Adirondack discussion

[jiml]

Several of GO Transit's O&O track segments have concrete ties - installed under contract by CN, so they do know how to do it.

 

[Railvt]

The link below is to the latest from Trains superb reporter Bob Johnston on the ADIRONDACK track condition debacle.

While it is certainly good to see the trains back starting Monday, the article makes it clear much track maintenance remains to be done and the work actually accomplished is insufficient to eliminate definitively another round of slow orders when temps exceed 85F in the future. Nor will there be any near-term improvement in the insanely slow (northbound in particular) running times on the CN from Rouses Point to Montreal.

It is 49 miles from Rouses Point to Montreal. Before the COVID suspension (basically for three years) the train took three hours/6 minutes over this district (which included an assumed a dwell-time of an hour for Canadian Border Control formalities enroute at Cantic P.Q. Now that is stretched out to three hours/43 minutes! That's 223 minutes for 49 miles! This is an average speed of under 15mph. A bike-rider is good shape could compete with this!

Southbound is faster, as US Border formalities are conducted during the Rouses Point stop--BUT--the train still takes an hour and 55 minutes for the 49 miles, compared to one hour/30 minutes pre COVID. And the dwell time at Rouses Point for US Customs/Immigration is still a full hour, making the inclusive Montreal to Rouses Point schedule southbound two hours/55 minutes.

Comparing northbound times to those southbound, with the Rouses Point dwell time included still shows 48 minutes of "padding" between the border and Montreal. These absurdly slow run times are unchanged despite all the track work?!

Worse, the nature/scope/ambitions/accomplishments of the summer-long suspension remain essentially secret. Neither Amtrak, CN or NYDOT have provided any real outline of what was done--nor what is still needed. They may know privately, but this needs to be public. Right now!

Are they afraid it will be discovered that Amtrak spent (fully and properly authorized and appropriated) US money across the border? Is CN after all this time still not willing to commit to "normal" 50mph running on tangent track and 30MPH elsewhere?

This situation remains intentionally obfuscated if these simple questions can't be answered. And ultimately that will not be good for CN, Amtrak or NYDOT. After five years without the ADIRONDACK running through the entire peak summer season (2020, 21, 22, 23, & 24) these questions MUST be answered.

Here is the link:

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...es-monday-with-canadian-trackwork-incomplete/

 

[George Harris]

Maybe o.t., but maybe not. It is a well known fact that concrete ties last much longer, but are more expensive, than wooden ones. I haven't seen wooden ones in Europe in eons yet we still do the tie replacement "on the cheap". I'd wager CN is doing it on the cheap.

There is a lot more to it that just "on the cheap". I could talk a while on this since dealing with track issues in transit and high speed rail had been a goodly chunk of my professional life, but I am not exactly sure where to start. A couple of comments to start:

Use of concrete ties began in Europe after WW2 due to the lack of good wood for ties. In their situation, concrete was actually cheaper. There were many issues with a lot of the early concrete tie designs, some complete surprises. These issues and plentiful supply of good wood and the abject failure of many of these earlier concrete tie designs under American axle loads let to continued use of wood in North America. The advertised longevity of concrete ties did not really happen with many/most of these early designs. A good well treated wood tie will last 30 plus years in straight track with reasonably good ballast. That the current concrete tie designs will last the 50 plus years advertised remains to be seen.

The early use of concrete ties by the Florida East Coast was somewhat of a special case. First, there is no locally grown wood in Florida that is practical for crossties, so there would be additional freight costs to get the wood there. In general, railroad companies count the cost of internal freight haulage of company materials as zero, and most have lines into areas where good timber for cross ties grows. Second, since much of the ground in Florida is sandy and drains well, they did not have the mud pumping through the ballast that is common with other soil types. Concrete ties due to their stiffness significantly increase mud pumping issues. Third, the railroad is nearly flat and straight so that wheel to rail to tie forces are not as much an issue as they are for many other railroads.

Concrete tie track is much less tolerant of ballast quality and subgrade deficiencies that wood tie track. Simply put, wood tie provide a certain amount of cushioning while the cushioning of concrete ties is effectively zero. Concrete in concrete ties has a compressive strength of around 7,000 psi. For comparison, normal structural concrete is usually in the range of 4,000 psi, other than members like bridge beams, which are around 5,000 psi (that number subject to correction.) This is harder than most ballast stone. Thus, the ties would pulverize the ballast. This was/is not that much of a problem under the lighter European axle loads. Renewing the ballast with stronger rock was/is a significant expense. At about the time of the TGV opening, this was a subject of discussion and a major issue with some of the American systems. About a year or so into the TGV operation, they began to experience the same issues. Despite the much lighter axle loads since impact is a V^2 issue they were having the same ballast pulverization problems as North American freight lines. This issue got very little publicity but there was major ballast work after this became a problem for them. This issue is why BNSF did and maybe still does use wood ties across ballasted deck bridges in tracks that are otherwise concrete ties. Otherwise, the ballast on the bridge is simply rock between a hammer and an anvil.

More later.

 

[Amtrak25]

What do you guys think of recycled plastic ties ? I've seen them on 80MPH portions of the NJT Raritan Line.

 

[George Harris]

What do you guys think of recycled plastic ties ? I've seen them on 80MPH portions of the NJT Raritan Line.

A solution looking for a problem. This idea has been around for a long time, 20 years plus. So far it has been put a few in to get the politicians placated enough after they have been visited by the promoters with their "hey, we have a wonderful idea" spiels. Simple thought: If a supplier has a truly good idea they go to the engineering staff. If they have something questionable that may sound good they go to the management or politicians.

 

[Railvt]

The ADIRONDAK resumed service to Montreal yesterday. For whatever it's worth the train was an hour early across the St. Lawrence River into Montreal! This included the Canadian Customs and Immigration stop at Cantic, P.Q.

Hopefully Amtrak and the CN will take at least 20-30 minutes out of the schedule Rouses Point to Montreal if this is sustained for the next few weeks. Such times should not be a surprise. Before the suspension in service for the summer track work, early arrivals into Montreal were very frequent, unless the train arrived substantially late into Rouses Point from Albany.

Pre-COVID the northbound ADIRONDACK took 2 hours and six minutes--including border checks, to make the 49 miles from Rouses Point to Montreal. Now the published timetable allows three hours and 43 minutes--all slow-order caused--as Canadian immigration was/is still at Cantic in both scenarios. Southbound (with US border work done after arrival into Rouses Point), the pre-COVID ADIRONDACK took one hour and 35 minutes over the district, while today's times have swelled one hour and 55 minutes. That 20 minutes needs to be returned to the benefit of the train. Millions have been spent to gain nothing??!

Truthfully the CN Rouses Point Subdivision should now be in much better shape after nearly three months of repairs than it was before COVID. A minimum target should be to restore the schedule to the running times in effect then.

 

[Willbridge]

There is a lot more to it that just "on the cheap". I could talk a while on this since dealing with track issues in transit and high speed rail had been a goodly chunk of my professional life, but I am not exactly sure where to start. A couple of comments to start:

Use of concrete ties began in Europe after WW2 due to the lack of good wood for ties. In their situation, concrete was actually cheaper. There were many issues with a lot of the early concrete tie designs, some complete surprises. These issues and plentiful supply of good wood and the abject failure of many of these earlier concrete tie designs under American axle loads let to continued use of wood in North America. The advertised longevity of concrete ties did not really happen with many/most of these early designs. A good well treated wood tie will last 30 plus years in straight track with reasonably good ballast. That the current concrete tie designs will last the 50 plus years advertised remains to be seen.

The early use of concrete ties by the Florida East Coast was somewhat of a special case. First, there is no locally grown wood in Florida that is practical for crossties, so there would be additional freight costs to get the wood there. In general, railroad companies count the cost of internal freight haulage of company materials as zero, and most have lines into areas where good timber for cross ties grows. Second, since much of the ground in Florida is sandy and drains well, they did not have the mud pumping through the ballast that is common with other soil types. Concrete ties due to their stiffness significantly increase mud pumping issues. Third, the railroad is nearly flat and straight so that wheel to rail to tie forces are not as much an issue as they are for many other railroads.

Concrete tie track is much less tolerant of ballast quality and subgrade deficiencies that wood tie track. Simply put, wood tie provide a certain amount of cushioning while the cushioning of concrete ties is effectively zero. Concrete in concrete ties has a compressive strength of around 7,000 psi. For comparison, normal structural concrete is usually in the range of 4,000 psi, other than members like bridge beams, which are around 5,000 psi (that number subject to correction.) This is harder than most ballast stone. Thus, the ties would pulverize the ballast. This was/is not that much of a problem under the lighter European axle loads. Renewing the ballast with stronger rock was/is a significant expense. At about the time of the TGV opening, this was a subject of discussion and a major issue with some of the American systems. About a year or so into the TGV operation, they began to experience the same issues. Despite the much lighter axle loads since impact is a V^2 issue they were having the same ballast pulverization problems as North American freight lines. This issue got very little publicity but there was major ballast work after this became a problem for them. This issue is why BNSF did and maybe still does use wood ties across ballasted deck bridges in tracks that are otherwise concrete ties. Otherwise, the ballast on the bridge is simply rock between a hammer and an anvil.

More later.

Added information: The Edmonton Light Rail line that opened in 1978 used concrete ties produced by Costain in their Alberta plant. An exception was in the subway stations, where salt-treated wood ties were used. Costain was in Alberta to supply the CN and CP expansion programs that began in the 1970's.

 

[George Harris]

Added information: The Edmonton Light Rail line that opened in 1978 used concrete ties produced by Costain in their Alberta plant. An exception was in the subway stations, where salt-treated wood ties were used.

I would LOVE to hear the logic behind this one.

 

[Willbridge]

I would LOVE to hear the logic behind this one.

The salt-treated ties? There were concerns about noise if concrete ties were used and there were concerns about creosote smells, fire hazards and air pollution with conventional wood ties.

I do know that the Edmonton Fire Department had some demands. I also know that the U of A engineering department provided a lot of input, so it may have been a faculty members' experiment.

 

[UserNameRequired]

The salt-treated ties? There were concerns about noise if concrete ties were used and there were concerns about creosote smells, fire hazards and air pollution with conventional wood ties.

I do know that the Edmonton Fire Department had some demands. I also know that the U of A engineering department provided a lot of input, so it may have been a faculty members' experiment.

I wonder if the salt treatment would accelerate the corrosion of the steel rails and attaching hardware? Interesting.

 

[George Harris]

The salt-treated ties? There were concerns about noise if concrete ties were used and there were concerns about creosote smells, fire hazards and air pollution with conventional wood ties.

I do know that the Edmonton Fire Department had some demands. I also know that the U of A engineering department provided a lot of input, so it may have been a faculty members' experiment.

I wonder if the salt treatment would accelerate the corrosion of the steel rails and attaching hardware? Interesting.

Aaargh!! Another solution to a non-problem that creates a real problem. I seriously doubt the difference in noise would even be measurable, but if so there are other methods of reducing the noise. As to the salt effecting the life of rails, etc, yes it will. This sort of stuff is why engineering offices that deal with transit system politicians and miscellaneous so-called experts need at least one wall padded so you can beat your head against it without injury.

 

[PVD]

Salt Wood (a type of pressure treated lumber) got its name from a man whose name was Salt. (His company still exists today. I don't think the chemical solution is salt. It is a popular alternative to creosote treatment for wood in damp/wet locations.

 

[zephyr17]

Salt Wood (a type of pressure treated lumber) got its name from a man whose name was Salt. (His company still exists today. I don't think the chemical solution is salt. It is a popular alternative to creosote treatment for wood in damp/wet locations.

What is used in the non-sodium chloride "Salt" treatment?

 

[PVD]

not 100% sure micronized copper azole or chromated copper arsenate (avoidance of arsenic compounds pretty typical these days) would be typical in PT lumber that might be in water I need to correct that the wood was often referenced as Salt treated wood before Albert Salt, but he popularized it in the Southeast salts in chemistry are a much wider range of compounds than just NaCl

 

[JWM]

I return to a previous post of mine and state that we are in the twenty-first century. Why are we not laying concrete ties other than cost issues. They last much longer, don't require certain items to keep the tracks in place and 4 feet 8 1/2 inches apart. Why is North America still in the dark ages on this?

 

[Willbridge]

not 100% sure micronized copper azole or chromated copper arsenate (avoidance of arsenic compounds pretty typical these days) would be typical in PT lumber that might be in water I need to correct that the wood was often referenced as Salt treated wood before Albert Salt, but he popularized it in the Southeast salts in chemistry are a much wider range of compounds than just NaCl

In their use in Edmonton tunnel stations, they only were exposed to water during rare events. Some other segments underground used direct fixation. I was working on other aspects and the guys who knew why these choices were made are not available.

1977 - direct fixation on the curved segment between Central and Churchill Stations.


Salt ties.

 

[PVD]

probably just to avoid the creosote hazards of conventional ties (assuming they had a reason to choose ties in the first place)

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

The early use of concrete ties by the Florida East Coast was somewhat of a special case. First, there is no locally grown wood in Florida that is practical for crossties, so there would be additional freight costs to get the wood there. In general, railroad companies count the cost of internal freight haulage of company materials as zero, and most have lines into areas where good timber for cross ties grows. Second, since much of the ground in Florida is sandy and drains well, they did not have the mud pumping through the ballast that is common with other soil types. Concrete ties due to their stiffness significantly increase mud pumping issues. Third, the railroad is nearly flat and straight so that wheel to rail to tie forces are not as much an issue as they are for many other railroads.

Concrete tie track is much less tolerant of ballast quality and subgrade deficiencies that wood tie track. Simply put, wood tie provide a certain amount of cushioning while the cushioning of concrete ties is effectively zero. Concrete in concrete ties has a compressive strength of around 7,000 psi. For comparison, normal structural concrete is usually in the range of 4,000 psi, other than members like bridge beams, which are around 5,000 psi (that number subject to correction.) This is harder than most ballast stone. Thus, the ties would pulverize the ballast. This was/is not that much of a problem under the lighter European axle loads. Renewing the ballast with stronger rock was/is a significant expense. At about the time of the TGV opening, this was a subject of discussion and a major issue with some of the American systems. About a year or so into the TGV operation, they began to experience the same issues. Despite the much lighter axle loads since impact is a V^2 issue they were having the same ballast pulverization problems as North American freight lines. This issue got very little publicity but there was major ballast work after this became a problem for them. This issue is why BNSF did and maybe still does use wood ties across ballasted deck bridges in tracks that are otherwise concrete ties. Otherwise, the ballast on the bridge is simply rock between a hammer and an anvil.

More later.

Super interesting. From Roaming Railfan's videos of Brightline Florida construction:

• One tunnel under 528 was an innovation European slip'n'slide method, first time in the US, in order to keep at least one lane open each way on 528. It took many weeks to get it ready for horizontal hydraulic pushing. One piece of equipment could not be filmed due to proprietary secrets. That reminded me of a submarine tour in the 1970s when we were told not to photograph the top of the conning towers.
• At least one bridge used wooden ties.
• At least one bridge was built with ultra-high performance concrete (UHPC). It has fibers in place of much of the rebar, allowing smaller dimensions and reducing rust and crumbling concerns. https://highways.dot.gov/research/s...ance-concrete/ultra-high-performance-concrete. UHPC was also used for park furniture at the Pier 17 renovation in NYC.