What happens on the train when it is twelve hours late?

west point · Oct 23, 2024

Crew legality would almost disappear on those routes that can support a 2nd train about 12 hours different that the first train. Note there are very few problems on the east coast Florida trains including Palmetto and Auto Train.
As far as equipment turns do not expect any relief before 2035 - 2040 when spare sets could become available. For Superliners that would be one in LAX, SEA, & CHI. If Sunset becomes daily NOL will be covered with the very long layover of CONO equipment. For single level it would be CHI, SSY, MIA. WAS might be a good location in case of a needed short turn of single level LD trains.

Harmon Shay · Oct 23, 2024

First, Mr. Batuello's description of a trip on an Amtrak sleeper is the best I've ever heard! Meanwhile, on the subject of the three Capitol Limited Superliner sets, I forgot that Chicago doesn't have a spare set. So one of the Capitol Limited sets would become a spare set for Chicago, the second would become a spare for Seattle to eliminate the super-tight equipment turn issue there, at least for the Seattle section, and the third Capitol set would either do the same in LA for extra-late Coast Starlights and Southwest Chiefs, or instead help provide a cut-out Chicago-Denver coach and sleeper on the California Zephyr. I know that Amtrak has run local Chicago-Kansas City coaches fairly recently, but if it decides to just keep the whole Southwest Chief at three coaches, that might not be necessary anymore. With all of the above adjustments, though, I can't see any way to get the second coach back on the Empire Builder Seattle section, short of those shunt enhancers being approved by the FRA for the Illini and Saluki. Then Amtrak would have to find or divert enough Venture or Horizon cars to replace the five or six Illini-Saluki Superliners it would take to restore the Seattle coach line. I'm assuming that Amtrak management has decreed that all Amfleet I coaches are now assigned to the Northeast, Empire, Downeaster and Virginia corridors, period, with only a few food service cars venturing (pardon the pun) west.

zephyr17 · Oct 23, 2024

Harmon Shay said:
The equipment solution would be in the Capitol Limited Superliner sets coming out of that rotation November 10th.
The National Weather Service and other forecasters, as I understand it, are predicting a really cold, nasty winter across at least the northern part of the country this year, apparently more so than usual. That would lead to more equipment delays and speed restrictions.
Amtrak needs to prevent Forest Gumping whenever it can, and this equipment realignment could give it the ability to do so. And Amtrak really needs to improve its credibility right now, seems to me.

1. The equipment is needed to restore consists to previous sizes, not sit around. As noted before, the actual track record of the Builder turns this year is not particularly bad, is pretty normal, and was far, far worse in the period around 10 years ago.

In light of the absence of an actual crisis on Builder turns, the use of those released cars could be:
5 of 6 coaches restoring second Seattle coach to the Builder. It always ran 2 year round prior to COVID.
5 of 6 sleepers to restore second sleeper to the SW Chief which always ran 2 prior to COVID.
3 diner/lounges to restore at lease Flex(

) to the CONO rather than only cafe food available on it now. Naturally, since the diner/lounges are capable of supporting traditional, I'd prefer that.

The coach and sleeper left over? You can allocate those.

2. I ski and live in a state served by the Builder. I am familiar with winter weather and predictions because I am invested in it. So far this coming winter prediction looks like those 2 and 3 years ago with a La Nina pattern. This last winter was exceptionally mild. This winter doesn't look to be mild, but not abnormal.

3. Amtrak never had a lot of credibility to restore and it has, shall we say, a target rich environment, if it were to try to gain some. Probably the biggest one, a more assertive approach with the hosts on OT performance, they seem to actually be doing. Making an honest attempt at improving the quality and consistency of onboard service is another.

Washing the damned windows.

There are a lot of things they could try to improve to gain credibility. Building a protection pool when they don't have the cars for it by maintaining artificially short consists is not one of them.

Harmon Shay · Oct 23, 2024

zephyr17 said:
1. The equipment is needed to restore consists to previous sizes, not sit around. As noted before, the actual track record of the Builder turns this year is not particularly bad, is pretty normal, and was far, far worse in the period around 10 years ago.

In light of the absence of an actual crisis on Builder turns, the use of those released cars could be:
5 of 6 coaches restoring second Seattle coach to the Builder. It always ran 2 year round prior to COVID.
5 of 6 sleepers to restore second sleeper to the SW Chief which always ran 2 prior to COVID.
3 diner/lounges to restore at lease Flex() to the CONO rather than only cafe food available on it now. Naturally, since the diner/lounges are capable of supporting traditional, I'd prefer that.

The coach and sleeper left over? You can allocate those.

2. I ski and live in a state served by the Builder. I am familiar with winter weather and predictions because I am invested in it. So far this coming winter prediction looks like those 2 and 3 years ago with a La Nina pattern. This last winter was exceptionally mild. This winter doesn't look to be mild, but not abnormal.

3. Amtrak never had a lot of credibility to restore and it has, shall we say, a target rich environment, if it were to try to gain some. Probably the biggest one, a more assertive approach with the hosts on OT performance, they seem to actually be doing. Making an honest attempt at improving the quality and consistency of onboard service is another.

Washing the damned windows.

There are a lot of things they could try to improve to gain credibility. Building a protection pool when they don't have the cars for it by maintaining artificially short consists is not one of them.

We'll have to agree to disagree on the Seattle turn. I certainly do agree with you on getting more forceful with the host railroads regarding Amtrak performance and washing car windows (I think the redone Seattle car washer is just about ready to go back into service if it isn't there already). And I've been seeing, and have experienced, mostly surprisingly good reports on onboard service for the last year or two. Let's hope that continues.

Brian Battuello · Oct 23, 2024

Typical Amtrak. Waiting years for a car washer to be built, presumably at huge expense, instead of hiring two guys with squeegees on a stick. In years past, I've seen the squeegee guys in Denver and in Santa Fe. Maybe we were supposed to tip them.

zephyr17 · Oct 23, 2024

Brian Battuello said:
I've seen the squeegee guys in Denver and in Santa Fe.

Um, Albuquerque. Amtrak does not serve Santa Fe and Lamy is a stop and scoot stop.

zephyr17 · Oct 23, 2024

Brian Battuello said:
Typical Amtrak. Waiting years for a car washer to be built

They wouldn't have been in the position had they not deferred maintenance on their washracks and kept them up. All of their washracks ultimately broke down, except the one in LA.

Bob Dylan · Oct 23, 2024

zephyr17 said:
Um, Albuquerque. Amtrak does not serve Santa Fe and Lamy is a stop and scoot stop.

No doubt he means Albuqurque!

Harmon Shay · Oct 23, 2024

Brian Battuello said:
Typical Amtrak. Waiting years for a car washer to be built, presumably at huge expense, instead of hiring two guys with squeegees on a stick. In years past, I've seen the squeegee guys in Denver and in Santa Fe. Maybe we were supposed to tip them.

I remember reading something about Seattle's washer definitely scheduled to reopen this fall. It seems like most of the really big ones all came up for major work at once, except of course for the construction-related mess at Sunnyside.

zephyr17 · Oct 23, 2024

Harmon Shay said:
I remember reading something about Seattle's washer definitely scheduled to reopen this fall. It seems like most of the really big ones all came up for major work at once, except of course for the construction-related mess at Sunnyside.

I've heard the same. As of last week at least the Talgo used for the 516-519 train pair was still filthy, though

AmtrakBlue · Oct 23, 2024

The Seattle turn in the last 30 days doesn’t look bad to me.

https://juckins.net/amtrak_status/a...=schDp&sort_dir=DESC&co=gt&limit_mins=&dfon=1

Harmon Shay · Oct 23, 2024

zephyr17 said:
I've heard the same. As of last week at least the Talgo used for the 516-519 train pair was still filthy, though

I'll see if I can find out something.

Harmon Shay · Oct 23, 2024

AmtrakBlue said:
The Seattle turn in the last 30 days doesn’t look bad to me.

https://juckins.net/amtrak_status/archive/html/history.php?train_num=8&station=Sea&date_start=09/23/2024&date_end=10/23/2024&df1=1&df2=1&df3=1&df4=1&df5=1&df6=1&df7=1&sort=schDp&sort_dir=DESC&co=gt&limit_mins=&dfon=1

I forgot to mention far-more-frequent crew replacement and long crew rest issues, which are now a greater part of the problem of keeping these long distance trains on time.

west point · Oct 23, 2024

One big item about the Seattle car washer. SEA very seldom goes below freezing temps. That will mean at least the consist can be washed at SEA if CHI weather is too cold to wash the consist. The same for Oakland and LAX. Also NOL and MIA.

Cal · Oct 23, 2024

zephyr17 said:
I don't know about the Zephyr's OBS crew turn in Oakland.

They come in in the evening on #5 and leave the next morning on #6.

jis · Oct 24, 2024

Cal said:
They come in in the evening on #5 and leave the next morning on #6.

Is the CZ crew Oakland based or Chicago based?

Brian Battuello · Oct 24, 2024

Santa Fe, Albuquerque. Gotta cut back on the trips down the SSL stairs.

zephyr17 · Oct 24, 2024

jis said:
Is the CZ crew Oakland based or Chicago based?

Chicago

MARC Rider · Oct 24, 2024

I don't know about this Seattle wash rack business. Last year I took the Builder from Seattle. It came into Seattle hours late, and they turned it really quickly, and I guess the windows didn't get washed, but I didn't think the windows were very dirty and had no problems enjoying the scenic views.

On the other hand, sure, they washed the dome windows on the Canadian in Jasper, but with it snowing as we went through Yellowhead Pass, they shouldn't have bothered.

CraigInNC · Oct 24, 2024

If you are on a long LD trip, the easy way to solve the food situation is to bring some emergency provisions with you. I was on the SW Chief 10 years ago and was so delayed that I spent an extra night in Kansas City MO. No big deal as the hotel was within walking distance of the train station and I had a rental car. If I am going to do LD anything west of Chicago I am going to have my stash if only to supplement the onboard menus that may or may not be as satisfying to me. I have only been on a couple of trains that were so severely late that they passed out food and neither time was Dinty Moore stew over rice - IIRC it was a snack box with crackers nuts some kind of cheese meat packet etc. They opened up non-alcoholic drinks to one per person. Just like driving 8+ hours in a car you have to be ready for contingencies.

zetharion · Nov 1, 2024

zephyr17 said:
The Builder turns at Seattle and Portland never were entirely realistic. But most of the time the worst effect is they go out a just a couple hours late, which is not great, but not catastrophic either. Since the January 1st, it left Seattle more than 2 1/2 hours late 12 times, and more than 4 hours late just 4 times. The 10 and 11 pm departures are attention grabbing but uncommon (just two that late).

The equipment is needed to try to get the consists closer to back where they were in 2019, which I do not consider an expansion but a restoration of minimums. The Builder lost its recently restored and badly needed second Seattle coach in August. The SW Chief recently lost its second sleeper. The Zephyr and the Starlight both operated with three standard sleepers plus a transdorm in peak season. They operated with three and four coaches in peak periods The Sunset had a transdorm in addition to at least one standard sleeper.

In light of the general Superliner equipment shortage, keeping extra consists seems like using an ax as a flyswatter.

With all that said, I would hope that any new LD order includes more robust protection equipment, though I do not hold out great hopes for that. Until then, "delayed departure due to late inbound equipment" is just a sorry fact of life.

Where did all the equipment that was removed from the consists go? Please don't tell me they went to storage or "perpetual maintenance."

zephyr17 · Nov 1, 2024

zetharion said:
Where did all the equipment that was removed from the consists go? Please don't tell me they went to storage or "perpetual maintenance."

"All" 5 coaches released from the Empire Builder went back into the national Superliner pool. I seem to recall they may have gone to the SW Chief.

The 5 sleepers released from the SW Chief reportedly went to the Auto Train.

Amtrak25 · Nov 2, 2024

My guess is the 6 Capitol Ltd coaches will go either to the Empire Builder Seattle section or the Denver Ski train.

What happens on the train when it is twelve hours late?

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