WiFi on longer routes

jis · Sep 13, 2024

United Airlines just struck a deal with Starlink to provide terrestrial quality WiFi on flights at no cost to the passengers starting 2025.

https://apnews.com/article/united-a...nternet-wifi-088d76af3fcca0b9108ced8b2ee19470

Allegedly one would be able to stream stuff to one's heart's content, something that you can;t quite do at present.

On terrestrial service like Amtrak a combination of terrestrial cellular and Starlink would be needed for best result since trains go through places where satellite visibility is minimal to non-existent. But for most of the route of a train like the EB across the high plains Starlink would work wonders. I hope Amtrak considers this possibility.

I know Indian Railways provides WiFi via Satellite Link, specifically select trains like Howrah Rajdhani. I suspect the connection just drops when it passes through three short tunnels that the train via Grand Chord passes through. There will be issues like that in almost every train in the US. Hence the need for providing blended carrier service.

Devil's Advocate · Sep 13, 2024

jis said:
Allegedly one would be able to stream stuff to one's heart's content, something that you can;t quite do at present.

Delta deployed streaming grade Internet domestically in February 2023. European and South American deployment is in progress with Africa scheduled this winter and Asia next year. Latency is obviously a factor but I was able to stream and download videos without much issue.

bonzoesc · Sep 13, 2024

jis said:
On terrestrial service like Amtrak a combination of terrestrial cellular and Starlink would be needed for best result since trains go through places where satellite visibility is minimal to non-existent. But for most of the route of a train like the EB across the high plains Starlink would work wonders. I hope Amtrak considers this possibility.

I think for the long-distance routes (CZ, EB, Silver services) "no internet in tunnels" would be a pretty good compromise.

Starlink works pretty well on Brightline, although that's not exactly a route with many tunnels.

Tracy_D · Sep 13, 2024

The technology is there! But I’m guessing the funding is not.

west point · Sep 13, 2024

bonzoesc said:
I think for the long-distance routes (CZ, EB, Silver services) "no internet in tunnels" would be a pretty good compromise.

Starlink works pretty well on Brightline, although that's not exactly a route with many tunnels.

Probably only stations that have overhead canopy's? Such as MCO.

basketmaker · Sep 25, 2024

For the folks out there with mobile carriers that charge "roaming" fees/charges be careful. You may get a shocked on your bill. Years ago I didn't realize my phone was in roaming and uploading all the pictures to wherever the cloud is. Also 35mm digital camera with a wi-fi card was too. Folllowing month got my Sprint bill for $650.00. Luckily they worked with me and cut it in half. I did take 100's of pics in full resolution.

Devil's Advocate · Sep 26, 2024

I remember AT&T (Cingular) charging me over $300/mo for hometown data to use the first iPhone on EDGE (2G). I don't think domestic roaming is still an issue with flat rate post paid plans, but if you travel internationally without a global plan you can enable WiFi calling and disable chargeable roaming.

basketmaker · Sep 26, 2024

I agree. It was still in the roaming days this happened. Also you mentioned AT&T (Cingular) and thinking back on it that was the carrier. Sprint came in a bit later.

eackly · Sep 27, 2024

My wife needed to be on a conference call while she was on the train, timing was just bad as normally it could wait till she arrived.

Anyway, a neighbor of mine is a regional engineer for T-Mobile.

He suggested a setup to give us the best chance of good coverage and speeds.

A GL-iNet GL-X3000 paired with a Waveform Quad Mini external antenna.

We had service the entire ride from Winter Park to NY and speeds were decent to excellent, ranging from 8-50Mbps down and 2-30Mbps up.

My wife was able to have her conference call and we even streamed some YouTube TV.

Now it came at a high price over $600 for all the equipment, so probably not worth it depending on use case. In our case, my neighbor lent us his equipment, so we didn't have to pay for it, I am not sure what we would have done had we had to pay for it ourselves.

John Santos · Oct 2, 2024

Devil's Advocate said:
I remember AT&T (Cingular) charging me over $300/mo for hometown data to use the first iPhone on EDGE (2G). I don't think domestic roaming is still an issue with flat rate post paid plans, but if you travel internationally without a global plan you can enable WiFi calling and disable chargeable roaming.

I got nailed for Verizon international day charge as I slept near El Paso on the SL/TE. At some point we were a few hundred yards on the US side of the border, and my phone was asleep the entire time so I place no calls, sent no messages and did no web browsing through a Mexican cell tower. So if you have an international service, be sure to explicitly disable it before getting close to the border. (The charge seemed to have kicked in an hour or two east of El Paso while I was still asleep and the train was much farther from the border than we were in El Paso itself (west bound), so probably it's a good idea to disable it the night before at bed time.)

eackly · Oct 2, 2024

John Santos said:
I got nailed for Verizon international day charge as I slept near El Paso on the SL/TE. At some point we were a few hundred yards on the US side of the border, and my phone was asleep the entire time so I place no calls, sent no messages and did no web browsing through a Mexican cell tower. So if you have an international service, be sure to explicitly disable it before getting close to the border. (The charge seemed to have kicked in an hour or two east of El Paso while I was still asleep and the train was much farther from the border than we were in El Paso itself (west bound), so probably it's a good idea to disable it the night before at bed time.)

With most of the providers on their newer plans roaming in Mexico and Canada is included, so no extra roaming charges.

Older plans generally did not include roaming in Mexico and Canada.

acelafan · Oct 2, 2024

John Santos said:
I got nailed for Verizon international day charge as I slept near El Paso on the SL/TE. At some point we were a few hundred yards on the US side of the border, and my phone was asleep the entire time so I place no calls, sent no messages and did no web browsing through a Mexican cell tower. So if you have an international service, be sure to explicitly disable it before getting close to the border. (The charge seemed to have kicked in an hour or two east of El Paso while I was still asleep and the train was much farther from the border than we were in El Paso itself (west bound), so probably it's a good idea to disable it the night before at bed time.)

I had this happen to me years ago when Sprint was still around. I explained I was on the train and they dropped my roaming charges. Not sure if Verizon would do the same for you.

railiner · Oct 2, 2024

eackly said:
My wife needed to be on a conference call while she was on the train, timing was just bad as normally it could wait till she arrived.

Anyway, a neighbor of mine is a regional engineer for T-Mobile.

He suggested a setup to give us the best chance of good coverage and speeds.

A GL-iNet GL-X3000 paired with a Waveform Quad Mini external antenna.

We had service the entire ride from Winter Park to NY and speeds were decent to excellent, ranging from 8-50Mbps down and 2-30Mbps up.

My wife was able to have her conference call and we even streamed some YouTube TV.

Now it came at a high price over $600 for all the equipment, so probably not worth it depending on use case. In our case, my neighbor lent us his equipment, so we didn't have to pay for it, I am not sure what we would have done had we had to pay for it ourselves.

I didn’t know that you could connect an external antenna or other device to a modern cell phone. Could you explain this further?

JamesWhitcombRiley · Oct 2, 2024

Many passengers use their phone as a WiFi hotspot to their laptop. I always do this and have never used Amtrak WiFi. The $500 rig described is a cellular modem with WiFi plus a big cellular antenna than plugs into it. That plays the role of the phone. Additionally you can use its WiFi connection in your phone.

All these scenarios including Amtrak's rely on cell towers. Coverage maps of the three big networks show you might need two networks, but Androids are under $100 and you can just prepay monthly and stop anytime. (The coverage maps vary in their truthfullness.) I wouldn't count on roaming data. Google sells a phone that uses two networks, but as I recall it, not the third one. That would be Verizon, which has the most coverage over the U.S., and switches over for free to Rogers in Canada (and sometimes in Detroit!). Some areas just have no service, even on the East Coast, when away from highways and cities.

The idea that Amtrak's cellular WiFi can support a trainload of people when some are watching movies or playing high demand games is a no-go. There's no prioritization as far as I know. South Korea figured out cellular networks on underground public transit long ago, with many riders watching movies on their phones, directly on cellular without WiFi. Amtrak cellular perhaps could work if it paid to use more modems, or charged customers for data.

Another scenario uses the new satellite services. These are on ships, airplanes and Brightline, and work at your house if you don't have too much tree cover. Jis I think mentioned trees could be a problem on a train.

joelkfla · Oct 2, 2024

eackly said:
With most of the providers on their newer plans roaming in Mexico and Canada is included, so no extra roaming charges.

Older plans generally did not include roaming in Mexico and Canada.

On Boost, it depends on the plan. I think only the most expensive plan includes North American roaming.

zephyr17 · Oct 2, 2024

That is an issue generally near borders and somewhat unavoidable. I have had my phone switch to a Canadian tower at Many Glacier in Glacier NP which is many miles south of the border. Happily, my T-Mobile plan includes North American roaming.

eackly · Oct 3, 2024

railiner said:
I didn’t know that you could connect an external antenna or other device to a modern cell phone. Could you explain this further?

I saw that "JamesWhitcombRiley" responded already and he did a good job explaining the setup.

The GL-iNet Spitz AX (GL-X3000) is not a cell phone but a 5G cellular modem/router/Wi-Fi unit.
The Waveform Quad Mini is an omnidirectional antennae which is designed to be attached to various different 5G cellular modem/router units via specialized connectors (there is probably a technical term for them).

Essentially, the Waveform Quad Mini has suction cups which I attached to the train window, ran the cable to the GL-X3000 and after clicking connect in the GL-X3000 software, it connected to the T-Mobile network and I had service.

Devil's Advocate · Oct 3, 2024

These days I'm mainly seeing Starlink transceivers deployed for net access that was previously handled by cellular aggregators. Is there anything (besides money) that would prevent Amtrak from going in the direction of Starlink or Viasat for a national rollout? All the major US airlines seem to be on board with introducing faster WiFi speeds while Amtrak falls further behind. I've only ever seen a consumer grade Verizon Jetpack on the LD network.

alanh · Oct 3, 2024

The problem with Starlink is it requires a clear view of the sky, so cuts, trees, and tunnels are a problem.

Another issue is keeping a satellite lock. Airline satellite has issues in turbulence. It would take a heroic effort to keep a lock from a bouncing, swaying railcar.

railiner · Oct 3, 2024

A friend that has extensive telecommunication knowledge, predicted to me that in the near future, Elon Musk’s Starlink will replace most land based cell towers, and offer sat-phone service to the masses. He will work with current providers to use land towers where satellite coverage couldn’t cover, in a seamless combined service.

west point · Oct 3, 2024

so now put all eggs into satellite communications? Oh, the stupidity.

Bob Dylan · Oct 4, 2024

railiner said:
A friend that has extensive telecommunication knowledge, predicted to me that in the near future, Elon Musk’s Starlink will replace most land based cell towers, and offer sat-phone service to the masses. He will work with current providers to use land towers where satellite coverage couldn’t cover, in a seamless combined service.

Be careful what you ask for, you might just get it!( seeTesla,X,Space X, Boring etc etc)

jebr · Oct 4, 2024

railiner said:
A friend that has extensive telecommunication knowledge, predicted to me that in the near future, Elon Musk’s Starlink will replace most land based cell towers, and offer sat-phone service to the masses. He will work with current providers to use land towers where satellite coverage couldn’t cover, in a seamless combined service.

I highly doubt this will happen, at least with any reasonable definition of "near future."

Starlink is partnering with T-Mobile to provide cellular connectivity via satellite in areas where towers don't reach, but the bandwidth allocated to this is small. They're starting with text, with hopes that call and very basic data usage will be available at some point in the future. There's competing companies trying to do something similar with AT&T and Verizon, but those aren't as far along and have similar limitations.

One of the biggest problems with replacing cell towers with satellite connectivity, other than the obvious issue of needing a view of the sky (so indoor coverage would be basically nonexistent,) is that satellites simply cannot provide as much bandwidth over a given area as a dense cell tower network can. In many areas, especially cities and suburbs, the limiting factor with the cell phone network is capacity, not raw coverage. Networks are densifying rapidly, both to provide bandwidth for everyone streaming and chatting, and to be able to upsell people to their home internet solutions. Satellite networks simply can't do that - their sectors are much too large to be able to densify and provide the amount of bandwidth people expect. Maybe there'll be some major leap in technology that changes this, but even Starlink doesn't have the capacity to meaningfully compete against most wired and cellular ISPs - they're basically competing against other satellite companies and the edge cases where cellular doesn't have capacity yet and the wired options don't exist or are quite poor.

UhClem · Oct 5, 2024

John Santos said:
I got nailed for Verizon international day charge as I slept near El Paso on the SL/TE. At some point we were a few hundred yards on the US side of the border, and my phone was asleep the entire time so I place no calls, sent no messages and did no web browsing through a Mexican cell tower. ...

With smart phones, you may not be explicitly browsing, but your background services may be connecting to your servers. Think email, it will be checking for new mail periodically. So best to shut off cell service if you think you might have an issue.

I have an old AT&T plan, which evidently does not include CA and Mex roaming anymore. On some recent cruises I had to manipulate things accordingly.
Normally I get a text when it roams, and I quickly shut if off, and haven't been caught out by any charges.

John Santos · Oct 5, 2024

UhClem said:
With smart phones, you may not be explicitly browsing, but your background services may be connecting to your servers. Think email, it will be checking for new mail periodically. So best to shut off cell service if you think you might have an issue.

I have an old AT&T plan, which evidently does not include CA and Mex roaming anymore. On some recent cruises I had to manipulate things accordingly.
Normally I get a text when it roams, and I quickly shut if off, and haven't been caught out by any charges.

My Verizon "International on demand" feature (I forget what it is actually called) has a feature to disable international roaming, but you have to explicitly disable it. Since I wasn't planning to cross the border (and never actually did), it never occurred to me to disable it.

I was going to spend 2 weeks in Canada for work (the previous year), and at the time this was the cheapest way to get cell (including data) service in Canada for a short period of time. They had various plans with various features, but the cheapest for my purposes was a plan that cost $5 or $10/day with unlimited minutes and lots of data in Canada and Mexico, and only charged you if you "used" it. There were other plans that were cheaper per day or per minute or per gigabyte or worked in many more countries, but for two weeks in Canada, this was the cheapest. The more extensive plans had minimum monthly charges, etc., which was zero for the plan I signed up for.

I just wanted to warn people traveling near the borders that their international calling plan might kick in without them knowing until they got the bill. (I noticed it had happened the next day because I happened to look at the Verizon app on my phone, but I could easily have not noticed.) It was only $5 or $10 for one day, but if I spent a week or two in southern Texas, it could have added up.

WiFi on longer routes

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