AGR Sleeper Reservations Cancellation Policy (Rescinded)

[PRR 60]

NOTE: This policy was rescinded before it took effect. This discussion thread will remain open to retain and capture discussion concerning the policy decision.

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Starting 1/1/2013, AGR redemption reservations in sleepers that are cancelled less than 15 days prior to travel will not be eligible for redeposit of points or exchange of points to another reservation.

From AGR:

Beginning January 1, 2013 our cancellation policy for redemption travel will change. Any new or existing redemption travel reservations must be canceled before departure to be eligible for exchange or refund of points. If the trip includes sleeping car accommodations, the reservation must be canceled at least 15 days prior to departure to be eligible for exchange or refund of points.

AGR News

That is a BIG change. Book a one-zone roomette with 15,000 points. If for some reason you have to cancel or change the trip within 15 days of travel, you lose the 15,000 points. Wow.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

That is a huge change. For those of us who are not yet retired anyway. I often plan my next trip within a two week window of departure. I also often have last minute changes to previous plans I made long ago. My job does not really care if a personal trip needs to be moved or modified because there was some critical failure somewhere at an inconvenient moment. In the past neither did Amtrak, but now they're itching to void the entire points cost of anything that changes less than two weeks out? This has an impact two ways. No more close-in changes for those who plan way ahead, but also no more last minute vacancies for those of us who plan at the last minute thanks to the cancellations of others. Without any dependable internet access on board Amtrak isn't well suited for my line of work, and without any easy close-in changes Amtrak isn't well suited for my schedule. The new restrictions to close-in changes on both revenue and point redemption sleeper tickets is a pretty big blow to what used to be one of the most passenger friendly policies in domestic travel.

 

[jis]

Amtrak is working hard to discourage use of point, even harder than some airlines do to discourage use of FF miles.

So I guess now it will be Sleeper reservations done only at the last moment when I know absolutely for sure that I am traveling.

Next to come no use of AGR points when Sleepers are in high bucket. And so it goes....

 

[TimePeace]

While I'm not thrilled with the change - which is part of the larger tendency for Amtrak to reduce service and convenience - I don't view this as such a dramatic change. I think most people who travel Amtrak book in advance and don't cancel or change their reservations. For people whose plans are always in flux, it's a bummer. Me, I tend to book LD sleeper trips well in advance and can't remember ever changing one with less than 2 weeks to go. It happens, sure... but this won't impact most riders.

Texas Sunset: >>No more close-in changes for those who plan way ahead, but also no more last minute vacancies for those of us who plan at the last minute thanks to the cancellations of others. <<

Well - I don't know what portion of sleeper tickets are paid for with AGR points vs. dollars (in my experience a minority, as I am often telling other sleeper passengers about AGR and they have never heard of it), but cash tickets that are cancelled will still come available at the last minute, won't they?

 

[Anthony]

Sleeper inventory is limited and expensive, and it is all too easy for people to, let's say, hold a room on the Cardinal (with one sleeping car) until the last minute and then decide to cancel... because there's no penalty for doing so. You get all your points back as long as you call before the train leaves. Meanwhile, that room will probably go out unsold due to the late cancellation.

 

[Anthony]

no more last minute vacancies for those of us who plan at the last minute thanks to the cancellations of others.

Someone could always call to cancel within 15 days -- Amtrak would cancel the room (allowing someone else to book it), they just wouldn't return any points.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Well - I don't know what portion of sleeper tickets are paid for with AGR points vs. dollars (in my experience a minority, as I am often telling other sleeper passengers about AGR and they have never heard of it), but cash tickets that are cancelled will still come available at the last minute, won't they?

As I understand it cash or credit sleeper tickets no longer qualify for full refunds at any point. Those tickets do still qualify for non-extendable electronic vouchers, if I recall correctly, but it's rather less enticing to casually hand over a couple thousand dollars for a round trip bedroom fare when you know there's no practical way to get that money back without giving away $200-$300 in the process. Airlines can obviously get away with that, but when I'm paying that kind of money for a domestic trip I'm usually receiving a refundable ticket in the process. On Amtrak that's simply no longer possible for sleeper passengers.

Sleeper inventory is limited and expensive, and it is all too easy for people to, let's say, hold a room on the Cardinal (with one sleeping car) until the last minute and then decide to cancel... because there's no penalty for doing so. You get all your points back as long as you call before the train leaves. Meanwhile, that room will probably go out unsold due to the late cancellation.

Luckily Amtrak made it easy for folks who were forced to buy coach on sold out sleeper trains to upgrade to newly vacant sleepers and avoid empty rooms being used by the staff as non-rev hideaways. Oh wait, that's right, they made it damn near impossible. My bad. :wacko:

no more last minute vacancies for those of us who plan at the last minute thanks to the cancellations of others.

Someone could always call to cancel within 15 days -- Amtrak would cancel the room (allowing someone else to book it), they just wouldn't return any points.

I enjoy reading about solutions that involve people shooting themselves in the foot for no reason. ^_^

If you're going to lose the points anyway what would be the point of waiting on the phone just so you could cancel your room? Might as well just leave the ticket alone and hope you can still make it somehow. Maybe that suddenly broken foot will heal in a week instead of a month. No benefit to canceling your trip regardless.

 

[Anthony]

Luckily Amtrak made it easy for folks who were forced to buy coach on sold out sleeper trains to upgrade to newly vacant sleepers and avoid empty rooms being used by the staff as non-rev hideaways. Oh wait, that's right, they made it damn near impossible. My bad. :wacko:

Easy enough - just call the 800# to upgrade to sleeper. Pay the going rate with your credit card, get an eTicket emailed to you, show it to the conductor, and be led to that vacant room you have just purchased. No smartphone to display an eTicket document? No problem - the conductor's handheld device can retrieve your modified reservation. Nearly all station stops have some cell phone service (even if it's voice only), and you need not wait more than a couple hours in many cases for the next station if cell signal on your carrier is particularly scarce.

 

[Anthony]

If you're going to lose the points anyway what would be the point of waiting on the phone just so you could cancel your room? Might as well just leave the ticket alone and hope you can still make it somehow. Maybe that suddenly broken foot will heal in a week instead of a month. No benefit to canceling your trip regardless.

Now that a no-show will auto-cancel your reservation, if the customer who hopes to capitalize on someone's cancellation is boarding downline, s/he can scoop up that room at the last minute regardless.

 

[AlanB]

Luckily Amtrak made it easy for folks who were forced to buy coach on sold out sleeper trains to upgrade to newly vacant sleepers and avoid empty rooms being used by the staff as non-rev hideaways. Oh wait, that's right, they made it damn near impossible. My bad. :wacko:

Easy enough - just call the 800# to upgrade to sleeper. Pay the going rate with your credit card, get an eTicket emailed to you, show it to the conductor, and be led to that vacant room you have just purchased. No smartphone to display an eTicket document? No problem - the conductor's handheld device can retrieve your modified reservation. Nearly all station stops have some cell phone service (even if it's voice only), and you need not wait more than a couple hours in many cases for the next station if cell signal on your carrier is particularly scarce.

I agree, it's now easier than every before to do an onboard upgrade. One doesn't have to rely on the whims of a conductor to do one. One can simply take the matter into their own hands and just call Amtrak.

What Amtrak did do however is remove any incentive to do an onboard upgrade. One might just as well take care of any upgrade before ever getting onboard.

 

[TimePeace]

Well - I don't know what portion of sleeper tickets are paid for with AGR points vs. dollars (in my experience a minority, as I am often telling other sleeper passengers about AGR and they have never heard of it), but cash tickets that are cancelled will still come available at the last minute, won't they?

As I understand it cash or credit sleeper tickets no longer qualify for full refunds at any point. Those tickets do still qualify for non-extendable electronic vouchers, if I recall correctly, but it's rather less enticing to casually hand over a couple thousand dollars for a round trip bedroom fare when you know there's no practical way to get that money back without giving away $200-$300 in the process. Airlines can obviously get away with that, but when I'm paying that kind of money for a domestic trip I'm usually receiving a refundable ticket in the process. On Amtrak that's simply no longer possible for sleeper passengers.

Sleeper inventory is limited and expensive, and it is all too easy for people to, let's say, hold a room on the Cardinal (with one sleeping car) until the last minute and then decide to cancel... because there's no penalty for doing so. You get all your points back as long as you call before the train leaves. Meanwhile, that room will probably go out unsold due to the late cancellation.

Luckily Amtrak made it easy for folks who were forced to buy coach on sold out sleeper trains to upgrade to newly vacant sleepers and avoid empty rooms being used by the staff as non-rev hideaways. Oh wait, that's right, they made it damn near impossible. My bad. :wacko:

no more last minute vacancies for those of us who plan at the last minute thanks to the cancellations of others.

Someone could always call to cancel within 15 days -- Amtrak would cancel the room (allowing someone else to book it), they just wouldn't return any points.

I enjoy reading about solutions that involve people shooting themselves in the foot for no reason. ^_^

If you're going to lose the points anyway what would be the point of waiting on the phone just so you could cancel your room? Might as well just leave the ticket alone and hope you can still make it somehow. Maybe that suddenly broken foot will heal in a week instead of a month. No benefit to canceling your trip regardless.

Good question.

How about, being of somewhat generous spirit and letting someone else have a last minute shot at the room. If you know 14 days before the date that you can't go, it becomes available in plenty of time for someone else to take advantage of it, even if you lose the refund.

 

[the_traveler]

That's what I would do too. If I'm going to lose 15K-60K, why not essentially give someone a gift of 15K-60K?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Luckily Amtrak made it easy for folks who were forced to buy coach on sold out sleeper trains to upgrade to newly vacant sleepers and avoid empty rooms being used by the staff as non-rev hideaways. Oh wait, that's right, they made it damn near impossible. My bad. :wacko:

Easy enough - just call the 800# to upgrade to sleeper. Pay the going rate with your credit card, get an eTicket emailed to you, show it to the conductor, and be led to that vacant room you have just purchased. No smartphone to display an eTicket document? No problem - the conductor's handheld device can retrieve your modified reservation. Nearly all station stops have some cell phone service (even if it's voice only), and you need not wait more than a couple hours in many cases for the next station if cell signal on your carrier is particularly scarce.

The issue you originally described (rooms going out vacant due to last minute penalty-free cancellations) was referring to the period BEFORE Amtrak moved to e-ticketing and started cracking down on refund options, correct? The solution I described (easy access to upgrades by coach passengers) also was referring to the same timeline. Giving me today's answer to yesterday's problem makes no sense in this context. In addition, on the routes I travel most mobile service is often useless outside of stops, but stops often don't last long enough to wait on hold and then work through the sale before you're back in the boonies again. Even on a smart phone you're talking about very slow data outside of major metros. That's not to say it would never be possible, but it's hard to imagine you could count on it working when and where you want it to. Not every part of this country is as connected as the North East.

Now that a no-show will auto-cancel your reservation, if the customer who hopes to capitalize on someone's cancellation is boarding downline, s/he can scoop up that room at the last minute regardless.

In the past things would start to open up about a week or so before departure. That was quite workable for me. I can often make plans a few days in advance and get everything ready by then. But what you're describing is waiting until the train is already in motion. Thanks to schedule changes the Sunset Limited no longer works with my schedule. The Texas Eagle schedule still works just fine, but since I'm departing from the first stop on the route there's not much time to see who got canceled as the train will presumably be locked up and moving by then.

I agree, it's now easier than every before to do an onboard upgrade. One doesn't have to rely on the whims of a conductor to do one. One can simply take the matter into their own hands and just call Amtrak. What Amtrak did do however is remove any incentive to do an onboard upgrade. One might just as well take care of any upgrade before ever getting onboard.

So it's easier now than ever before, even though there was nothing ever stopping you from buying the room (at full cost) over the phone in the past? Seems like the only part that changed is that the Conductor doesn't have to call the reservations desk to confirm. Big whoop. Are you really even upgrading at that point? Almost seems like you're simply trashing your previous ticket and buying a whole new ticket to replace it. At which point aren't you're basically just throwing your money away? Unless I'm missing something this does not appear to be much of an improvement.

That's what I would do too. If I'm going to lose 15K-60K, why not essentially give someone a gift of 15K-60K?

I don't think you fully understand the situation. Amtrak gets your 15,000 - 60,000 points and some other passenger must use another 15,000-60,000 additional points (or $300-$3,000) to buy the room a second time for the exact same train on the exact same trip.

 

[PRR 60]

If I have an AGR reservation and will lose all my points anyway, why would I cancel and give away what ever flexibility I have. Even if I am 95% certain I cannot use the reservation, there is now zero incentive for me to give the room away or call to change my reservation.

The real winner is Amtrak. Once the new policy kicks in, Amtrak has a chance to sell the same room twice. Once, with my points that they keep if I cancel within two weeks of travel, then a second time from a possible second reservation for my cancelled room by someone else using either AGR points or cash.

I can't understand the difference between paid reservations and AGR. With a paid sleeper reservation, canceling anytime up to time of departure will get you a voucher toward future travel. With AGR, cancel less them 15 days prior to travel and you forfeit all the points. Why?

 

[Anthony]

I can't understand the difference between paid reservations and AGR. With a paid sleeper reservation, canceling anytime up to time of departure will get you a voucher toward future travel. With AGR, cancel less them 15 days prior to travel and you forfeit all the points. Why?

Points and dollars are very different animals, and Amtrak is certainly not alone in the travel industry when it treats them differently. Points are a potentially eternal liability on Amtrak's books, while your eVoucher balance is only a liability for the year until it expires -- or until you use it toward travel, at which time it gets realized as revenue. Points often cost Amtrak money when they are used for travel (if the use of points displaces a paying customer on a sold-out train), and points always cost Amtrak real money when used for non-travel redemptions (like gift cards or hotels). It's hard for a paid reservation to cost Amtrak anything.

AGR is still an extremely generous program -- if they have to make some small adjustments that airlines and other competitors already made years ago in order to remain innovative and generous in so many other areas, personally I don't mind.

 

[AlanB]

I agree, it's now easier than every before to do an onboard upgrade. One doesn't have to rely on the whims of a conductor to do one. One can simply take the matter into their own hands and just call Amtrak. What Amtrak did do however is remove any incentive to do an onboard upgrade. One might just as well take care of any upgrade before ever getting onboard.

So it's easier now than ever before, even though there was nothing ever stopping you from buying the room (at full cost) over the phone in the past? Seems like the only part that changed is that the Conductor doesn't have to call the reservations desk to confirm. Big whoop. Are you really even upgrading at that point? Almost seems like you're simply trashing your previous ticket and buying a whole new ticket to replace it. At which point aren't you're basically just throwing your money away? Unless I'm missing something this does not appear to be much of an improvement.

No, in the past you couldn't call up the 800 number once you were onboard to do an upgrade. You could only go to the conductor, whom as you like to claim was never interested in doing an upgrade. Now, one doesn't need to have to hope for a good conductor if one changes their mind once onboard or if someone no shows. Now one can do the upgrade themselves and basically take the conductor out of the loop.

And you couldn't even call if you were in a station, unless you were in a staffed station where you could then run to the counter to exchange your tickets. Now anyone can call even from an unstaffed station to do a last minute upgrade.

That means it is easier!

Now, do I like some of the other changes? NO! But it most certainly is easier to do an last minute or onboard upgrade than ever before. And one doesn't have to worry about a fickle conductor!

 

[TimePeace]

I can't understand the difference between paid reservations and AGR. With a paid sleeper reservation, canceling anytime up to time of departure will get you a voucher toward future travel. With AGR, cancel less them 15 days prior to travel and you forfeit all the points. Why?

Points and dollars are very different animals, and Amtrak is certainly not alone in the travel industry when it treats them differently. Points are a potentially eternal liability on Amtrak's books, while your eVoucher balance is only a liability for the year until it expires -- or until you use it toward travel, at which time it gets realized as revenue. Points often cost Amtrak money when they are used for travel (if the use of points displaces a paying customer on a sold-out train), and points always cost Amtrak real money when used for non-travel redemptions (like gift cards or hotels). It's hard for a paid reservation to cost Amtrak anything.

AGR is still an extremely generous program -- if they have to make some small adjustments that airlines and other competitors already made years ago in order to remain innovative and generous in so many other areas, personally I don't mind.

What he said.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

I usually book my AGR trips several weeks ahead of time and while this new policy does add a bit of "fear factor" to to equation, I don't see it as an Endgame scenario. I try to book as early as possible because, especially if several trains are involved, I want to be sure I can get an upstairs Sleeper all the way through.

 

[the_traveler]

Even if it was still before the train departs or an hour before departure, Amtrak could resell that room. So what incentive is there for me to call? :blink: And you mentioned airlines. Is there a change fee or a redeposit fee like the airlines, or will the AGR points just go bye-bye? :angry: I don't agree or like it at all!

 

[crescent2]

This is not good news even for retired people. Older people tend to have more health issues, and family members with health issues, that can necessitate an unforeseen travel change near the time of departure. The new policy seems overly restrictive; seems that partial points or a voucher could be returned, or have a shorter time frame than 15 days out. Or charge a "change fee" for changing the reservation near departure time (15 days still seems a long time even for that). Paying a fee would be more acceptable than losing everything.

I agree there is absolutely no incentive to cancel the trip if you are going to lose everything anyway. With a total loss the alternative, I would just hold the tickets and wait to see if circumstances change somehow to allow the trip. This factor alone seems reason enough for Amtrak to have at least a slightly less restrictive policy. Of course, Amtrak has already been "paid" in AGR, but would lose the opportunity to sell the room a second time. Most passengers would probably be unaware an empty room was available on board.

If I lost my 25,000 points I would NOT be a happy camper!

 

[PRR 60]

This is not good news even for retired people. Older people tend to have more health issues, and family members with health issues, that can necessitate an unforeseen travel change near the time of departure. The new policy seems overly restrictive; seems that partial points or a voucher could be returned, or have a shorter time frame than 15 days out. Or charge a "change fee" for changing the reservation near departure time (15 days still seems a long time even for that). Paying a fee would be more acceptable than losing everything.

I agree there is absolutely no incentive to cancel the trip if you are going to lose everything anyway. With a total loss the alternative, I would just hold the tickets and wait to see if circumstances change somehow to allow the trip. This factor alone seems reason enough for Amtrak to have at least a slightly less restrictive policy. Of course, Amtrak has already been "paid" in AGR, but would lose the opportunity to sell the room a second time. Most passengers would probably be unaware an empty room was available on board.

If I lost my 25,000 points I would NOT be a happy camper!

The issue with retired people and medical uncertainty is valid, and the demographic of sleeper travel seems to skew toward the older passenger. This policy will certainly make me think twice about booking a sleeper as an AGR award.

It was mentioned that Amtrak was simply catching up to what airline frequent flyer programs did years ago. I am not aware of any airline that requires members to forfeit all miles for a cancelled award reservation. Most have a redeposit fee, typically $150 (waived for top level elites), but if you booked a 40,000 mile trip FF award trip and cancel, you at least get all your miles back. The loss is $150. That is it. Lose all my AGR points used for a trip because my wife or I got sick? Sorry, that stinks.

 

[Blackwolf]

This brings up an interesting question. You can buy, with physical money, travel insurance that will help you out in the event of an unplanned event which would not allow you to travel.

Why not offer, for those with a concern over loosing thousands of points, an insurance offering that would 'protect' them should an event that is covered occur?

Seems like a win/better than nothing option to me. Amtrak stands to make even more money off of insurance premiums, and AGR members (at a cost) stand to not loose everything point-wise if something happens.

 

[PRR 60]

This brings up an interesting question. You can buy, with physical money, travel insurance that will help you out in the event of an unplanned event which would not allow you to travel.

Why not offer, for those with a concern over loosing thousands of points, an insurance offering that would 'protect' them should an event that is covered occur?

Seems like a win/better than nothing option to me. Amtrak stands to make even more money off of insurance premiums, and AGR members (at a cost) stand to not loose everything point-wise if something happens.

I thought of the same thing. I'm not aware of any option to buy insurance to reimburse miles or points in the event of cancellation for good cause maybe for the simple reason that no program has put miles or points at risk like this before. I would think such a program would be attractive, although I would prefer the simple route of charging a reasonable redeposit fee.

 

[Anthony]

I'm sure if there were a valid, documented hardship such as a medical or bereavement situation, you could call AGR to seek some compassionate discretion by an agent or supervisor. I believe Amtrak takes such issues into account for some paid travel situations as well.

 

[the_traveler]

True, but even without a compassionate agent or supervisor, you can get a voucher for what you paid. Not so with the 60K you "paid"! :angry: