, Thank you for the explanation. I understand safety is the top point of regulation. Interestingly, people still manage to get hurt.
However, to say that swapping engines is akin to removing engines off a jet is just ... I won't say it.
Ryan, I understand (now) that the circuitry is different. I wouldn't imagine it being that difficult to update the architecture, but as we here all know, any redesign takes money and we all know that's in short supply.
How about we fit a pantograph to every diner? It could then feed the rest of the train while on electric and drop the panto during diesel ops...
Ok ok ok ... I'll stop.
However, to say that swapping engines is akin to removing engines off a jet is just ... I won't say it.
Ryan, I understand (now) that the circuitry is different. I wouldn't imagine it being that difficult to update the architecture, but as we here all know, any redesign takes money and we all know that's in short supply.
How about we fit a pantograph to every diner? It could then feed the rest of the train while on electric and drop the panto during diesel ops...
Ok ok ok ... I'll stop.
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Of couse, you would also have to equip the diners with high voltage transformers, rectifiers, inverters, circuit breakers and all the otter paraphernalia needed to get from the catenary power to usable power. There would be no room for a kitchen.
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