Airo - Amfleet I replacement Siemens Inter City Trainsets (ICT) (2-3Q 2024)

[Lcon]

I can’t comment on most of these services but when they announced the Consists for the New Haven Springfield service and Vermonter I was surprised.
The Hartford line service is usually one locomotive and 3 coaches. The Airo they plan for it is 6 coaches though those coaches now include a cafe car.

The Vermonter on the other hand is usually a 5 car consist. Airo would go up to an 8 car.

I keep seeing mention of a Business class which also doesn’t exist on the Flyer. It technically does on the Vermonter but it’s an awful lot of money for a can of soda.
In the Northeast regional it’s even worse as they use Amfleet 1 coaches. The Flyer and Vermonter use Amfleet 2 for coach. It’s almost like Amtrak is punishing business class for not taking the Acela.

Anyway this makes me wonder if Amtrak isn’t just looking to improve its rolling stock but also improve and expand its business class services across its commuter trains.

 

[Harmon Shay]

Sounds like Amtrak is going to be hauling a lot of empty seats around on New Haven-Springfield and the Vermonter, unless they're planning on doing a heck of a lot of promotion to generate new ridership.

 

[Lcon]

Well CT rail also runs on the Hartford line and they just ordered a bunch of Alstom coaches for it. It seems like the Airo sets are intended for a very particular scheduled service of through trains that likely run all the way to NYC. If that’s the case then it could be that those 5 passenger coaches are filled from Greenfield to New Haven. Which would explain why the Valley flyer is also sometimes thrown in the list. If that’s the case then it’s a combination of three trains starting in Greenfield to Springfield as the Flyer on to Hartford then New Haven as the Hartford line where it becomes electric and on to NYC and beyond??

The Vermonter has long been wanted to expand north to Montreal again. If that happened perhaps those extra 3 coaches would be justified.

 

[MARC Rider]

I'm curious to know if the Northeast Regionals fill 8 o9 9 cars south of DC and north of, say, New Haven. Just wondering how many empty seats are being dragged around in this now mostly fixed-consist era.

Believe me, I've seen the Northeast Regionals fill up north of New Haven. As for the south of DC service, a large percentage of the Boston-Washington trains are continuation service from Virginia. Thus, they either need to haul the 8-9 cars into Virginia, or break the train up and have a cross-platform transfer in Washington, which I would think is undesirable. Hopefully, with the reduction in dwell time in Washington now that an engine change is no longer needed and the improvements in infrastructure planned by Virginia, there will be a lot more Northeast Regional through traffic down into Virginia in the future, thus filling those 8-9 cars south of Washington.

 

[Amtrak25]

There are no Amfleet-2 coaches running anywhere east of New York, only the Adirondack and Boston section of the Lake Shore.

All the Amtrak New Haven - Springfield Shuttles that I have seen are two cars. Maybe they plan on sending them though to New York some day and thru run with the Keystones, but I have no idea. But that requires Metro North's blessing.

I expect the Vermonter would get the 2 of the 26 Type B-1 ("six-car rakes, the end car adjacent to the locomotive will be fitted with a transformer and pantograph"), even if it goes to Montreal some day.

 

[BlackDiamond]

I can’t comment on most of these services but when they announced the Consists for the New Haven Springfield service and Vermonter I was surprised.
The Hartford line service is usually one locomotive and 3 coaches. The Airo they plan for it is 6 coaches though those coaches now include a cafe car.

The Vermonter on the other hand is usually a 5 car consist. Airo would go up to an 8 car.

There is also the Downeaster which is supposed to get Airo. I don't know what size consist they will use. Currently it is 5 coaches, one of which is a cafe/BC car.

 

[jis]

There is also the Downeaster which is supposed to get Airo. I don't know what size consist they will use. Currently it is 5 coaches, one of which is a cafe/BC car.

Downeasters will most likely get the 6 car B-1s.

 

[JWM]

Sounds like Amtrak is going to be hauling a lot of empty seats around on New Haven-Springfield and the Vermonter, unless they're planning on doing a heck of a lot of promotion to generate new ridership.

I think the demand is there and we'll see what happeneds.

Wouldn't longer Airo sets increase track defects?

Also, I do predict that Amtrak will want to have at least two manufactures for equipment operation out of busy stations, such as Chicago. And since Amtrak is looking to order a bilevel (and stainless steel) train-set, this leaves Alstom, Kawasaki, and possibly Stadler as the likely picks. (I don't think CAF will win this contract and Hitachi is still very new to the American market).

If any more contracts go to CAF, then they should have their heads examined. Stadler is a great pick.

 

[daybeers]

For some reason, there is a lot of speculation and incorrect information on this particular page of the thread.

One only needs to look to the Siemens Venture Wikipedia article to find the summary of Amtrak's Asset Plan: 6-car sets for the Adirondack, Cascades, Carolinian, Downeaster, Empire Service, Ethan Allen Express, Keystone, Maple Leaf, Palmetto, Pennsylvanian, and Vermonter. 8-car sets for the Northeast Regional.

It is unclear what is planned for the Hartford Line and Valley Flyer services. Both usually run with two cars and rarely a third. Amtrak is strapped for equipment, otherwise there would be more cars added. I predict that CTrail will take over operation of more trips on the NHV-SPG Hartford Line once their new cars come online in 2026. Since the service overhaul in 2018, I think this has already happened to two runs. I also think other runs will be replaced by more Northeast Regional trains to/from SPG. It is certainly possible that 6-car sets will run on the 62-mile trip between NHV-SPG and turn back around, as the short Hartford Line consists do now, but I doubt Amtrak will use the equipment that inefficiently.

It is public knowledge that at least one Keystone roundtrip will be extended from NYP to SPG. Unclear when due to Penn Station Access and the East River Tunnel rehab taking place.

The Valley Flyer refers to trains that originate or terminate in Greenfield. This service has healthy ridership, so I can see a future where MassDOT funds more runs to Greenfield.

The Vermonter is 5 cars north of NHV, with a sixth added during the engine swap for the rest of the run to WAS.

I'm not quite sure why people are making assumptions about ridership without looking at the data. I do not forsee empty cars rolling around once the Airos come online, especially because there are usually not empty cars now. Just look at the NEC ridership this year. Amtrak is going to smash records.

 

[OmahaRoad]

Good info! Man, will the Carolinian need more than 6 cars in the future, though. Ridership is increasingly so much each year, and it often sells out as it is. I'd have to assume having 7 or 8 cars on the Carolinian is much closer in view than a desired, but not in official planning cards yet, 2nd Carolinian frequency.

 

[jis]

Amtrak has plenty of add on options attached to this order to take care of future growth needs.

 

[OmahaRoad]

Oh, that's great to hear! I should have looked up if they had options or not. Thanks!

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

One only needs to look to the Siemens Venture Wikipedia article to find the summary of Amtrak's Asset Plan: 6-car sets for the Adirondack, Cascades, Carolinian, Downeaster, Empire Service, Ethan Allen Express, Keystone, Maple Leaf, Palmetto, Pennsylvanian, and Vermonter. 8-car sets for the Northeast Regional.

If you don't trust Wikipedia, here is a handy snapshot from Amtrak Service Asset Line Plans FY22-27. The numbers include the base order and 10 short-term options, exercised in 2023, for a total of 83 sets. (The options were 8 B-2's and 2 C's.)

Notes, in addition to all the good features we know about already:

• "The first ICTs are currently forecast to enter service on Amtrak Cascades in 2025, with all trainsets in service by the end of 2030." (Including the 10 options?)
• "The ICT program includes a 23-year TSSSA for Siemens to provide technical support and spare parts."
• "Significant reliability improvements are anticipated. The TSSSA will impose stiff penalties on Siemens if the frequency of 'bad order' events exceeds specified thresholds."

 

[Amtrak25]

I find the "Hartford Lline" and Valley Flyer very confusing.
The former is a shuttle from New Haven, usually 2 cars if Amtrak equipment. I think a few Springfield shuttles and Valley Flyers are run-thrus, but in any case pool Amtrak equipment, even 2 P42's when there is no Metrolilner cab car.

In the Airo era, just speculating anything with Amtrak equipment becomes 6 cars if to Harrisburg or the Vermonter, if not a Washington Regional. But since Amtrak won't be supplying 2 or 3 car trains, I think Conn-DOT equipment will be taking over all the others, even to Greenfield, MA. They are getting new commuter coaches at $5.25 million a pop. (they got taken to the cleaners).

 

[Harmon Shay]

I think the demand is there and we'll see what happeneds.

If any more contracts go to CAF, then they should have their heads examined. Stadler is a great pick.

Thanks for all the responses to my question. My rather limited NEC knowledge is now expanded.

 

[lamegaming]

any chance that the wsdot airos are actually on time for 2025? afaik they still need to be furnished plus testing

 

[jis]

any chance that the wsdot airos are actually on time for 2025? afaik they still need to be furnished plus testing

Cascades will not be getting ALC42Es since there is no E in its entire route. They are going to be powered by the currently existing SC-44s, so the amount of testing for them would be much less than for the actual dual mode Aeros.

 

[ST Saint]

any chance that the wsdot airos are actually on time for 2025? afaik they still need to be furnished plus testing

I imagine we'll see a set or two on site next year for training. I don't think they'll need much testing since they are truly just Venture sets which have already been running for a while. The only significant testing would be the sets with the APVs which will come after.

That being said, I'm still hoping for another sjvrailfan snooping post from the Siemens factory.

 

[jis]

I imagine we'll see a set or two on site next year for training. I don't think they'll need much testing since they are truly just Venture sets which have already been running for a while. The only significant testing would be the sets with the APVs which will come after.

That being said, I'm still hoping for another sjvrailfan snooping post from the Siemens factory.

Are they getting the battery APVs? They don't have any electrified tracks so where would they use the catenary APVs?

 

[Goldspike_Railfanning]

Are they getting the battery APVs? They don't have any electrified tracks so where would they use the catenary APVs?

The Cascades sets are fully diesel. Essentially, it’s what Midwest has but with different interiors and a cab car. Also the battery APVs that the Empire Services are getting aren’t for long term use. The point of them is so that the diesel engines aren’t running in the tunnel to NY Penn and in the station itself. Other than that, the battery APV sets are basically diesel too.

 

[jis]

The Cascades sets are fully diesel. Essentially, it’s what Midwest has but with different interiors and a cab car. Also the battery APVs that the Empire Services are getting aren’t for long term use. The point of them is so that the diesel engines aren’t running in the tunnel to NY Penn and in the station itself. Other than that, the battery APV sets are basically diesel too.

Thank you. I was trying to get someone other than me to say it since when I say it, it seem to fall on deaf ears

 

[Amtrak25]

Will the Cascade ones be solid train sets or married pair of cars like Chicago's ?

 

[Harmon Shay]

Thank you. I was trying to get someone other than me to say it since when I say it, it seem to fall on deaf ears

Actually, the Cascades are supposed to be getting two hybrid locomotives along with its Airo order.

 

[thefirewarde]

Might want to double check what locomotives the Cascades are getting. I believe it's two diesels, with no APV to make them either battery diesel electrics or electric diesel electrics.

There's some noise made that the battery APV sets (NOT the Cascades sets) will be able to store and release dynamic braking energy to help with acceleration. The saving grace of that order is they're only a replacement APV away from being standard Airo sets, and a yard visit and software update from being pure diesel sets - if the battery APV doesn't work out, at least 7/8 of the consist is still useful new equipment.

 

[Harmon Shay]

I imagine we'll see a set or two on site next year for training. I don't think they'll need much testing since they are truly just Venture sets which have already been running for a while. The only significant testing would be the sets with the APVs which will come after.

That being said, I'm still hoping for another sjvrailfan snooping post from the Siemens factory.

Our Washington State DOT's been told by Siemens that, as of now, Cascades Airo trainset deliveries will start either right on time, I believe in December of next year, or maybe only a week or two late. Siemens evidently does have some concerns about a couple of supply chains, but they're apparently feeling pretty confident about their prediction. It seems to me there's also a question of whether the Oregon Talgos will stay in the fleet for protection or possible expansion. They won't be anywhere near aged out in 2026. We need eight trainsets to keep current Cascades schedules operating and can get by on seven, but if two trainsets, either Talgo or Horizon, go out of service at the same time, we have to call buses for one of the equipment rotations.