Southwest Chief discussion Q4 2023 - 2024

zephyr17 said:

You'd almost certainly keep the room. It wouldn't be returning as 3, 3 was annulled. So anyone booked on 3 that might have "your" room wouldn't be boarded.

My guess is since they didn't offer alternate transportation and your trip was effectively cancelled, you would be fully refunded.

As far as Amtrak goes, refunding all passengers, as they would have to do, would probably be more expensive than providing a bus bridge. For a bus bridge, coach passengers would be owed nothing. Sleeper passengers would be owed a partial refund of their accommodation charge for the missed segment, and they'd throw in a voucher and some AGR points for inconvenience if you pushed it. Cancelling and returning passengers to their point of origin feels penny wise and pound foolish to me.

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I wonder if in certain cases, just canceling and refunding the passengers is cheaper than providing hotels and/or arranging a bus bridge on short notice in a place where there aren't many buses or hotels available.

If this is starting to be regular policy, that's concerning and is something the RPA should be making a stink about with members of Congress, especially since the 2025 Amtrak appropriation is now working its way through..

I was an adult advisor for a 10-person Boy Scout Crew returning from Philmont (Raton NM) on Wed 7/24/24. There were two other crews with another 20 people on our school bus shuttle from Philmont ready to go home as well. We were encouraged all day to see that train 4 was on time. Then about 60 minutes before the train arrived (while we were grocery shopping for train snacks), I saw there was a service disruption, but no other explanation. We all then arrived at the Raton station and talked to Amtrak agents. At that point they only knew that there was a derailment near Dodge City KS. While talking with them, we all got the cancellation text from Amtrak. That put all three Boy Scout crews in panic mode trying to call Amtrak and also trying to figure out alternative transportation home.

There were few options for all of us in a town that doesn't have any car rentals available. Just getting from Philmont or Raton to a bigger metropolis was a huge issue.

After about 3 hours at the train station, Philmont had a shuttle school bus pick us up and return us all to Philmont (45 minutes south) to stay the night in tent city again. They did not charge us for those accommodations.

My crew considered Greyhound (~$300, two transfers, 33 hours after pickup mid-day R 7/25) but that would have been brutal. We only had three adults, one of which would not have wanted to drive a vehicle 18 hours on her own. So we needed to fit the ten of us and our giant packs in one or two vehicles. No 15 passenger vans were available even in Denver and the biggest vehicle otherwise was a Ford Edge. We didn't think we could fit into two of those. So driving was out. We did finally find Grey Lines, a coach bus company, and they had a coach bus that could bring us from Philmont to Denver Airport the next day for $200/person. We got a direct flight from Denver to Milwaukee on Southwest for $400/person. We ended up getting home at 1:15 AM, 5.5 hours later than we should have on Amtrak.

Amtrak refunded the $86 one way cost of the SW Chief / Hiawatha. I spoke with Customer Relations and the best they could do for me was a $300 one-time-use voucher. Not exactly easy to split amongst 10 people / 6 families. Anyone have any ideas on how to extract more compensation from Amtrak? With other expenses incurred, (like having to ship home our stoves and fuel bottles), this 'inconvenience' cost us $550/each.

The other crew with 9 people knew someone in Colorado Springs who drove down to Raton to pick up two adult advisors to bring back to Colorado Springs to rent two Ford Edges, to then turn around and drive to Philmont to pick up the scouts and the other adult advisor. They figured they would barely fit all nine of them and their packs into those two vehicles. They figured they would leave Philmont around midnight and drive straight through the night to arrive home in greater St. Louis late on Thursday.

The other crew of 11 people got a ride with us on our coach bus. We dropped them off in Pueblo where they had rented three vehicles. They had five adult advisors so they had plenty of coverage for driving. They were going to drive the rest of Thursday to Kansas City where they had friend's basement to sleep in for the night. Then finish the drive home to Iowa on Friday. Complicating matters for them is that they left all their vehicles in Fort Madison IA but they live in Waterloo IA. So retrieving their vehicles will add 3 hours to their drive home.

Amtrak really makes it hard to support them. They are obviously not to blame for the derailment. And there are complications for a bus bridge, including turning the trains and having fresh crews. But they are the transportation company! This is their profession! Instead they left all of us in the lurch in the middle of nowhere. They should be ashamed of themselves. I would not have expected them to get us home at the same time as the schedule. But they surely could have gotten us home. Two options off the top of my head: do a bus bridge to swap train loads of the 3 and 4 trains, which conveniently meet basically where the derailment was. We'd prefer coach buses but surely you could at the least find a couple dozen school buses to get the job done. Another option would be to do a long detour on other Class I railroads; Trinidad up to Denver and then take the CZ route to Chicago or the UP to Topeka. Then you just have to worry about passengers that get on/off in that middle segment that is being bypassed.

Thank you for this detailed account of what the Scout groups returning from the Philmont Scout Ranch on 7/24 had to go through as a result of SWC No. 4 being cancelled on short notice. Although Amtrak was not to blame for the derailment, there should have been some contingency plan in place to accommodate the Scouts. (Over the years, the large numbers of Scouts going to and returning from Philmont has provided Amtrak with a lot revenue.) If nothing else, the PR value of Amtrak “doing a good turn” for the Scouts by coming up with extra coaches on the next day’s No. 4 would have helped to counter some of bad PR it’s been getting lately due to late arrivals and outright cancellations which have left passengers stranded with no alternate transportation. Scout group leaders heading off to Philmont should pay heed to this incident and consider making contingency plans of their own so that they’ll be prepared in case they find themselves in this situation.

These accounts of Amtrak’s current handling of major disruptions are very disturbing. Dumping passengers in places far from home, and simply offering refunds, is unacceptable.
When you purchase a ticket, I believe Amtrak should be responsible to get you to your destination, one way or another, even when there is a disruption.
I am not certain if the “fine print” of the passage contract absolves them of that responsibility, but if so, it should be changed by legislation.
It may become a necessity to purchase travel insurance covering interruptions of service for future long distance trips…

Generally, I do not favor getting politicians involved in matters like this because often they can mess things up worse. But maybe this is one incidence when you contact your local congressman and have them advocate for you and it brings light on the larger issue of how Amtrak compensates. $300 for the entire group is ludicrous! Situations like this one creates a huge and challenging conundrum for Amtrak. It is a virtual impossibility to plan for every contingency, but certainly a bus bridge could have been a consideration here. You just cannot dump people in the middle of nowhere and say, "sorry, folks, you're on your own...here's a meagre voucher to split amongst your group for next time."

Amtrak is getting by with this behavior because management is not being held accountable. There is no cat around to keep the mice from playing up the bonus.

Certainly Amtrak could have handled this better. The compensation on their part is lacking no doubt. Situations like this remind me however, why it is I purchase robust travel insurance to at least make me financially whole, or close to it when meltdowns happen.

It looks like there was unplanned money shelled out in getting the scouts home. It's great that those financial resources were there, regardless who paid. Something to be greatfull for for sure. I'm sure there was at least a few random passengers on that train who had no financial margin of their own, and no one to fall back on for help.

One problem is the mainstream media doesn't pay enough attention to Amtrak and it's operational issues, like they do with the airlines. A camera or two in Mayor Pete's face over Amtrak disruptions, like what happens when the airlines have a meltdown would help shed some light. The amount of Amtrak cancellations I've seen this summer, on the network, outside of the Almighty NEC IMO has been worse than normal. Most due to equipment failures it seems, and not the freights just being freights. Not everything can be blamed on derailments or heat restrictions.

Not that it would happen for a whole host of reasons, but a part me would like to see an airline executive or two, go tell the govt to fix its trains before you start throwing stones at us.

TheVig said:

Not that it would happen for a whole host of reasons, but a part me would like to see an airline executive or two, go tell the govt to fix its trains before you start throwing stones at us.

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There is huge amount of irony in hoping that the airlines, who have been incessantly blamed over the years sometimes fairly, often unfairly for killing passenger rail, will now come to their rescue and ask to get the passenger rail fixed before complaining about airlines. Just sayin'

Does anyone here know what the state of the bus industry is? I don't, but like many I've read that:

(1) Greyhound's bus operation was bought by Flixbus while Greyhound's real estate operation is trying to get rid of all its remaining bus stations, and, more to the point,

(2) there's a severe shortage of truck drivers. Trucking companies are almost literally begging for drivers. I can't imagine there's not a corresponding shortage of bus drivers, which also requires a commercial driving license to operate a really large vehicle but doesn't involve dealing with passengers.

I would not be surprised if the bus business, especially suddenly ordering a fleet of buses for right bloody now, not necessarily near a major city, isn't in the same place it was say 10 years ago. Is that a possible explanation of why bus bridges were more common in past years, or need we always default to the tired meme that Amtrak management somehow derives joy from screwing passengers?

John Bredin said:

Does anyone here know what the state of the bus industry is? I don't, but like many I've read that:

(1) Greyhound's bus operation was bought by Flixbus while Greyhound's real estate operation is trying to get rid of all its remaining bus stations, and, more to the point,

(2) there's a severe shortage of truck drivers. Trucking companies are almost literally begging for drivers. I can't imagine there's not a corresponding shortage of bus drivers, which also requires a commercial driving license to operate a really large vehicle but doesn't involve dealing with passengers.

I would not be surprised if the bus business, especially suddenly ordering a fleet of buses for right bloody now, not necessarily near a major city, isn't in the same place it was say 10 years ago. Is that a possible explanation of why bus bridges were more common in past years, or need we always default to the tired meme that Amtrak management somehow derives joy from screwing passengers?

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The long-term Pacific Surfliner bus bridge between Oceanside and Irvine that was in place in 2023 was handled efficiently and professionally, so it can be done.

The Dodge City derailment which occurred last May should have served as a wake up call to plan for how to deal with such an occurrence happening again, leaving Scouts stranded in Raton. (If No. 4 was running again by the next day, arrangements could probably have been made to find space for them, even it involved adding an extra coach to the consist.)

While it is unlikely that Amtrak management derives perverse pleasure from stranding passengers, one does sometimes get the impression that they’re only proving rail passenger service because they’re obligated to and will only do the absolute minimum that is necessary. When something out of the ordinary occurs, it is easier to cancel a train and then make no further effort to assist those passengers affected. It is almost as if they are trying to discourage people from choosing to travel by train.

Eric in East County said:

The long-term Pacific Surfliner bus bridge between Oceanside and Irvine that was in place in 2023 was handled efficiently and professionally, so it can be done.

The Dodge City derailment which occurred last May should have served as a wake up call to plan for how to deal with such an occurrence happening again, leaving Scouts stranded in Raton. (If No. 4 was running again by the next day, arrangements could probably have been made to find space for them, even it involved adding an extra coach to the consist.)

While it is unlikely that Amtrak management derives perverse pleasure from stranding passengers, one does sometimes get the impression that they’re only proving rail passenger service because they’re obligated to and will only do the absolute minimum that is necessary. When something out of the ordinary occurs, it is easier to cancel a train and then make no further effort to assist those passengers affected. It is almost as if they are trying to discourage people from choosing to travel by train.

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That they can operate a long-term bus bridge in the densely-populated part of California between L.A. and San Diego doesn't necessarily mean they can operate a sudden bus bridge in the middle of the prairies.

As I recall Amtrak California has dedicated buses for Thruway routes, so they have a fleet of buses and drivers at hand that they don't in the low-population cornfields and cattle land between Omaha or Lincoln and Denver or between Kansas City and Albuquerque.

Did the scout leader who posted here describe any efforts to take the next #4? I think he described only efforts to find a non-rail alternative. Maybe he did ask Amtrak about the next day's train and they said no because it was full, in which case your point would stand, but his post doesn't say so.

Amtrak management trying to discourage people from choosing the train is only slightly less absurd than actively deriving pleasure from stranding people. Again, you're presuming that doing the absolute minimum is their choice, that they have the resources to do more but they don't.

The fact that they did bus bridges in the past when they had less money and were under more political pressure to reduce costs (including during presidential administrations that had little compunction about severely docking or even ending the long-distance routes) but don't do them now suggests that they're not blithely choosing not to do bus bridges.

"The Chief gains a full coach on Aug. 1 but loses a second sleeper in early September. The L.A.-Chicago train has struggled all year with one full coach and a coach-baggage. Unfortunately, the coach is coming off the Seattle section of the Empire Builder during the height of the summer tourism season."
https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...dedicated-sunset-through-cars-special-report/
(If this loss of the second sleeper does indeed happen, I'm glad I moved my September sleeper res in the 31 car to the 30 car!)

TinCan782 said:

"The Chief gains a full coach on Aug. 1 but loses a second sleeper in early September. The L.A.-Chicago train has struggled all year with one full coach and a coach-baggage. Unfortunately, the coach is coming off the Seattle section of the Empire Builder during the height of the summer tourism season."
https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...dedicated-sunset-through-cars-special-report/
(If this loss of the second sleeper does indeed happen, I'm glad I moved my September sleeper res in the 31 car to the 30 car!)

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Really interesting article overall. I love the insight into the logistics side of Amtrak.

John Bredin said:

Does anyone here know what the state of the bus industry is? I

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You might start your research, here…

https://las.depaul.edu/centers-and-...ublications/Pages/intercity-bus-research.aspx

Cal said:

Really interesting article overall. I love the insight into the logistics side of Amtrak.

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And telling that Cohen refused any comment on the speculation around the impending combining of Capitol Limited-Silver Star. That's confirmation enough for me!

TinCan782 said:

"The Chief gains a full coach on Aug. 1 but loses a second sleeper in early September. The L.A.-Chicago train has struggled all year with one full coach and a coach-baggage. Unfortunately, the coach is coming off the Seattle section of the Empire Builder during the height of the summer tourism season."
https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...dedicated-sunset-through-cars-special-report/
(If this loss of the second sleeper does indeed happen, I'm glad I moved my September sleeper res in the 31 car to the 30 car!)

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We now make our SWC reservations 11 months in advance specifically so we can be sure of obtaining bedrooms in the 330 and 430 cars.

If the SWC does lose the second sleeper in early September, what happens to those passengers who already have reservations in that sleeper? Will this be like 2022 all over again?

OP Boy Scout Adult Advisor here. All three scout groups tried to call Amtrak in the immediate aftermath of the cancellation. I was personally on hold for an hour before getting to anyone. I actually had two phones on my person; one holding for Amtrak and one for Amtrak Guest Rewards. AGR answered first, but was unable to do anything and transferred me to the customer service line. They were able to tell me that the next train available with the ten seats we required was in early August, more than a week away. At that point I gave up on Amtrak providing us transportation home. I had also heard from some Amtrak employee (do not recall in the chaos if it was the station staff or on the phone) that it was likely the next day's 4 would not be able to get through the derailment zone.

I don't think anyone really thinks Amtrak management get joy out of screwing customers. But there is also no evidence to suggest they lose sleep over it either. While the middle management that makes these day-to-day decisions may not have the resources to do better, the top brass surely have the resources to throw at issues like this.

As much as I want to support Amtrak, I will be writing my representatives about this ridiculous situation.

Eric in East County said:

We now make our SWC reservations 11 months in advance specifically so we can be sure of obtaining bedrooms in the 330 and 430 cars.

If the SWC does lose the second sleeper in early September, what happens to those passengers who already have reservations in that sleeper? Will this be like 2022 all over again?

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Recalling those stories from the past is why I proactively changed our car from 31 to 30. Our reservation is in mid to late September and was made in February.
I didn't want a surprise like that a week out from our trip!

When passengers are stranded in the middle of nowhere it would be better for Amtrak to cancel the next day's originators who can easily find other ways to make it to their destination. Now why couldn't Amtrak either leave a coach or 2 or add them to the next train going thru to handle riders who got left?

Why is removing cars still a possibility in late 2024?! We are nearly five years out from the beginning of the pandemic, and passengers are still being kicked out of accommodations they reserved long ago because Amtrak can't get it together enough to restore mothballed cars?! Absolutely inexcusable.

Kramerica said:

OP Boy Scout Adult Advisor here. All three scout groups tried to call Amtrak in the immediate aftermath of the cancellation. I was personally on hold for an hour before getting to anyone. I actually had two phones on my person; one holding for Amtrak and one for Amtrak Guest Rewards. AGR answered first, but was unable to do anything and transferred me to the customer service line. They were able to tell me that the next train available with the ten seats we required was in early August, more than a week away. At that point I gave up on Amtrak providing us transportation home. I had also heard from some Amtrak employee (do not recall in the chaos if it was the station staff or on the phone) that it was likely the next day's 4 would not be able to get through the derailment zone.

I don't think anyone really thinks Amtrak management get joy out of screwing customers. But there is also no evidence to suggest they lose sleep over it either. While the middle management that makes these day-to-day decisions may not have the resources to do better, the top brass surely have the resources to throw at issues like this.

As much as I want to support Amtrak, I will be writing my representatives about this ridiculous situation.

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OP, thank you for this additional information on your attempts to get new Amtrak reservations for your Scout group after yours were cancelled due to the derailment on 7/24.

An important function of the Southwest Chief is to provide long-distance transportation for people located between Albuquerque and Kansas City. In addition to your group, there were undoubtedly many others (groups of Amish folk for example) whose travel plans were disrupted. A contingency plan should have been in place to accommodate those passengers affected by the derailment.

It is good that you plan to write your representative so that the details of what happened to your Scout group will be known. (There are undoubtedly many others who could write similar accounts but who won’t do so.)

FYI: my very first long-distance train trip was made with a Scout group traveling from Ohio to Colorado to attend a National Boy Scout Jamboree. That experience made me a life-long fan of train travel.

3 and 4 are cancelled between Albuquerque and Kansas City today due to a freight derailment.

alanh said:

3 and 4 are cancelled between Albuquerque and Kansas City today due to a freight derailment.

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With no alternate transportation provided.

How many times has this happened this summer? And they can't get busses in Kansas City or Albuquerque?

alanh said:

3 and 4 are cancelled between Albuquerque and Kansas City today due to a freight derailment.

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I’m assuming that 3 will return to CHI and 4 will return LAX and that those who want to go back there can do so at no extra charge and will be entitled to a full refund of the cost of their tickets. (Sleeping car passengers should also get free meals during the trip back.)

As stated in an earlier post, if this happened to us while we were on No. 4, we would opt to return to LAX, enjoying the ride in our bedroom and also enjoying the meals we were served. Rather than asking for a refund, we would contact Amtrak Customer Relations (not Customer Service) and have them reschedule our trip. We’d probably reschedule it to 2025 so that we could be sure of obtaining bedrooms in the 330 and 430 “base” sleepers. In addition to the free train ride to Albuquerque and back, our trip in 2025 would only cost us what we’d paid when we originally made our reservation 11 months before the departure date of our cancelled train. By 2025 the cost of a bedroom will undoubtedly be more than what we originally paid, so we'll make out OK.

Our hearts go out to those who had been hoping to board Nos. 3 and 4 between Kansas City and Albuquerque and who now are without transportation.

On 7/24, train 4 was at the Raton station for 15+ minutes. I don't know what it was doing, but I presume that since it was the first station after the announced cancellation, that it waited there to make sure its orders were correct before leaving us chumps there who foolishly thought we'd be provided transportation.

It is like that Seinfeld bit about car rental reservations: "See, you know how to take the reservation. You just don't know how to hold the reservation. And that's really the most important part of the reservation, the holding. Anybody can just take 'em!"