Acela 21 (Avelia Liberty) development, testing and deployment (2018 - 1Q 2024)

[Acela150]

Currently there are 6 sets on property. 5 of which are production units. The other is the test bed.

 

[west point]

5 production sets would allow for one at SSYD, one at Ivy City & one in PHL for back ups. Then run 2 NYP <> WAS to look for the unexpected problems.

 

[Acela150]

5 production sets would allow for one at SSYD, one at Ivy City & one in PHL for back ups. Then run 2 NYP <> WAS to look for the unexpected problems.

While that’s what makes sense in paper, keep in mind that the current fleet is falling apart. I saw a trainset in NYP on Thursday that was missing several basic exterior components.

3 sets are in Bear being used for parts for the current fleet.

 

[NE933]

Anything new to report in Acelaville?

 

[danasgoodstuff]

I think their deployment needs to be Acela-rated! Sorry.

 

[Acela150]

Anything new to report in Acelaville?

Nope. If I hear anything that I can say publicly I'll post as soon as I can. But it seems that the hold up is on Alstom side from my understanding. *This is NOT confirmed*

 

[Touchdowntom9]

Nope. If I hear anything that I can say publicly I'll post as soon as I can. But it seems that the hold up is on Alstom side from my understanding. *This is NOT confirmed*

You think at some point someone involved in writing up these deal terms would include penalties for missing timelines by half a decade. A year late is one thing but Amtrak should be getting a free trainset or two out of this.

 

[Brian Battuello]

I'm not an expert on large contract negotiations, but I suspect there is plenty of blame on both sides for unexpected issues and surprises. And if Amtrak insists on iron-clad delivery dates, it might further reduce the extremely small number of sellers. The rail manufacturers have lots of opportunities to sell cars worldwide. Amtrak has to buy cars here.

 

[Septa9739]

As a preface I think the Acela is a ton of wasted effort and I would have rathered Amtrak put the resources into having 18 car NER‘s run every 20 minutes between New York and Washington, so consider this biased, but… It seems that Amtrak thought all they had to do was buy new European equipment and toss it on old US tracks and they’d be golden and then realized that was a totally naive approach. To me it seems to be on them. On the other hand, SEPTA had no trouble getting late fines added to the contract for the Silverliner V and let me tell you Rotem did a much better job reupholstering old cars than they did building new ones. If Amtrak didn’t put it in, shame on them.

 

[GDRRiley]

As a preface I think the Acela is a ton of wasted effort and I would have rathered Amtrak put the resources into having 18 car NER‘s run every 20 minutes between New York and Washington, so consider this biased, but… It seems that Amtrak thought all they had to do was buy new European equipment and toss it on old US tracks and they’d be golden and then realized that was a totally naive approach. To me it seems to be on them. On the other hand, SEPTA had no trouble getting late fines added to the contract for the Silverliner V and let me tell you Rotem did a much better job reupholstering old cars than they did building new ones. If Amtrak didn’t put it in, shame on them.

It is not amtrak but Alstom who seemed to have though that, they worked on the first aclea and seems to have forgotten everything. Amtrak if it wasn't for a series of political moves would have gone with a new Pendilino based platform.
You can argue amtrak should have gone for the entire fleet being EMUs or Bi mode trains but no way amtrak wasn't going to keep some premium service on the corridor.

 

[jis]

It is not amtrak but Alstom who seemed to have though that, they worked on the first aclea and seems to have forgotten everything.

If the problem arises due to Jacobs trucks for example then this claim is unsustainable since they could not possibly have had experience with Jacobs trucks on NEC trackage from Acela Is. The Acela 21s are a vastly different beast from the Acela Is, in almost every aspect of the train..

Amtrak if it wasn't for a series of political moves would have gone with a new Pendilino based platform.

Could you provide credible evidence that this was the case? Or is this just your opinion? What specific "political moves" do you allude to here?

You can argue amtrak should have gone for the entire fleet being EMUs or Bi mode trains but no way amtrak wasn't going to keep some premium service on the corridor.

I agree.

 

[Septa9739]

I would never deny the merits of premium service, but if a typical consist were 2 45 seat first class cars 3 60-seat business cars with their own lounge, and then 10 coaches with their own cafe, and that ran every 20 minutes on an NER schedule that wasn’t sandbagged, AMTRAK would be able to do a lot more with flexibility for premium fare passengers, maybe even old TWA-style walk up service. Coaches could become unreserved again. Amtrak on Amtrak overtakes (which cause havoc for poor defenseless commuter passengers) could be eliminated (or greatly reduced). All I’m trying to do is observe significant trade offs are made to maintain the Acela and those might not be the best for the railroad as a whole. In any case though, I think it is wholly unfair to blame Alstom. Amtrak pushed the FRA for Tier III crashworthiness, which in theory is fine, but they went and ordered off the shelf equipment from someplace with totally different infrastructure, as far as I know without ever having brought a foreign set over for testing on the NEC. If things are really that way, the analogy is needing a Phillips screwdriver, asking the guy at the hardware store for a flathead, and then blaming him when you can screw the screw in. It seems clear something was off in Amtrak’s specs and nobody seems to know what to do. If Alstom simply weren’t building to spec, I’m sure we would have heard just like we heard about lead plumbing, dangerous magnets, flunked 800,000 pound tests et al. in previous orders.

 

[jis]

I would never deny the merits of premium service, but if a typical consist were 2 45 seat first class cars 3 60-seat business cars with their own lounge, and then 10 coaches with their own cafe, and that ran every 20 minutes on an NER schedule that wasn’t sandbagged, AMTRAK would be able to do a lot more with flexibility for premium fare passengers, maybe even old TWA-style walk up service. Coaches could become unreserved again. Amtrak on Amtrak overtakes (which cause havoc for poor defenseless commuter passengers) could be eliminated (or greatly reduced). All I’m trying to do is observe significant trade offs are made to maintain the Acela and those might not be the best for the railroad as a whole. In any case though, I think it is wholly unfair to blame Alstom. Amtrak pushed the FRA for Tier III crashworthiness, which in theory is fine, but they went and ordered off the shelf equipment from someplace with totally different infrastructure, as far as I know without ever having brought a foreign set over for testing on the NEC. If things are really that way, the analogy is needing a Phillips screwdriver, asking the guy at the hardware store for a flathead, and then blaming him when you can screw the screw in. It seems clear something was off in Amtrak’s specs and nobody seems to know what to do. If Alstom simply weren’t building to spec, I’m sure we would have heard just like we heard about lead plumbing, dangerous magnets, flunked 800,000 pound tests et al. in previous orders.

This shows a misunderstanding about who speced what. Amtrak did not do a full technical spec. Thankfully it has gotten out of the business of trying to design railcar platforms for which it has no expertise. All that they did was stated requirements and reviewed what Alstom proposed to meet those requirements, and it was upto Alstom to deliver the spec that they put together, meeting the operational requirements specified by Amtrak, and they are having difficulty doing so. That is why it is primarily Alstom's problem, not Amtrak's this time around.

Having said that, procurement management is a difficult art, and it is hard to get it right in the best of circumstances anyway, specially in a revolving door environment where upper management seems not to be interested in fostering continuity of experience in the organization. Amtrak can be faulted big time for that.

Tier III was pushed primarily by large commuter agencies in addition to Amtrak, and by almost every passenger rail advocate. Tier III is what is making Brightline, Caltrain EMUs, and indeed the whole set of Siemens orders possible. Tier III introduced standardized collision energy management in US passenger railcars, replacing a standard (Tier I and Tier II) which did not allow any deformation of anything in collisions.

 

[GDRRiley]

If the problem arises due to Jacobs trucks for example then this claim is unsustainable since they could not possibly have had experience with Jacobs trucks on NEC trackage from Acela Is. The Acela 21s are a vastly different beast from the Acela Is, in almost every aspect of the train..

I agree the trains are widely different but the track is not

Could you provide credible evidence that this was the case? Or is this just your opinion? What specific "political moves" do you allude to here?

Best thing I can point to was the planned joint order with CASHR and Chucks push for the liberty over talgo offering. Its been so many years and discussion about liberties I can't find my source
2015 Chuck Schumer went to Alstoms plant and said they were going to win in 2015 a year before it was announced
Alstom set to win $2.5 billion U.S. train deal - senator

 

[GDRRiley]

Tier III was pushed primarily by large commuter agencies in addition to Amtrak, and by almost every passenger rail advocate. Tier III is what is making Brightline, Caltrain EMUs, and indeed the whole set of Siemens orders possible. Tier III introduced standardized collision energy management in US passenger railcars, replacing a standard (Tier I and Tier II) which did not allow any deformation of anything in collisions.

TIII is only a requirement for trains above 125mph its EU high speed train crash standards, TI alternative is what Caltrain, Arrow, Sliver line is using for KISS/FLIRTs and allows units complying with normal EU crash standards to mix with TI-III at upto 125mph. Both require some modifications when it comes to meeting interior and window standards.

 

[nferr]

It is not amtrak but Alstom who seemed to have though that, they worked on the first aclea and seems to have forgotten everything. Amtrak if it wasn't for a series of political moves would have gone with a new Pendilino based platform.
You can argue amtrak should have gone for the entire fleet being EMUs or Bi mode trains but no way amtrak wasn't going to keep some premium service on the corridor.

They should have just ordered some super fancy versions of the current order for the regional trains, go all out for a premium trim for the Acela type service. Upscale interiors and cafe cars etc. These Acela cars are a joke, billions of dollars to arrive 15 minutes quicker.

 

[MARC Rider]

They should have just ordered some super fancy versions of the current order for the regional trains, go all out for a premium trim for the Acela type service. Upscale interiors and cafe cars etc. These Acela cars are a joke, billions of dollars to arrive 15 minutes quicker.

Actually, the Acela for New York to Baltimore and Washinton is about 30 minutes faster than the Regionals. And Boston to Washington or Baltimore is about an hour faster on the Acelas than the Regionals. If they could do something to speed up the New Haven to New Rochelle segment, that would only make things better.

 

[nferr]

Actually, the Acela for New York to Baltimore and Washinton is about 30 minutes faster than the Regionals. And Boston to Washington or Baltimore is about an hour faster on the Acelas than the Regionals. If they could do something to speed up the New Haven to New Rochelle segment, that would only make things better.

Less stops and scheduling.

 

[west point]

Well Portal north, B&P new bores, Susquehanna bridge. & more higher speed CAT may make that schedule have more of a difference.

 

[Acela150]

I’ve been hearing some rumblings that the prototype set that is in Philly will be going to Hornell as early as Monday the 28th for interior completion.

 

[jis]

I’ve been hearing some rumblings that the prototype set that is in Philly will be going to Hornell as early as Monday the 28th for interior completion.

Any scuttlebutt on whatever it is that they were trying to fix? Have they found a fix, or is it still all up in the air?Are they trying to figure out public statements of why these trains will not operate too fast? Or is it about to get certified?

The fact that they are sending the prototype for fixup suggests that they are getting close to a conclusion, whatever it is....

 

[blueman271]

When was the last time Amtrak procured cars and put them into service based on the original timeline? Viewliner 1? Superliner 2? Regardless of whose fault this particular problem is Amtrak has an abysmal record/luck with acquiring new cars.

 

[Acela150]

Any scuttlebutt on whatever it is that they were trying to fix? Have they found a fix, or is it still all up in the air?Are they trying to figure out public statements of why these trains will not operate too fast? Or is it about to get certified?

The fact that they are sending the prototype for fixup suggests that they are getting close to a conclusion, whatever it is....

As far as the scuttlebutt goes I haven’t heard anything that hasn’t been made public. I’m not around to see the Alstom guys a lot to ask them what’s going on.

But, I do agree with you about a conclusion being close. I’ll also add that I personally believe that when the trainsets are ready for service everything will happen rather quickly. Between the crew training, certifications, final testing, etc. Especially since the current fleet is hurting. A couple of months ago a door just fell off one of the trainsets when it was being closed. A few good things came out of that thought. One of them being that no one was near the door, which means no one got hurt. Another trainset was across from it so they could swap equipment fairly quickly.

4 trainsets are in Bear being used for parts to supply the rest of the fleet. It’s sad to see how it has been.

However the one thing that really made a difference with getting the new trainsets delivered was the pandemic. I believe that Hornell had to shut down for a week or two until the waiver was issued to resume production. And two weeks in a major project such as this has a massive impact. However the pandemic has truly affected the world as we know it.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

The news report was that computer modelling did not match the real world instrument results when running on the NEC. Good software is hard, and there is always one further mode you can go out on a Fourier Transform to get the vibrations. (And parameters to add.) It would be easy to misunderstand things at a management level, from either Alstom or Amtrak. Anyway, if it's a delay that's better than if it's a lemon.

NOAA used to have two big models, of the SF Bay and the Chesapeake Bay, that you could visit. Sausalito, and I forget the eastern location. They were seemingly close to an acre in size, filled with water and had pumps and little copper baffles to model current. I concluded they still had a use - to check the new computer models! A similar demise of physical models happened when the very large wind tunnel at Langley in Hampton, VA, was demolished. It was too expensive to paint.

 

[TC_NYC]

When was the last time Amtrak procured cars and put them into service based on the original timeline? Viewliner 1? Superliner 2? Regardless of whose fault this particular problem is Amtrak has an abysmal record/luck with acquiring new cars.

Was the original Acela procurement on time?