Acela II RFP information announcement

[Acela150]

Would I be shocked if Siemens gets the deal if the new electrics perform well, no. But Amtrak has to keep the door open. Look over everything from everyone and go with the best deal.

 

[Fan Railer]

Would I be shocked if Siemens gets the deal if the new electrics perform well, no. But Amtrak has to keep the door open. Look over everything from everyone and go with the best deal.

You still have to say that we can pretty much predict who the front runners are going to be.

 

[Nathanael]

Would I be shocked if Siemens gets the deal if the new electrics perform well, no. But Amtrak has to keep the door open. Look over everything from everyone and go with the best deal.

You still have to say that we can pretty much predict who the front runners are going to be.

There's really not that many players in the high-speed trainset market. I've examined them from the investment point of view. There's Bombardier, Siemens, Alstom, CAF, and I think two companies in Japan. (I didn't pay much attention to the Japanese companies in that round of research because they're hard to make 'pure play' investments in, being tied up in keiretsu and as such not listed on the stock markets). And there are the Chinese companies, but nobody in the US will use the Chinese companies. There are also a few long-shots like Talgo but they seem unlikely.

Predicting the front-runners isn't hard when the total number of likely competitors is less than 6. CAF and Alstom probably won't bid (they aren't set up to deal easily with Buy America rules for high-speed train production), so that brings it down to Siemens, Bombardier, and the two Japanese companies which I can't remember the names of.

 

[Anderson]

Would I be shocked if Siemens gets the deal if the new electrics perform well, no. But Amtrak has to keep the door open. Look over everything from everyone and go with the best deal.

You still have to say that we can pretty much predict who the front runners are going to be.

Yes, but a no-bid contract would be open to all sorts of misbehavior on pricing and whatnot, to say nothing of allegations thereof that may or may not be well-founded.

 

[Crescent ATN & TCL]

What are the companies in the US that are capable of producing 220mph trainsets?

I know there is Siemens, Alstom and Talgo. We all know Talgo is out because of platform height. So that leaves Siemens and Alstom. We know Siemens Velaro would be the same platform height as the rest of the NEC trains. When they brought the ICE-1 over in the 90s it operated just fine on the corridor and the Velaro operates with the ICE-1 in Germany now. I'm not sure of the height of the AGV, so I don't know if it is a contender.

Now if they want tilt that will mean an ICE-T set, but I don't think those can run at 220mph, Most tilting trains have top speeds in the 125mph-185mph range, except Talgo 350, which is out because of platform height.

We know Siemens has room to build a HighSpeed plant at their current location, but does Alstom have the space to build AGV's in Hornell or would they have to build a new plant for that?

As for the Japanese companies, I do not want a version of the Shikansen due to the tiny airplane windows in all of their trains. Which if I'm thinking correctly there is a minimum window size in the FRA requirements for evacuation through windows. Those tiny airplane windows are definitely going to be too small to meet that requirement.

 

[afigg]

What are the companies in the US that are capable of producing 220mph trainsets?

Well, CAF is building Viewliners at their Elmira facility. Depending on how the vendor can comply with the Buy America requirement, the US plant for HSR trainsets may be more of a final assembly plant with the routine parts brought from US suppliers to up the US quotient.

Since CHSRA is a public agency, their website may be a better source of information on the RFP and who the qualified bidders are than what Amtrak will disclose.

BTW, I looked for info on HSR trainsets & builders and found this summary List of High-Speed Trains on wikipedia. Even a brief look at the Siemens Velaro shows why that would be a contender for the NEC application.

 

[Andrew]

The current Acela Express trains have 6 passenger cars. How many cars will the new Trainsets have?

 

[afigg]

The current Acela Express trains have 6 passenger cars. How many cars will the new Trainsets have?

Presumably TBD (To Be Determined). That will depend on which vendor and design wins the contract. Amtrak is looking to have so many seats, probably 450, give or take, with X first class seats, Y business/coach class seats, and space for cafe service. But the CA HSR will have its own specifications for capacity and configuration. The proposed trainsets will have to meet the seating and many other requirements in the RFP. One vendor may be able to meet that with a 8 car design, another with 9 or 10 cars. We shall see.

 

[Nathanael]

BTW, I looked for info on HSR trainsets & builders and found this summary List of High-Speed Trains on wikipedia. Even a brief look at the Siemens Velaro shows why that would be a contender for the NEC application.

Of the companies on that list, the big one which I forgot was Fiat Ferrovia.
There are also four Japanese companies, not two. They seem to like to make joint bids, however.

BREL is now part of Bombardier, as are a lot of the other companies listed, so I didn't actually miss anything else.

 

[Nathanael]

The current Acela Express trains have 6 passenger cars. How many cars will the new Trainsets have?

Presumably TBD (To Be Determined). That will depend on which vendor and design wins the contract. Amtrak is looking to have so many seats, probably 450, give or take, with X first class seats, Y business/coach class seats, and space for cafe service. But the CA HSR will have its own specifications for capacity and configuration. The proposed trainsets will have to meet the seating and many other requirements in the RFP. One vendor may be able to meet that with a 8 car design, another with 9 or 10 cars. We shall see.

There's a lot to be said for going straight to the longest train which can platform at all the Acela stops, given trends in demand. Given standard-length cars, I think that would mean 12 cars, though someone else may know platform lengths better than I.

 

[Fan Railer]

The current Acela Express trains have 6 passenger cars. How many cars will the new Trainsets have?

Presumably TBD (To Be Determined). That will depend on which vendor and design wins the contract. Amtrak is looking to have so many seats, probably 450, give or take, with X first class seats, Y business/coach class seats, and space for cafe service. But the CA HSR will have its own specifications for capacity and configuration. The proposed trainsets will have to meet the seating and many other requirements in the RFP. One vendor may be able to meet that with a 8 car design, another with 9 or 10 cars. We shall see.

There's a lot to be said for going straight to the longest train which can platform at all the Acela stops, given trends in demand. Given standard-length cars, I think that would mean 12 cars, though someone else may know platform lengths better than I.

I would feel that an easily expandable train set would win out in this situation here. Growth is key, and while we know that CAHSR is gunning for an 8 car (200 meter) EMU (so they can run double consists to fill the length of their ~400 meter platforms), we may see Amtrak start with an 8 car EMU with a different seating arrangement, and plan a provision for inserting growth cars at a later date should capacity requirements demand it. As for Amtrak platform lengths, you're probably not going to see an Acela II train set longer than say 10 or 12 cars (after growth). The platforms at Boston, Philadelphia, and Washington accommodate 13-14 cars max at the moment, IIRC, and most intermediate stops that the Acela services are average 10-12 standard car lengths, with NYP and Newark Penn being the outliers, platforming 17 cars and a potential of 18 cars respectively (should the platforms at Newark be renovated and reopened to their full length).

Considering that Amtrak is planning to build a new HSR corridor through CT, we may actually (if growth demands) see a mixture of 8 car EMUs for service on the traditional NEC (through New London and Kingston), and extended (10 or 12 car) EMUs for service through the new corridor. Afterall, Amtrak is planning to have a total of 46 of these Acela II trains by the time the entire system is running, so we'll just have to wait and see what the breakdown is at the end of all of this.

 

[battalion51]

It all depends on how you define a car length. I believe the Talgo sets have car lengths that are about 40' long (it's somewhere in that ballpark), whereas the majority of Amtrak's fleet is 85' long. Amtrak and CAHSR are going to be looking for things like seat counts, restroom to passenger ratios, loading/unloading times, ability to add/remove cars, overall length, road power requirements, etc. How the bidder decides to put their product forward to meet those specs is up to them.

 

[afigg]

I would feel that an easily expandable train set would win out in this situation here. Growth is key, and while we know that CAHSR is gunning for an 8 car (200 meter) EMU (so they can run double consists to fill the length of their ~400 meter platforms), we may see Amtrak start with an 8 car EMU with a different seating arrangement, and plan a provision for inserting growth cars at a later date should capacity requirements demand it. As for Amtrak platform lengths, you're probably not going to see an Acela II train set longer than say 10 or 12 cars (after growth). The platforms at Boston, Philadelphia, and Washington accommodate 13-14 cars max at the moment, IIRC, and most intermediate stops that the Acela services are average 10-12 standard car lengths, with NYP and Newark Penn being the outliers, platforming 17 cars and a potential of 18 cars respectively (should the platforms at Newark be renovated and reopened to their full length).

Looking it up, the high level platforms at WAS are 9 cars long. The New Carrollton platform is 10 cars long. The 2 platforms at BAL used by Amtrak are 10 and 12 cars long. The longest platform at New Haven is 9 cars long. (Source: RE Green's maps) IIRC, there was a post on here in recent months listing platform lengths for all/most of the Amtrak NEC stations in response to a similar thread drift on why not run really long trains.
Until the NEC stations have been "modernized" and standardized to a greater extent, there is little benefit to Amtrak to deploy Acelas longer than 9 cars (cars in this case = 85' long which may not be the case for a new HSR trainset). At the current rate of upgrading the NEC, only the young ones on this forum will be around to see an NEC where almost all the Amtrak stations have platforms at least 12 cars long or ~1000'+ to be more specific.

Your mention of the CA HSR plans for 400 meter platforms (at least for the main trunk stations) brings up the question of compatibility of the requirements for the legacy constrained NEC versus the all new CA HSR. Amtrak and the CHSRA* are attempting to have a combined purchase to lower costs, but there is no guarantee that they will be able to do so. There are many ways the plans for a combined order can fall apart. Inadequate funding for Amtrak by Congress in FY14 and FY15 could delay placing an order or just stall the entire process for one.

* CHSRA = California High Speed Rail Authority to keep the authority separate from discussions of the CA HSR system.

 

[afigg]

Amtrak has posted RFP Information to potential offerers for High Speed Trainsets to their Procurement Portal site Non-construction list. Look for RFP Information to Potential Offerors for the procurement of High Speed Rail Trainsets. The listing is from Nov 21 to Dec 2, after which I expect the listing will be taken down and the link will no longer work. The juicy part of the RFP information is a link to a 169 page Schedule 1A performance specification which can be downloaded and opened with a little work. I have just started to skim the performance spec document.

The gist of the text on the procurement portal page:

It is contemplated that Amtrak will release the Request For Proposal (RFP) for up to twenty-eight (28) new high speed Trainsets in concert with the California High-Speed Rail Authority within one months time. For now, please refer to attached Draft Specification to be used as a reference point for the Corridor Tour and Pre-Proposal Meeting.

Prospective Offerors should plan to attend the Pre-Proposal Meeting, Northeast Corridor tour, and Buy America Act informational session conducted by the Federal Railroad Administration starting on December 3, 2013 through December 6, 2013. Please note the date change from previous email for the tour and refer to information attached.

For those wondering about seating capacity, from the performance spec:

For Amtrak, the baseline interior layout shall provide a nominal 425 passenger seats.

For the Authority, the baseline interior layout shall provide a minimum 450 passenger seats.

There is a lot of interesting stuff in the performance spec. To be capable of 2 hours and 21 minutes WAS-NYP (obviously only after a lot of upgrades to the NEC). A USB port at each passenger seat?

 

[afigg]

Some excerpts from the NEXT GENERATION AMTRAK/AUTHORITY TRAINSETS – PERFORMANCE SPECIFICATION (Revision 7b):

1. operating specs

Amtrak journey time requirements shall be met operating with a full-seated passenger load and are as follows:

· Washington, DC - New York Penn Station: Not to exceed 2 hours, 21 minutes with one-minute station stops at Baltimore, MD; Wilmington, DE; Philadelphia 30th Street Station, PA and Newark, NJ.

· New Haven, CT – Boston South Station, MA: Not to exceed 1 hour, 51 minutes) with one-minute station stops at Boston Back Bay Station, MA; Route 128, MA; Providence, RI and New London, CT.

Journey times will be determined by Amtrak through use of its in-house Train Performance Calculator (TPC). Where a total journey time is necessary for duty cycle- and RAMS-related determinations, a Washington, DC to Boston South Station, MA total journey time of 6 hours 8 minutes shall be used.

Amtrak’s simulations will be based on operations of up to a maximum cant deficiency of 5 inches (127 mm) for a non-tilt trainset and up to 9 inches (229 mm) for a tilting trainset. High cant deficiency operation shall provide compensation for quasi static lateral accelerations exceeding 0.06g and the amount of compensation shall be determined jointly during the performance simulations stated above.

2. Train length and configuration

For Amtrak, the distance between the first and last axles of the Trainset shall be a maximum of 205 m (672.6 feet).

For the Authority, the maximum Trainset length shall be such that all of the side entry doors of the Trainset in double traction can berth at a platform having a length of 407 m (1,335 feet).

The Trainset design shall feature single-deck passenger accommodations.

3. Noise

The Trainset will operate at high speeds, in tunnels and occasionally in close proximity to dwellings. Therefore, the control of interior and exterior noise at speeds up to 354 km/h (220 mph) for the Authority and 257.5 km/h (160 mph) for Amtrak shall be critical.

4. General requirements

The Trainset shall have a service life of not less than 30 years. The Trainset shall accommodate an estimated annual mileage of 650,000 km (404,000 miles) per Trainset while operating on the respective Owner’s network.

5. Americans are getting fatter. Deal with it.

Per EN 15663, the typical weight of a passenger, with luggage is identified as 80 kg (176 lbs.). The typical weight of a crew member, with luggage and Equipment, is identified as 80 kg (176 lbs.). A review of U.S. Center for Disease Control weight statistics for adult females and males has been conducted. Based on these statistics, by 2043, the average weight for a U.S. male is predicted to be 97.5 kg (215 lbs.), and the average weight for a female is predicted to be 84.2 kg (186 lbs.).

6. Seating

Business Class seating shall be provided in 2+2 configuration, in both table and unidirectional seating layouts, and shall include accommodations for ADA seating.

Seating shall be provided with spacing equivalent to 991 mm (39 inches) of Pitch.

7. Pantograph

Two pantographs shall be supplied per Trainset; however, current collection during Normal operation shall be performed by only 1 pantograph. The design of the pantographs shall account for the reduction of aerodynamic noise emissions and shall provide excellent current collecting performance at all speeds on all routes.

The pantograph shall be of a proven design capable of current collection at all speeds up to 390 km/h (242 mph).
The pantograph shall have an operating range for wire heights from 4.5 m (14.83 feet) to 7.5 m (24.5 feet).

8. Behave. They will be watching. And recording it for court.

Internally mounted color video cameras shall be provided in each Vehicle to allow full monitoring of all passengers inside the Vehicle. This System shall be specifically designed to record anti-social behavior of passengers, as well as allow real time visual communication with all Vehicles in the consist by the Operator.

 

[Paulus]

Not terribly thrilled at the idea that business class will be the base class for CAHSR like it is for Acela. Could be good advertising though I suppose. 15% minimum for first class. I think the HHP-8 scarred Amtrak somewhat: "Trainset availability shall, at a minimum, be 99.9999%”

Ooh, dedicated bicycle storage for CAHSRA, minimum of 8 bikes per trainset.

 

[Paulus]

8.16.29 Onboard Media Content Delivery

The passenger information System shall integrate with the existing onboard Wi-Fi network for its Internet communication to send and receive real-time and stored messages and content to and from the Owner’s designated control center. Content may include, but is not limited to, the following:

a) Downloaded movies.

b) Streamed TV channels stored on local DVR for delayed local transmission onboard.

c) Train schedule information (train numbers and associated schedule including station

stops and arrival times).

d) Menus.

e) Advertising.

There shall be the ability to deliver Owner-controlled content that is stored locally on the train to display units in all cars over the passenger information System or to passengers’ personal Devices over the passenger Wi-Fi network.

There shall be the ability to update the stored media content with over-the-air updates from centralized command and control points without requiring physical touching of onboard computer servers.

It shall be possible to manage content and push updates remotely to:

a) Entire fleet.

b) Sub-groups of fleet.

c) An individual train.

Food service signage shall have the ability to display rich media (e.g., images and animations) from an onboard media server for the purpose of displaying and making real time changes to the menu.

I seriously hope they do an integration of the real time updated menu such that all classes, both Amtrak and HSR, can do at seat meal purchases. Also screens for each seat would be nice.

The Contractor shall supply three G scale (1:22.5) models of the as-built Trainsets to both Amtrak and the Authority.

Now that I just find personally amusing.

 

[Peter KG6LSE]

I want those scale sets for my Xmas tree!

 

[Nathanael]

The Contractor shall supply three G scale (1:22.5) models of the as-built Trainsets to both Amtrak and the Authority.

For press conferences, perhaps? Can't imagine why else...

 

[afigg]

The Contractor shall supply three G scale (1:22.5) models of the as-built Trainsets to both Amtrak and the Authority.

For press conferences, perhaps? Can't imagine why else...

For press conferences, dog & pony shows, press interviews, show and tell at Congressional hearings, display models for the boardroom or public display at National Train days. Perhaps for orientation training? A 1:22.5 scale for a trainset of longer than 672.6' (first to last axle length) is pretty big.

The complete text in the specification is :

"The Contractor shall supply three G scale (1:22.5) models of the as-built Trainsets to both Amtrak and the Authority. The model construction shall be configured so that the interior decor and layout may be viewed."

So these models can be used to show the interior configuration.

 

[MattW]

Yea, it doesn't say they have to be running so they aren't just for putting around the Amtrak Christmas tree or something.

 

[afigg]

Lengthy Fresno Bee news article on the plans for the combined HSR order and Siemens prospects with comments from the chief program manager for CHSRA and the Siemens director of HSR development: Government rules require California's high-speed trains to be built in U.S.

Some excerpts:

Together, the two agencies are preparing to ask for bids in coming weeks from manufacturers to build between 50 and 60 train sets capable of carrying passengers at speeds up to 220 mph.

From a 34-acre plant in southeast Sacramento, Siemens Industry is one of a handful of multinational companies with an eye on the prize a contract for "rolling stock" potentially worth $2 billion or more.

Siemens has a well-established supply chain of U.S.-made parts for the light-rail trains and heavier passenger locomotives it builds in Sacramento, Kick said. Steel comes from plants in California and the western U.S. A Siemens plant in Georgia provides propulsion equipment, and electric motors come from another Siemens factory in Ohio. Those Siemens facilities would be adapted to add high-speed rail components to their production.

But Buy America provisions for some parts could become a significant factor in driving prices up for high-speed trains built in the U.S.

"If there are certain items on that (Buy America) list that are not available in the U.S., and suppliers aren't convinced to set up shop in the U.S., that's going to be a really, really big headache," Kick said. "Say there's some widget and we have a global supplier for that, but that supplier is unwilling or unable to build this component here to comply with Buy America, then what do you do? It becomes very costly."

The California High-Speed Rail Authority's 2012 business plan anticipated spending about $871 million for train sets to launch service on its initial operating segment, a 300-mile line from Merced into the San Fernando Valley. If that is spread across 20 train sets California's anticipated initial order it works out to a price of about $43.5 million per train. Each 656-foot train would have between 450 and 500 seats.

If the winning bid comes in at $50 million a trainset, Amtrak should be able to get a RRIF loan to pay for the lion's share of the cost for the entire order even if Congress does not provide direct funding.

 

[Andrew]

Lengthy Fresno Bee news article on the plans for the combined HSR order and Siemens prospects with comments from the chief program manager for CHSRA and the Siemens director of HSR development: Government rules require California's high-speed trains to be built in U.S.

Some excerpts:

Together, the two agencies are preparing to ask for bids in coming weeks from manufacturers to build between 50 and 60 train sets capable of carrying passengers at speeds up to 220 mph.

From a 34-acre plant in southeast Sacramento, Siemens Industry is one of a handful of multinational companies with an eye on the prize a contract for "rolling stock" potentially worth $2 billion or more.

Siemens has a well-established supply chain of U.S.-made parts for the light-rail trains and heavier passenger locomotives it builds in Sacramento, Kick said. Steel comes from plants in California and the western U.S. A Siemens plant in Georgia provides propulsion equipment, and electric motors come from another Siemens factory in Ohio. Those Siemens facilities would be adapted to add high-speed rail components to their production.

But Buy America provisions for some parts could become a significant factor in driving prices up for high-speed trains built in the U.S.

"If there are certain items on that (Buy America) list that are not available in the U.S., and suppliers aren't convinced to set up shop in the U.S., that's going to be a really, really big headache," Kick said. "Say there's some widget and we have a global supplier for that, but that supplier is unwilling or unable to build this component here to comply with Buy America, then what do you do? It becomes very costly."

The California High-Speed Rail Authority's 2012 business plan anticipated spending about $871 million for train sets to launch service on its initial operating segment, a 300-mile line from Merced into the San Fernando Valley. If that is spread across 20 train sets California's anticipated initial order it works out to a price of about $43.5 million per train. Each 656-foot train would have between 450 and 500 seats.

If the winning bid comes in at $50 million a trainset, Amtrak should be able to get a RRIF loan to pay for the lion's share of the cost for the entire order even if Congress does not provide direct funding.

So that comes to what, $500 million?

 

[afigg]

The California High-Speed Rail Authority's 2012 business plan anticipated spending about $871 million for train sets to launch service on its initial operating segment, a 300-mile line from Merced into the San Fernando Valley. If that is spread across 20 train sets California's anticipated initial order it works out to a price of about $43.5 million per train. Each 656-foot train would have between 450 and 500 seats.

If the winning bid comes in at $50 million a trainset, Amtrak should be able to get a RRIF loan to pay for the lion's share of the cost for the entire order even if Congress does not provide direct funding.

So that comes to what, $500 million?

According to the HSR order plans stated earlier this year, Amtrak is seeking to order 12 trainsets in the first round. Then Amtrak would order 20 trainsets to replace the Acela Is in the early 2020s. If the winning bid came to $50 million a trainset plus spares and maintenance support upgrades, Amtrak might be looking at a $700 or $800 million cost for the first order batch.

 

[Andrew]

Is RRIF the only way to fund that?