Amtrak California to Palm Springs!

[Dan O]

I hope the stop in Palm Springs has good public transit to the station as it appears to be nowhere near the town. It looks to be closer to White Water which is a cool place to hike and see animals but probably doesn't have enough folks to support a train.

 

[Blackwolf]

The station serving Palm Springs is a misnomer; it serves a patch of sand located in the vicinity of Palm Springs. It is just a platform and parking lot located a considerable distance from town, with no public transit currently serving it that I'm aware of. The Amtrak Thruway buses stop at the much more accessible Palm Springs Airport.

Maybe that would change if Amtrak served the station during daylight hours? From a historical standpoint, where was the train station for Palm Springs located back when the Class 1's operated passenger service? Or did it even have one?

 

[Paulus]

Can this service be added in with the current equipment pool of Surfliner sets? Maybe less time idling in LA?

Probably not.

As an aside, the current Thruway bus on this route gets 25,000 annual riders, despite being relatively new.

 

[afigg]

Can this service be added in with the current equipment pool of Surfliner sets? Maybe less time idling in LA?

No, service to Coachella valley would require additional rolling stock. CA spent a bundle refurbing the Comet single level cars to provide capacity while waiting for the new corridor bi-level cars to be delivered. The Comet cars might be available as interim equipment for a new Coachella Valley service while CA orders bi-level cars and locomotives to support the route. But if they have to do another study and EIS, and then follow that by building/upgrading stations and pay for the track capacity upgrades UP wants, it will be years and years before service is likely to actually start.

The difference from 3 years ago when this thread was last active is that there is a lot more state funding available for passenger rail and transit expansion with the bond money and the Cap and Trade revenue share allocated to transit. Coachella Valley service won't be near the top of the priority list, but it could get funded as higher profile projects are completed.

 

[Eric S]

The Draft Alternatives Analysis (http://rctcftp.org/files/PwgrG-MbbQM=/2.A1.RY.Draft%20Alternatives%20Analysis.pdf) was released recently for the Coachella Valley (Los Angeles-Indio) service.

Brief summary: It recommends two trains/day, with about a 3:10-3:15 running time, operating over the UP/Sunset Limited route Indio to Colton and the BNSF/Southwest Chief route Colton to Los Angeles (via Fullerton). A number of different routes were looked at between Colton and LAX, generally the routes that currently see Amtrak or Metrolink service.

 

[seat38a]

The Draft Alternatives Analysis (http://rctcftp.org/files/PwgrG-MbbQM=/2.A1.RY.Draft%20Alternatives%20Analysis.pdf) was released recently for the Coachella Valley (Los Angeles-Indio) service.

Brief summary: It recommends two trains/day, with about a 3:10-3:15 running time, operating over the UP/Sunset Limited route Indio to Colton and the BNSF/Southwest Chief route Colton to Los Angeles (via Fullerton). A number of different routes were looked at between Colton and LAX, generally the routes that currently see Amtrak or Metrolink service.

I can just see the trains during the annual Coachella jammed packed with unwashed event goers. Its going to smell pretty ripe on the train. Generally its not the train going there its going to be the train coming back. Also, via the Fullerton route, this will gives quite a bit of opportunity for people south of Fullerton to transfer via the current Surfliner service. I can see the Surfliner gaining riders from people heading to Coachella valley. I can also see some sort of Casino shuttle service picking people up and dropping them off at the station.

 

[WoodyinNYC]

The Draft Alternatives Analysis (http://rctcftp.org/files/PwgrG-MbbQM=/2.A1.RY.Draft%20Alternatives%20Analysis.pdf) was released recently for the Coachella Valley (Los Angeles-Indio) service.

... two trains/day, with about a 3:10-3:15 running time ...

... during the annual Coachella jammed packed with unwashed event goers … pretty ripe ... not going ... the train coming back.…

will give ... opportunity ... to transfer via the current Surfliner service. ...

Re-skimmed the extremely repetitive study so you guys wouldn't have to wade thru the extremely repetitive study.

[SIZE=11pt]The train could greatly help tourism. "The economic impact of the highest grossing events, the Coachella and Stagecoach [music] Festivals, exceeds $254 million annually)." Yeah, it's gross, but for that kind of money, let them stink! By attendance, the #1`and #4 events are sweat-free tennis and golf tournaments. The very funky Tour de Palm Springs Bike Event had only 10,000 or so participants, but seems the most likely to benefit if riders can load their gear on the train. (May need to add a baggage car or two for those days. LOL. Wonder how many bikes a bag car with no bags could carry? Cuz 10,000 bikers, geez.)[/SIZE]


Depart Indio at 9:50 a.m., arrive L.A. at 1 p.m. Depart Indio at 3:20 p.m., arrive L.A. at 6:30 p.m.

Depart L.A. at 10:20 a.m., arrive Indio at 1:36 p.m. Depart L.A. at 3:25 p.m., arrive Indio at 6:41 p.m.

Schedule allows a "same day roundtrip". That must mean for the equipment. And for passengers who can do their business in 2 hours or so. (Where's the nearest motel to that Palm Springs stop out in the desert? :giggle: .)

[SIZE=11pt]My favorite quote from the study, p 91:[/SIZE]

Experience with other similar corridor services in Illinois, Wisconsin, Missouri, California, and Washington has shown that more round trips increase ridership because passengers have more options for departure and arrival times; the increased convenience corresponds to increased ridership (Iowa DOT, October 2012).

Forecasts transfers to/from the San Diego Surfliners. The main benefit to the Amtrak system.

The Coast Starlight (and a Coast Daylight if it ever sees the light of day) might gain passengers to/from Riverside, Palm Springs, and Indio, and maybe a few for the Southwest Chief. The Sunset stop at Palm Springs will be a much nicer place with three roundtrips instead of one. That's all my speculation. Apparently the rule is to ignore all possible financial benefits to the national system when doing this kind of study. LOL.

The route would connect with three routes of Metrolink, making it more of a system by connecting spokes.

Corridor has an overall large population base of 17 million, and 7 million jobs.

Like Fullerton, Riverside will be a busy station. So traffic within the corridor route, and not all end-to-end. Possibly add another station or two in further study.

Route is 141 miles, at top speed of 79 mph.

At 3 hrs 15 minutes not especially competitive with driving time which ranges from roughly 2 hours to 3 hours 20 minutes, depending on traffic etc. But a train would be very competitive with air: LA-Palm Springs "…[SIZE=11pt] advance one-way fare is more than $500. "[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Strong population [/SIZE]and job [SIZE=11pt]growth [/SIZE]forecast. "[SIZE=11pt] [/SIZE]The Coachella Valley’s employment ... is projected to increase 83% by 2035" and population by 100%.

High poverty levels get extra points in these studies. "... four of the nine incorporated cities, containing over 40% of the Val[SIZE=11pt]ley’s population, have poverty rates exceeding the county, state, and federal average of 14% [/SIZE]…[SIZE=11pt]"[/SIZE]

Ridership estimated at 189,000 in 2022, rising to 272,000 by 2040. (Nice numbers that compare with some LD trains' totals.)

[SIZE=11pt]"An assumed trainset of one EMD F59PHI locomotive and six bi-level Pacific Surfliner coaches".[/SIZE]

[SIZE=11pt]Projected 2022 revenue $3.3 million, rising to $4.7 million (in 2015 dollars) by 2040, forecast [/SIZE]2022 O&M costs $15.1 million. p 164. Means $12 million shortfall. (Ouch. I must have dozed off before reaching that page. LOL.)

[SIZE=11pt]"[/SIZE]Does not preclude, by choice of alignment or technology, a possible future corridor expansion between the Coachella Valley and Phoenix." p 165 (Slept thru that one, too!)

The route "would not require additional infrastructure" except "new or upgraded connecting tracks at Colton between the UP Yuma Subdivision and the BNSF San Bernardino Subdivision". It's already almost or all 3- or 4-tracked L.A. to Colton, then double-tracked on the UP to Indio. A local transit agency holds extra unused slots from earlier investment that could be contributed to the new trains to Palm Springs and Indio. I infer that if the State of California wants these slots for this train, the local agency will ask, "How high?"

The Palm Springs stop served 3,130 hapless riders last year, barely 8 per day. A new station would be needed, but Palm Springs could probably afford it. The study's description of the station really puts the "LIMITED" into Sunset Limited:

"The Amtrak Sunset Limited operates only three times per week, stops in Palm Springs after midnight at a station location 2.5 miles from the edge of the developed part of the city, often runs well behind schedule because of delays during its long cross-country journey, and there is no connecting service to provide access to the station."

Looking at service "presumed to start" in 2022.

Lots more paper shuffling ahead, and of course, procuring the equipment after the bi-levels become available. Subsidy of about $12 million a year. (Dayum, for much less than $12 million a year we could pay for a daily Cardinal.) So Cali may have other priorities for the money; politics will determine the answer. So aside from that, LOL, Indio looks good to go.

+++++++++

Not knowing nothing, I'd put the Coast Daylight ahead of Indio, and then Redding north of Sacramento. That's because both could boost the Coast Starlight (see, "roundtrips increase ridership" quote above). But is Redding even being studied? Or merely mentioned?

 

[trainviews]

The Draft Alternatives Analysis (http://rctcftp.org/files/PwgrG-MbbQM=/2.A1.RY.Draft%20Alternatives%20Analysis.pdf) was released recently for the Coachella Valley (Los Angeles-Indio) service.

Brief summary: It recommends two trains/day, with about a 3:10-3:15 running time ...

… Also, via the Fullerton route, this will give ... opportunity for people south of Fullerton to transfer via the current Surfliner service. I can see the Surfliner gaining riders from people heading to Coachella valley. ...

Yes, they forecast transfers to Surfliners heading toward San Diego. That's the main benefit to the Amtrak system.

I'd guess that the Coast Starlight could gain passengers to/from Palm Springs and Indio, and maybe a few for the Southwest Chief. The Sunset could save a few bucks from sharing costs at Palm Springs (which it serves post-midnight), and that station will likely become a much nicer place with three roundtrips instead of one. That's my speculation. Apparently the rule is to ignore all possible financial benefits to the national system when doing this kind of study. LOL.

The route will also connect with three different routes of Metrolink, helping make it more of a system by connecting these spokes. Riverside will be a busy station too, with traffic within the route, not all end-to-end.

I read the study last night, past my bedtime, so I forget some stuff.

I'm sure that the route from Colton to L.A. will NOT require major capital investment; it's already almost or all 4-tracked. Local transit agencies hold extra unused slots from earlier investment that they could contribute to the new trains to Palm Springs and Indio. I infer that if the State of California wants these slots for this train, the local agencies will ask, "How high?"

It isn't clear in my memory if the UP could still demand compensation/investment for using its tracks Colton-Indio, or not. But I think that would have alerted me.

Looking at service "presumed to start" in 2022. Lots more paper shuffling ahead, and of course, procuring the equipment when the bi-levels before available. Modest subsidy, do I recall about $10 million a year. But it looks like a done deal.

I was honestly pretty puzzled by the lack of details on the Indio-Colton segment too. While the analysis goes to great detail on the different alternatives LAUS-Colton, I found very little on the eastern segment in my skimming through the document. Whether that means that the slots are already available or not is unclear.

Towards the end of the document is another puzzling piece of information. On page 164 it is estimated that even the most feasible of the routes is projected to cover less than 20 % of its operating and maintenence costs. That seems very low. Is even California ready to put in that large a subsidy? And has anyone got any idea why? The corridor probably share the traditional problem of many commuter lines - that it is anchored in a major population centre only on the one end and passenger loads will probably thin out towards the outer/Coachella end, but still...

 

[Palmetto]

There isn't too much about the "eastern segment" because there is only way one to operate the service on it: the UP Sunset Route. While there are many places with four or five tracks between San Bernadino and LAUS, there are only three MAIN tracks in most places. The other tracks are RUNNING tracks where trains can operate, but at much lower speeds than on the main tracks. BTW, max authorized speed there is 79 MPH, with several slower speed restrictions.

 

[blondninja]

Thanks for the detailed analysis

Yes California is ready and has the funds. There are so much cap and trade funds available and the governor is pro rail. He's the one who pushed for the former Coast Daylight.

I'd say once the bi levels are available both routes will happen, barring an economic recession and a change in leadership in Sacramento.

 

[Eric S]

If the cost recovery is in the 20ish% range, this may not be a slam dunk.

 

[seat38a]

If the cost recovery is in the 20ish% range, this may not be a slam dunk.

If we were a Red State then no, but we are a Blue State with Sacramento so firmly in Blue that the Red's don't even have to show up to work since by the numbers, they don't matter. Also, Coachella valley has been screaming for rail service for a while so politically, I don't think you will see any local opposition. So far all the studies on new transit taxes for next years election via sales tax increase all pass in hypothetical polls so the population is more and more pro rail.

One thing we in SoCal have learned over last decade is that no matter how much money we throw at the roads, the traffic does not improve. In many cases it actually gets worse. It used to be that outside of traditional "rush hour" there would be no traffic, but now its a 24/7 problem. Rail investment in California is about an alternative to the freeways not a profit driven system.

 

[Eric S]

I don't think it's so much a red state/blue state issue, but a question of priorities. This project may have significant support but does it fall behind another project because that other project is more cost effective?

I'm not arguing against the project, just wondering, that's all.

 

[Paulus]

With an average of only 78 people on the train at any point in time, it's not going to do anything for traffic. Maybe once CAHSRA builds out to Riverside we might see a rail shuttle to the Coachella Valley, but there is no way that this will ever be funded.

 

[Bruce-C]

I believe extending Metrolink from San Bernardino to Banning would be the most that desert dwellers could ever hope for. Metrolink is already thinking of extending to Redlands. A Park & Ride lot at Banning and a Sunbus connection from desert cities as far east as Indio would be workable.

 

[blondninja]

This will happen. They already have the Fullerton to Indio Amtrak bus as a test and it does well.

As much as I want the coast daylight to happen, given the tourism base, amount of seniors in the desert and the rich cities that all

Want this to happen, I think this will happen before the daylight.

Saw this a week or so ago:

http://www.latimes.com/local/california/la-me-california-commute-20151130-story.html

 

[blondninja]

The cities have made it clear they don't want metrolink. They want Amtrak. They want a more comfortable ride with Amtrak services and equipment. Cushioned seats, cafe etc.

Leisure travelers to desert cities on weekends swell traffic. Lots of second homes out there and then the large senior base who don't want to travel that far to the LA basin via car and want an alternative.

There are no other options on the horizon for this but the bus has been like a test run and has been successful. I take it all the time to see my mom

Who lives out there.

With the daylight there is the planned HSR. There is also the possibility of extending the capital corridor down to gilroy.

Ideally I'd like to see both happen but think the coachella line will be first to happen.

 

[Eric S]

I'm not sure we have figures to compare construction/capital costs for the Coachella Valley project to other CA proposals yet (service extension from San Jose to Salinas, service extension from Sacramento to Redding, Coast Starlight, etc). Maybe Coachella Valley will be low cost relative to the other projects.

But if the ridership and cost recovery projections in that study are accurate, I wouldn't be at all surprised to see other projects leap ahead of Coachella Valley. Obviously political considerations can overrule things...but perhaps adding bus trips to build ridership is in order for time being.

 

[seat38a]

I don't think it's so much a red state/blue state issue, but a question of priorities. This project may have significant support but does it fall behind another project because that other project is more cost effective?

I'm not arguing against the project, just wondering, that's all.

Haven't you heard, were not that sensible and logical out here with money. If we were CAHSR would never have gotten off the ground.

 

[justinslot]

Can we build some tracks out to Phoenix while we're at it, which isn't that far from Indio? Bridge America's 2nd and 6th biggest cities, the latter of which lacks any train service? Hello? (taps on mic)

(Yes, I know "we" can't.)

 

[WoodyinNYC]

Can we build some tracks out to Phoenix while we're at it, which isn't that far from Indio? Bridge America's 2nd and 6th biggest cities, the latter of which lacks any train service? Hello? (taps on mic)

As I quoted the study:

"Does not preclude, by choice of alignment or technology, a possible future corridor expansion between the Coachella Valley and Phoenix." p 165

Well, at least that's not a "No."

[SIZE=11pt]The first step is not to Indio. It's daily service on the Sunset Limited, which would double its total [/SIZE]ridership.

[SIZE=11pt]Don't know where they'd get the needed equipment, Not until the Mid-west bi-levels displace the Horizons, [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]which could then cascade onto a route now using Superliners, like the City of New Orleans. Unfortunately, the test-FAIL at Nippon Sharyo will delay the arrival of the bi-levels by 6 months to a year. So we're looking at 2018 to make that first step.[/SIZE]

 

[afigg]

Can we build some tracks out to Phoenix while we're at it, which isn't that far from Indio? Bridge America's 2nd and 6th biggest cities, the latter of which lacks any train service? Hello? (taps on mic)

(Yes, I know "we" can't.)

Extending service to Phoenix would require Arizona to provide funding, first for a feasibility study, than for an Alternative Analysis and SDP, then for an EIS, and finally funding for restoring the track to Phoenix and other track improvements. At a minimum, probably looking at a couple of hundred million, but that is just a wild guess. Starting a LA to Palm Springs to Phoenix daily corridor service would be a good start towards someday extending the CA HSR system to Phoenix, but this is Arizona. Could be a long wait.

 

[seat38a]

Can we build some tracks out to Phoenix while we're at it, which isn't that far from Indio? Bridge America's 2nd and 6th biggest cities, the latter of which lacks any train service? Hello? (taps on mic)

(Yes, I know "we" can't.)

You have a better chance of daily corridor service to Las Vegas before you see one to Phoenix. AZ has to cough up some cash here.

 

[neroden]

There's something funny going on with respect to Phoenix. AZ state government seems utterly hostile to passenger rail service of any sort -- they're doing the Phoenix-Tucson study, but it seems grudging -- but municipal governments are gung-ho in favor of passenger rail service, including Phoenix, Mesa, Chandler, Glendale, Tempe, Gilbert, Tempe, and of course Tucson -- eight out of the nine largest municipalities. (Scottsdale is hostile. Which doesn't surprise me.) Together, that's 48% of the state population. Is the rest of the population *that* hostile? Or is Arizona just gerrymandered... in which case the new non-partisan redistricting rules should give us a gung-ho pro-rail legislature in a couple of years?

 

[WoodyinNYC]

There's something funny going on with respect to Phoenix. AZ state government seems utterly hostile to passenger rail service ...

I was encouraged by the recent TIGER grant to fix the big problems with the Maricopa station. Moving the station, building long platforms, converting a grade level crossing to a grade separated street nearby. That stuff had to be done before a daily Sunset Limited could comfortably use the station. For example, the too-short platforms meant the train had to stop and then reposition again and again, meanwhile creating hate among the delayed morning rush hour drivers.

I'm still looking at a daily Sunset, step one. Tucson-Phoenix, step two. A second frequency Tucson-Phoenix-Indo-L.A., step three.

By then we'll be looking at working pieces of CAHSR. If HSR works there, maybe envy will motivate Arizona.