A Tale of Two Cities

[Metra Electric Rider]

We took a lot of ferries in Europe at various times; most notoriously the M/S Estonia Stockholm to Talinn and back. But also Oslo-Kiel, various Germany-Denmark and Denmark-Sweden ferries (no bridges at the time) both on rail and road (well, car or not even car) trips.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

That the ferries were so cheap, as low as £1 for passengers without cars, was fun, and seeing the chalky cliffs. We met people on a Sunday in a pub after walking south through the Greenwich Tunnel in London, and a fairly long ways after that. They were having their Sunday Belgian ale day, which was a little unfortunate, because the main appeal over British ale is the high alcohol content. They were friendly, and invited us on a ferry booze cruise to the Continent via automobile, but among other considerations, I figured our U.S. passports would not go well with the scheme. We were using the Best Beer book, or whatever it was called, as a guidebook to southern England, so I guess these things were to be expected. It was the book that gave a star for pub food (ok, pizza allowed), darts, fireplace, off-brand beer, etc. Ah, it was all good, as they say now.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

My father had a colleague (Welsh) who met his wife (German) on the Dover-Calais ferry - we're probably getting way off topic here. And for our EuroFriends, you might remember Style in '86 Eurovision.

 

[Willbridge]

Besides the 1970 Hoek<>Harwich round-trip that I've written about previously, in that same year a friend and I took the DFDS ferry overnight from Copenhagen to Aarhus. It seems to be gone now -- perhaps a victim of high-speed rail. Ditto with riding overnight from Hamburg to Copenhagen on the "Bird Flight Line" via the Puttgarden ferry. And we also rode the Copenhagen > Malmo ferry and the Malmo > Copenhagen "jet boat." There's a lot of water in Northern Europe.

Also, in 1970 I set up a trip for my Army project partner and his wife. It included London > Paris on the Night Ferry. He said the ferry segment was the smoothest part of the ride.

 

[cirdan]

Ditto with riding overnight from Hamburg to Copenhagen on the "Bird Flight Line" via the Puttgarden ferry. And we also rode the Copenhagen > Malmo ferry and the Malmo > Copenhagen "jet boat." There's a lot of water in Northern Europe.

The number of ferries in Northern Europe is in continuous decline as they are being replaced by bridges and tunnels. So it's a case of ride them while you still can.

Thru services via Puttgarden are presently suspended in connection with construction of the tunnel. You can still travel the route using a train plus bus bridge plus pedestrian passenger on the ferry though. Long distance trains go via the mainland route.

Another significant train ferry is the one between Sicily and mainland Italy. This may well turn out to be the last passenger train ferry still operating.

The Rostock to Trelleborg ferry no longer carries passenger trains, but may still carry freight. I'm not sure.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Besides the 1970 Hoek<>Harwich round-trip that I've written about previously, in that same year a friend and I took the DFDS ferry overnight from Copenhagen to Aarhus. It seems to be gone now -- perhaps a victim of high-speed rail. Ditto with riding overnight from Hamburg to Copenhagen on the "Bird Flight Line" via the Puttgarden ferry. And we also rode the Copenhagen > Malmo ferry and the Malmo > Copenhagen "jet boat." There's a lot of water in Northern Europe.

I believe DFDS still has an Oslo - Copenhagen ferry. We were planning a bucket list trip last year which had this as one alternative.

Concerning the "Night Ferry" from London Victoria, I took it in summer 1977. It had 2 sleepers (CIWL I believe), one to Paris and one to Brussels towed behind the EMUs, that were shunted aboard the ferry. Being a grad student on a tight budget (I had just finished my degree work and hadn't started my job yet) I had to settle for standard class which involved walking on and off the ferry to a connecting train at Dunquerque. I think I was on the Brussels section which was dropped at Lille and shunted to a train that took us to Metz. I had to change trains there to one headed for Frankfurt for my destination Kaiserslautern.

 

[Palmland]

A bit of research shows that a Rail/Ferry/Rail through routing is still available although a bit convoluted on the French side. In 1989 we took our sons on the 'grand tour', Our entrance into England was on a through train from Cologne that ended a few steps from the night ferry in Hook of Holland.

 

[caravanman]

Another significant train ferry is the one between Sicily and mainland Italy. This may well turn out to be the last passenger train ferry still operating.

That is one that is definitely on my bucket list, should be such fun to get shunted onto a ferry while aboard a train!

 

[cirdan]

While on the topic of the Night Ferry, here is a page with some very rare photos:

It is indeed odd to see continental stock in a British setting.

http://www.eastbank.org.uk/ferry.htm

And here is a daily mail article with some truly stunning photography

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...eal-night-train-London-Paris-used-loaded.html

(includes the wonderful caption: A chef gets to work in the busy kitchen of the London-Paris night train before serving the food in the dining carriage of the locomotive)

 

[Traveller]

That is one that is definitely on my bucket list, should be such fun to get shunted onto a ferry while aboard a train!

The views from the deck are worth it, and Sicily a fabulous island to visit. Traffic in Palermo is completely crazy, most exciting place I have ever driven!

 

[jis]

While on the topic of the Night Ferry, here is a page with some very rare photos:

It is indeed odd to see continental stock in a British setting.

http://www.eastbank.org.uk/ferry.htm

And here is a daily mail article with some truly stunning photography

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...eal-night-train-London-Paris-used-loaded.html

(includes the wonderful caption: A chef gets to work in the busy kitchen of the London-Paris night train before serving the food in the dining carriage of the locomotive)

Is that an SR Bulleid Pacific I see in the first photo?

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

While on the topic of the Night Ferry, here is a page with some very rare photos:

It is indeed odd to see continental stock in a British setting.

http://www.eastbank.org.uk/ferry.htm

And here is a daily mail article with some truly stunning photography

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/ar...eal-night-train-London-Paris-used-loaded.html

(includes the wonderful caption: A chef gets to work in the busy kitchen of the London-Paris night train before serving the food in the dining carriage of the locomotive)

Fascinating photos in both sets (second reminds me of photos I've seen of my dad during and after the war a bit, though they had emigrated by the early 50's) - so the trains, despite being in Southern territory were diesel (I spy the third rail and I think I see a few pickup shoes)? Were the lines electrified in France at that point - obviously not third rail?

 

[cirdan]

Fascinating photos in both sets (second reminds me of photos I've seen of my dad during and after the war a bit, though they had emigrated by the early 50's) - so the trains, despite being in Southern territory were diesel (I spy the third rail and I think I see a few pickup shoes)? Were the lines electrified in France at that point - obviously not third rail?

Some of the photos show class 33 diesels, whereas others show class 73 electro-diesels. Class 71 electrics were also used in the earlier years; and this was definitely the more typical situation. Class 71 was withdrawn in 1977, so in the final years of the train there would have been a mix of the other classes.

Also, on account of this being a night-time operation, there may have been nights that power was switched off for maintenance reasons, precluding the use of a class 71.

The Kent Coast line was electrified in 1961, replacing steam, with the third rail extending into the docks station. A diesel would have been needed to actually push the consist onto the ferry from there. A Class 09 would typically have been used for this, but there is also photographic evidence of class 33s doing the move.

On the French side, the line to Dunkirk was electrified in sections, being completed and energized in segments between 1958 and 1962. This was one of the earlier 25kV 50Hz electrifications (rather than 1500V DC). Again, there was a direct transition from steam to electric.

This would have been in stark contrast to the lines into Calais Maritime and Boulogne that day passengers would have seen. The Calais line remained steam hauled until very late. With steam being used into the early 1970s and then diesel. The line was also a good place to see the RTG gas-turbine sets, whose cousins also ran on Amtrak.

Is that an SR Bulleid Pacific I see in the first photo?

Indeed, a Merchant Navy class probably. It is in original condition with the "air-smoothed" casing, which contrary to popular legend was not fitted for aerodynamic purposes but to be able to wash the locomotive in the same facility that also cleaned passenger cars, thus providing automation and operational economies.

 

[BlackDiamond]

Some of the photos show class 33 diesels, whereas others show class 73 electro-diesels. Class 71 electrics were also used in the earlier years; and this was definitely the more typical situation. Class 71 was withdrawn in 1977, so in the final years of the train there would have been a mix of the other classes.

Also, on account of this being a night-time operation, there may have been nights that power was switched off for maintenance reasons, precluding the use of a class 71.

The Kent Coast line was electrified in 1961, replacing steam, with the third rail extending into the docks station. A diesel would have been needed to actually push the consist onto the ferry from there. A Class 09 would typically have been used for this, but there is also photographic evidence of class 33s doing the move.

When I took the Night Ferry in summer 1977 I distinctly remember riding in a set of the usual Southern Region "slam door" EMUs which ran non-stop from Victoria to Dover, with their characteristic traction motor whine.. I wonder if perhaps they ran as 2 sections with the Class 33 or 73 handling the sleepers and the EMU train for us steerage class passengers.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Some of the photos show class 33 diesels, whereas others show class 73 electro-diesels. Class 71 electrics were also used in the earlier years; and this was definitely the more typical situation. Class 71 was withdrawn in 1977, so in the final years of the train there would have been a mix of the other classes.

Also, on account of this being a night-time operation, there may have been nights that power was switched off for maintenance reasons, precluding the use of a class 71.

The Kent Coast line was electrified in 1961, replacing steam, with the third rail extending into the docks station. A diesel would have been needed to actually push the consist onto the ferry from there. A Class 09 would typically have been used for this, but there is also photographic evidence of class 33s doing the move.

On the French side, the line to Dunkirk was electrified in sections, being completed and energized in segments between 1958 and 1962. This was one of the earlier 25kV 50Hz electrifications (rather than 1500V DC). Again, there was a direct transition from steam to electric.

This would have been in stark contrast to the lines into Calais Maritime and Boulogne that day passengers would have seen. The Calais line remained steam hauled until very late. With steam being used into the early 1970s and then diesel. The line was also a good place to see the RTG gas-turbine sets, whose cousins also ran on Amtrak.



Indeed, a Merchant Navy class probably. It is in original condition with the "air-smoothed" casing, which contrary to popular legend was not fitted for aerodynamic purposes but to be able to wash the locomotive in the same facility that also cleaned passenger cars, thus providing automation and operational economies.

Thanks, interesting information. I assumed a shunter would be needed to get the cars onto the ferry since you couldn't easily do 3rd rail or catenary. A lot of the electrification was actually rather late on the continent wasn't it?

 

[jis]

Thanks, interesting information. I assumed a shunter would be needed to get the cars onto the ferry since you couldn't easily do 3rd rail or catenary. A lot of the electrification was actually rather late on the continent wasn't it?

South of Paris and around Paris is relatively old DC electrification. North of Paris in France is mostly 25kV 50Hz so probably post mid-50s. And of course all the LGV are 25kV too, and of course those are relatively very new.

Here is a good Wikipedia article on the history of the electrification of SNCF: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railway_electrification_in_France

 

[cirdan]

Thanks, interesting information. I assumed a shunter would be needed to get the cars onto the ferry since you couldn't easily do 3rd rail or catenary. A lot of the electrification was actually rather late on the continent wasn't it?

Yes they used shunters, steam and then later diesel.

An alternative method if you didn't want to use shunters would have been to use a cable to pull them onto the ship. I am not aware of this ever being done on ferries but it was done to move freight cars within factories and the like in locations were locomotives would have been undesirable due to the nuisance caused by emissions in an indoor location.

 

[lstone19]

This train made no stops between London and Paris. There were a couple of stations built in the UK for the service, but it seems Brexit and the new passport checks rendered them obsolete!

Brexit made no difference to passport checks. When the UK was in the EU, it was in one common area with continental Europe for Customs (inspection of goods) but it was never in the Schengen area which is one common area for Immigration (inspection of people). Pre-Brexit, when you travelled between the UK and continental Europe, you went through Immigration checks but were exempt from Customs inspection; today there is both.

This difference makes travel within Europe interesting as there are countries that are EU but not Schengen (e.g. Ireland plus pre-Brexit, the UK) and countries that are Schengen but not EU (e.g. Norway and Switzerland). Plus the European countries are not as anal about Customs as the U.S. and some other countries are so Customs is usually more of a "walk right by" unless you have something to declare or they ask you to stop and intra-Europe flights will have a mix of people who are subject to Custom inspection and those who aren't.

From a trip a few years ago, we flew from the U.S. to Frankfurt and then on to Stockholm. Immigration was cleared at Frankfurt as we entered the Schengen area (no inspection of bags and no need to claim bags and then recheck them). At Stockholm, after claiming bags, we went through Customs. It was nothing more than a sign saying if you had something to declare, go into the Customs office, otherwise if you had nothing to declare or were exempt, just walk by.

A few days later, it was train to Oslo. Norway not being in the EU, there was officially Customs arriving at Oslo but I never even saw a Customs office if we had something to declare. And two days after that, the DFDS ferry to Copenhagen. I did see Norwegian Customs watching people board at Oslo but at Copenhagen, again I did not see a Customs office. For the most part, they're looking for professional smugglers and just aren't concerned about the average tourist.

 

[caravanman]

Brexit made no difference to passport checks. When the UK was in the EU, it was in one common area with continental Europe for Customs (inspection of goods) but it was never in the Schengen area which is one common area for Immigration (inspection of people). Pre-Brexit, when you travelled between the UK and continental Europe, you went through Immigration checks but were exempt from Customs inspection; today there is both.

I don't recall that scenario myself, but my memory is unreliable these days. I seem to recall that we just freely boarded the Eurostar in London, and freely exited on arrival in Brussels? I gathered that the lack of immigration facilities at Ashford International and Ebbsfleet stations meant that they were no longer used, whereas pre-brexit, there seemed no need for those facilities?
No matter, I have both a UK and an EU passport, so I can pretend that I am a shady character at times.

 

[Bob Dylan]

I don't recall that scenario myself, but my memory is unreliable these days. I seem to recall that we just freely boarded the Eurostar in London, and freely exited on arrival in Brussels? I gathered that the lack of immigration facilities at Ashford International and Ebbsfleet stations meant that they were no longer used, whereas pre-brexit, there seemed no need for those facilities?
No matter, I have both a UK and an EU passport, so I can pretend that I am a shady character at times.

Perhaps your 2 Passports make it easier for you, but Americans always seem to have more hassles entering some Countries, including our own, especially since 911!

 

[jis]

I don't recall that scenario myself, but my memory is unreliable these days. I seem to recall that we just freely boarded the Eurostar in London, and freely exited on arrival in Brussels? I gathered that the lack of immigration facilities at Ashford International and Ebbsfleet stations meant that they were no longer used, whereas pre-brexit, there seemed no need for those facilities?
No matter, I have both a UK and an EU passport, so I can pretend that I am a shady character at times.

Waterloo International definitely had C&I facilities which I passed through several times. Each time I passed through St. Pancras International I did pass through some sort of inspection, outbound and a customs walk through inbound AFAIR. I don't know what happened at Ebbsfleet and Ashford since I have never used those for international travel. At present there appears to be no Eurostar service at those two stations anymore.

Perhaps your 2 Passports make it easier for you, but Americans always seem to have more hassles entering some Countries, including our own, especially since 911!

I have traveled from UK to France and back by trains+ ferry and Eurostar many times and my American Passport got me through fine with no hassles whatsoever.

Before I got Global Entry there were occasionally interesting questions asked by US CBP like "How come you travel so much?", but no real hassle. These days of course all you do is look at a camera and you are then cleared using facial recognition, and then just wave a "Hi" to the agent at the exit point, who looks at his screen and verifies that you have been cleared. It is another matter crossing the border by train though.

 

[MARC Rider]

Brexit made no difference to passport checks. When the UK was in the EU, it was in one common area with continental Europe for Customs (inspection of goods) but it was never in the Schengen area which is one common area for Immigration (inspection of people). Pre-Brexit, when you travelled between the UK and continental Europe, you went through Immigration checks but were exempt from Customs inspection; today there is both.

This difference makes travel within Europe interesting as there are countries that are EU but not Schengen (e.g. Ireland plus pre-Brexit, the UK) and countries that are Schengen but not EU (e.g. Norway and Switzerland). Plus the European countries are not as anal about Customs as the U.S. and some other countries are so Customs is usually more of a "walk right by" unless you have something to declare or they ask you to stop and intra-Europe flights will have a mix of people who are subject to Custom inspection and those who aren't.

From a trip a few years ago, we flew from the U.S. to Frankfurt and then on to Stockholm. Immigration was cleared at Frankfurt as we entered the Schengen area (no inspection of bags and no need to claim bags and then recheck them). At Stockholm, after claiming bags, we went through Customs. It was nothing more than a sign saying if you had something to declare, go into the Customs office, otherwise if you had nothing to declare or were exempt, just walk by.

A few days later, it was train to Oslo. Norway not being in the EU, there was officially Customs arriving at Oslo but I never even saw a Customs office if we had something to declare. And two days after that, the DFDS ferry to Copenhagen. I did see Norwegian Customs watching people board at Oslo but at Copenhagen, again I did not see a Customs office. For the most part, they're looking for professional smugglers and just aren't concerned about the average tourist.

I was looking at the US Stae Department travel website yesterday, and it said the Norway and Switzerland were part of the Schengen area. They also wrote that France was implementing temporary border controls with some of their Schengen neighbors. whatever that means.

My only experience with French border control was in 1972 at Orly Airport. Someone glanced at our passports, and after I retrieved my bags, I started to go to the customs guy, who waved me away with the clear message of "don't bother me." And I was a scruffy hippie looking kid who came in on a flight from Israel.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Waterloo International definitely had C&I facilities which I passed through several times. Each time I passed through St. Pancras International I did pass through some sort of inspection, outbound and a customs walk through inbound AFAIR. I don't know what happened at Ebbsfleet and Ashford since I have never used those for international travel. At present there appears to be no Eurostar service at those two stations anymore.


I have traveled from UK to France and back by trains+ ferry and Eurostar many times and my American Passport got me through fine with no hassles whatsoever.

Before I got Global Entry there were occasionally interesting questions asked by US CBP like "How come you travel so much?", but no real hassle. These days of course all you do is look at a camera and you are then cleared using facial recognition, and then just wave a "Hi" to the agent at the exit point, who looks at his screen and verifies that you have been cleared. It is another matter crossing the border by train though.

You can tell its been awhile since I've traveled abroad!( since before COVID)

But the biggest hassles I ever had crossing borders was coming into the US!( I used to get asked why I traveled Internationaly so much, especially when my brother was an International Fugutive!)

 

[cirdan]

I was looking at the US Stae Department travel website yesterday, and it said the Norway and Switzerland were part of the Schengen area. They also wrote that France was implementing temporary border controls with some of their Schengen neighbors. whatever that means.

The conditions of the Schengen agreement do allow countries to temporarily re-instate border checks if they have a good reason. The French seem to be more creative than others in making use of this right. They have been doing checks on and off for one reason or another for quite a few years now. First it was terrorism, then it was covid, then it was refugees. I understand Slovenia is also at present claiming to be enforcing checks on their land borders on account of the refugee situation there. However, a friend of mine who recently travelled that way said he did not notice any checks or increased police presence or alertness. So your mileage may vary.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

My only experience with French border control was in 1972 at Orly Airport. Someone glanced at our passports, and after I retrieved my bags, I started to go to the customs guy, who waved me away with the clear message of "don't bother me." And I was a scruffy hippie looking kid who came in on a flight from Israel.

Traveling in 1972 has more in common with 1954 than it does with 2024.

But the biggest hassles I ever had crossing borders was coming into the US!

I've had tedious and annoying entries into the US, but that's nothing compared to entering Canada as a Texan. Every other country was a cakewalk by comparison.