Amtrak Asks Two People Who Use Wheelchairs To Pay $25,000 For A Ride (NPR 1/17/20)

[jis]

What I mean by private companies is lets say you have an issue with one vendor who can’t cater to ADA needs because they don’t have expertise in it or it is cost prohibitive but there are other firms who can do it, there is no need to force everyone to comply as you can choose appropriate vendors which are competitive. But there should be vendors who are ADA complaint and there should also be profit in it as well.

With Amtrak, the agency is subsidized by taxpayers. Not every private transportation firm has to deal with handicap accessible passengers in the private sector but some do offer options.

You are free to feel so but that is not what the law says. [emoji57]

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Well Amtrak got the message. Three stories on this subject on NPR. Amtrak has end the rule, claiming the rule was not meant to be applied in this case. Of course it begs to wonder when this rule was suppose to be applied. Should of never occurred in the first place.

https://www.npr.org/2020/01/22/798694336/amtrak-reverses-course-on-25-000-bill

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Also of note the train had extra staff assigned to assist these passengers both enroute and at the station.

Seem like this is the new Amtrak. Do something dumb than regroup and do something dumber.

Still available for the CEO job, not hard to do better.

 

[Qapla]

The problem comes as to how much any company or service needs to comply.

As I understand it, Amtrak does have seating for wheelchair(s) - they may not have the number of them these people wanted ... but they do have what the law requires.

Take, for example, Walmart. They have ADA restrooms and they also have those electric shopping carts for ADA. However, there are times when there are more people who need to use the restroom at the same time than there are ADA stalls - other times, the ADA stalls sit empty and unused. The same holds true for the electric carts. How many should a store have on hand? If they have 5 and 6 are needed - should they be required to have 6, 7, 8 ? What if they have 15 electric carts but a transport from a retirement home shows up and they need 20 electric carts. Should they be required to buy extra carts just in case?

At what point does Amtrak need to supply wheelchair seating .. do they need to provide room for 3 in each car? What happens when a 4th person gets on? If they had 10 in each car ... what happens when those not needing ADA want to board and there are no seats because space for 10 wheelchairs have been set aside even though that space is no being used?

There is no simple answer ... no matter what they do, someone will be left out, infringed upon or just complain.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

There is no simple answer ... no matter what they do, someone will be left out, infringed upon or just complain.

There is a simple answer... make reasonable accommodations. If a group calls ahead to reserve extra wheelchair space and you can accommodate them by taking some seats out, do that. If you have to build a new rail car to accommodate them, that’s not as reasonable.

 

[jis]

So would reasonable accommodation for normal people who want to travel on a sold out train include adding cars which may not be available too?

 

[Qapla]

Is it reasonable that if my whole family decides to go on a train trip they should guarantee that we can all sit together?

We already know that Amtrak does not consider serving quality food to everyone who wants to purchase it reasonable -

 

[jis]

Is it reasonable that if my whole family decides to go on a train trip they should guarantee that we can all sit together?

Depends.

In an assigned seating reserved system if booking is done early enough to find seats together and reserve them, yes. Otherwise in general no.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

When me and my mom rode Acela we couldn’t find seats together. We sat separate until Philadelphia.

 

[AmtrakWPK]

And also HERE: https://www.nydailynews.com/news/na...0200121-bu23c3m7xzc4dcss2m4b3jrsfq-story.html

 

[TinCan782]

DUCKWORTH, DURBIN & GARCÍA TO AMTRAK CEO: COMMIT TO MAKING AMTRAK AFFORDABLE, ACCESSIBLE AND RELIABLE FOR CUSTOMERS WITH DISABILITIES
https://www.duckworth.senate.gov/ne...-and-reliable-for-customers-with-disabilities

 

[Larry H.]

I wish my Senator were as worried about the way Anderson is taking Amtrak as they are about wheel chairs. I worry that the Food and Diners are a right much as a place for wheel chairs. I know its a terrible problem to have some disability no matter what it is, however we tend to carry it to extremes and the cost of implementing huge changes for a small fraction of the population just seems like overkill. Generally some parts of the population are never happy unless they have so way to force another "Cause" on us so they can feel good about it. In towns busses had to changed to admit wheel chairs and the disabled. It cost a fortune and very few people used it. We could provide wheel chair availailable small buses or vans to move the few people who would use the service in the first place at a way lower cost and disruption to every one else. I don't look to see it happen though, the forces of feel good changes is a rising tide.

 

[Bonser]

I wish my Senator were as worried about the way Anderson is taking Amtrak as they are about wheel chairs. I worry that the Food and Diners are a right much as a place for wheel chairs. I know its a terrible problem to have some disability no matter what it is, however we tend to carry it to extremes and the cost of implementing huge changes for a small fraction of the population just seems like overkill. Generally some parts of the population are never happy unless they have so way to force another "Cause" on us so they can feel good about it. In towns busses had to changed to admit wheel chairs and the disabled. It cost a fortune and very few people used it. We could provide wheel chair availailable small buses or vans to move the few people who would use the service in the first place at a way lower cost and disruption to every one else. I don't look to see it happen though, the forces of feel good changes is a rising tide.

While I certainly agree that in some cases the tail is wagging the dog, accommodating wheelchairs might not be one of them.Even though I don't think Amtrak should have to make room for an unlimited number on every train I'm not sure if 5 wheelchairs is at an unreasonable threshold. BTW, for a few months every year I'm in SF and take MUNI (trolleys, cable cars, buses and trackless trolleys) daily. I often see wheelchairs being accommodated - at least 4 or 5 times weekly, sometimes more. So I don't agree with you that they are seldom used. It seems the more accessible and welcoming transit is the more people make use of it.

 

[Barb Stout]

I wish my Senator were as worried about the way Anderson is taking Amtrak as they are about wheel chairs. I worry that the Food and Diners are a right much as a place for wheel chairs. I know its a terrible problem to have some disability no matter what it is, however we tend to carry it to extremes and the cost of implementing huge changes for a small fraction of the population just seems like overkill. Generally some parts of the population are never happy unless they have so way to force another "Cause" on us so they can feel good about it. In towns busses had to changed to admit wheel chairs and the disabled. It cost a fortune and very few people used it. We could provide wheel chair availailable small buses or vans to move the few people who would use the service in the first place at a way lower cost and disruption to every one else. I don't look to see it happen though, the forces of feel good changes is a rising tide.

I frequently see people in wheelchairs on public transportation. And what with the aging of America and an increase in chronic diseases, we will be experiencing even more people in wheelchairs. Rather than saying those people don't deserve to get around, our society should adjust to reality. Furthermore, when the spaces for people in wheelchairs are not taken on Amtrak, I have observed luggage put there and the first time I road Amtrak, my luggage was put in an empty wheelchair slot which I found incredibly handy because I could actually then open my luggage to get stuff out.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

I wish my Senator were as worried about the way Anderson is taking Amtrak as they are about wheel chairs. I worry that the Food and Diners are a right much as a place for wheel chairs.

I think all of this is interconnected. Trying to get food in the new flexible dining car is difficult under any circumstances--nothing to hold onto, since they took some seats out to make room for garbage cans, and it must be especially difficult if you have a wheelchair or cane and are expected to carry your own food and bus your own table. So that limits people to eating in their room, even if they would like to go to the flexiteria.

Plus, as we all get older, the emphasis, even from groups that are supposed to be our advocates, is not on more and better-quality long-distance train service, but rather on how to drive safely as an older person on the road. (For example, I have never read anything put out by AARP about train travel, except perhaps an article here or there on the Rocky Mountaineer as a luxury trip.)

I think, as a group, older train advocates tend to be polite and not vocal, so we don't get the press and attention that other groups (deservedly in many cases) do. Not one national candidate on either side, for example, has mentioned Amtrak and making it a first choice for travel--not enough vocal advocates and not enough of us in general for them to care, I believe.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

ADA laws exist literally to say, businesses have to spend the money to make their facilities accessible to all people.

If you are a small coffee shop you can’t say “well I’m not spending the money to make the restroom ADA because the one ADA Customer we get doesn’t buy enough coffee to make it worth the money” that’s the attitude that forced the ADA law into being.

And the same should be true of transit. All people deserve the right to be able to travel, shop in stores, etc.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

I think that is part of what I was trying to convey about the new flex dining situation. Wouldn't the new setup flout all sorts of safety rules? Even the youngest and most acrobatic person is likely to have trouble moving around a moving car with nothing to hold onto and carrying their food while they pick up their utensils.

I am waiting (not wishing it on anyone, of course, but waiting for the inevitable) for someone to trip and then start the series of lawsuits against Amtrak for unsafe conditions in the dining car. That might be the only thing that gets them to change.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I think that is part of what I was trying to convey about the new flex dining situation. Wouldn't the new setup flout all sorts of safety rules? Even the youngest and most acrobatic person is likely to have trouble moving around a moving car with nothing to hold onto and carrying their food while they pick up their utensils.

I am waiting (not wishing it on anyone, of course, but waiting for the inevitable) for someone to trip and then start the series of lawsuits against Amtrak for unsafe conditions in the dining car. That might be the only thing that gets them to change.

In theory you could ask your attendant or the dining car attendant for assistance.

In my case on the silver meteor one of the sca’s did in fact bring me my food when it was ready.

Not that I’m defending contemporary dining.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

In theory you could ask your attendant or the dining car attendant for assistance.

In my case on the silver meteor one of the sca’s did in fact bring me my food when it was ready.

Not that I’m defending contemporary dining.

And they have handled bags. On my trip last fall I was on 3 trains with flex dining. Sometimes my food was bagged w/o my asking, other times not, but I’m sure I could have asked for a bag.

 

[Qapla]

ADA laws exist literally to say, businesses have to spend the money to make their facilities accessible to all people.

If you are a small coffee shop you can’t say “well I’m not spending the money to make the restroom ADA because the one ADA Customer we get doesn’t buy enough coffee to make it worth the money” that’s the attitude that forced the ADA law into being.

And the same should be true of transit. All people deserve the right to be able to travel, shop in stores, etc.

Yes, the ADA laws are to make it so the disabled and/or partially disabled have the same access as those without disabilities. However, like you pointed out, if a small business refused to comply because of the cost they would be in violation of the law - the same holds true for transit ... in this case, Amtrak.

However, if that small coffee shop complied with the ADA requirement and made one restroom ADA - they would meet the legal requirement. What happens though if two people need the ADA restroom at the same time. Should that small shop have to spend their money to build a second ADA room? ... a third?

Amtrak already meets the ADA requirement for wheelchairs. They have space for a wheelchair in each coach car and a handicapped room in the sleeper car. On the trains I have been on, they also have some seats set aside for those who use a folding chair that allows them to sit in the train seat during travel with easy access to their chair.

This situation was one where the "requested" ADA facilities exceeded the available "required" facilities - in a case like this ... who is to pay for the extras? Going back to that coffee shop - since they already comply with the ADA law by having one ADA restroom ... who should pay for an extra ADA restroom for the "one time use"?

While I can sympathize with the group that wanted to travel together - how many non-ADA groups have had to pay extra so their group could sit together? Who argues for them? Where is the news story about group of tourists that could not all sit together unless they rented the whole car at a premium price? Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what sort of fee the School Patrol pays to use the train to go to DC?

There has been mention before that the H-room in the sleeper may not be available if you do not book early ... how come there have not been any headlines about not having enough H-rooms or what it would cost to convert another of the bedrooms to ADA for a "one-time" trip because two people wanted to travel together and both wanted/needed an H-room?


BTW - I should mention, I have a handicapped placard - though not in a wheelchair, I have never seen or been provided a place to hang/store my cane at my seat while riding on the train - nor have I seen any headlines or news stories about those of us that walk with canes being provided with at seat storage for our canes so we don't have to hold them the entire time.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Yes, the ADA laws are to make it so the disabled and/or partially disabled have the same access as those without disabilities. However, like you pointed out, if a small business refused to comply because of the cost they would be in violation of the law - the same holds true for transit ... in this case, Amtrak.

However, if that small coffee shop complied with the ADA requirement and made one restroom ADA - they would meet the legal requirement. What happens though if two people need the ADA restroom at the same time. Should that small shop have to spend their money to build a second ADA room? ... a third?

Amtrak already meets the ADA requirement for wheelchairs. They have space for a wheelchair in each coach car and a handicapped room in the sleeper car. On the trains I have been on, they also have some seats set aside for those who use a folding chair that allows them to sit in the train seat during travel with easy access to their chair.

This situation was one where the "requested" ADA facilities exceeded the available "required" facilities - in a case like this ... who is to pay for the extras? Going back to that coffee shop - since they already comply with the ADA law by having one ADA restroom ... who should pay for an extra ADA restroom for the "one time use"?

While I can sympathize with the group that wanted to travel together - how many non-ADA groups have had to pay extra so their group could sit together? Who argues for them? Where is the news story about group of tourists that could not all sit together unless they rented the whole car at a premium price? Just out of curiosity, does anyone know what sort of fee the School Patrol pays to use the train to go to DC?

There has been mention before that the H-room in the sleeper may not be available if you do not book early ... how come there have not been any headlines about not having enough H-rooms or what it would cost to convert another of the bedrooms to ADA for a "one-time" trip because two people wanted to travel together and both wanted/needed an H-room?


BTW - I should mention, I have a handicapped placard - though not in a wheelchair, I have never seen or been provided a place to hang/store my cane at my seat while riding on the train - nor have I seen any headlines or news stories about those of us that walk with canes being provided with at seat storage for our canes so we don't have to hold them the entire time.

I was replying to the post above mine, who suggested that busses shouldn’t have to spend the money for ADA accessibility.

The funny thing is, if Amtrak hadn’t asked them to pay $25k and just said “I’m sorry that train only has space for 1 chair per car and we currently don’t have the maintenance crew needed to alter the cars” - they probably would have been just fine.

 

[me_little_me]

It's apples to ice cream to compare a small cafe to Amtrak, a large corporation.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

It's apples to ice cream to compare a small cafe to Amtrak, a large corporation.

If both apples and ice cream had to follow ADA laws... not sure what the point of that comment is?

 

[Thirdrail7]

Well Amtrak got the message. Three stories on this subject on NPR. Amtrak has end the rule, claiming the rule was not meant to be applied in this case. Of course it begs to wonder when this rule was suppose to be applied. Should of never occurred in the first place.
https://www.npr.org/2020/01/22/798694336/amtrak-reverses-course-on-25-000-bill

People that don't have a high impact lobbying group, like the toys For Tots group or the Train Jam group.

I was replying to the post above mine, who suggested that busses shouldn’t have to spend the money for ADA accessibility.

The funny thing is, if Amtrak hadn’t asked them to pay $25k and just said “I’m sorry that train only has space for 1 chair per car and we currently don’t have the maintenance crew needed to alter the cars” - they probably would have been just fine.

That would have been a lie though. Once again, I would like to point out, this was not one person per car. They all wanted to sit together, necessitating the removal of seats over a large space of a car. Since that not only impacts that specific train but other trains until the car can make it back to the shop, that can lead to loss of revenue, plus costs. A reasonable accommodation is the law of the land but how much should go towards that goal? If they wanted sleepers, should they alter the sleepers?

This is where I expect Mr. Anderson to play hardball.

I fully expect him to take the letter from Senator Duckworth and turn it on its head.

He'll probably point out that he works from Congress, but they have given him a mandate via PRIAA to minimize the subsidies and work to reduce losses and his policies are working. As a "for-profit" operation, he'll ask how that will work if he has to continue with unfunded mandates that, even in the eyes of the group "go above and beyond." He can then point out that even with record funding, it is a drop in the bucket compared to what is needed to make Amtrak ADA compliant.

He should close the letter by saying he looks forward to meeting with the senators to discuss how they intend to fund Amtrak to allow it to become more ADA accessible and cover the losses associated with their plan and to add to the executive staff.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

They all wanted to sit together, necessitating the removal of seats over a large space of a car

That can’t be true, because the solution was for 3 to ride the train, and 2 to ride in a chartered van. The 3 riding the train would still be in separate cars. They just wanted to all ride on the same train.