Amtrak Derailment Philadelphia (5/12/2015)

[CHamilton]

AMTRAK TO RESTORE SERVICE BETWEEN PHILADELPHIA AND NEW YORK CITY

 

[Guest]

Full service on Monday? I thought partial on Monday. Guess it was changed.

I guess life goes on and Amtrak will be functional again.

 

[NAVYBLUE]

Penny: if you're going to moderate a forum that allows guests to post at all, and pull down any lucid and well written post you find disagreeable even if it's plenty reasonable, then maybe it's time to lockout this thread in its entirety.

The NTSB and other agencies are doing their jobs behind the scenes, there is no news to post on this topic, and a lot of regular crybabies are getting upset at the idea that engineer of 188 may have actually made a HUGE mistake. Perhaps just as the NTSB is behind the scenes at this point, perhaps this thread should be too. Lock it out.

But pulling down well constructed posts willy-nilly, even if they are from educated guests, is disgraceful to the concept of a discussion site. Shame on you.

You are out of line, sir, and your lack of respect to the people who volunteer their personal time to moderate our forum is appalling.

I second that. I am well known to occasionally run afoul of the moderators but NEVER question there devotion to "try" and keep the forum civil, interesting and truthful. I may disagree with their decision to delete and/or modify my quotes, but I have found them to be very sincere in their efforts.

 

[MARC Rider]

Rock Hurling Is Old Nemesis of Train Crews

Indeed, my family was remembering the time that my grandfather, a PRR engineer, was shot while at the controls of his GG-1. We don't recall the exact date or location, but he was hospitalized for a long time, and the doctors eventually decided not to remove the bullet. He carried that reminder until he died many years later.

I don't know about all of the states, but my state highway department (Maryland) seems to have enough funds on hand to build very substantial concrete "sound barriers" bordering all of the major urban and suburban interstate highways in our state. These barriers not only protect the surrounding communities from the noise of the traffic, but also make it a lot harder for people with bad intent to enter the highway right of way and throw rocks (or worse) at cars and trucks. So why can't they find a little money to do the same for railway rights of way? (I will say that I see that they are installing some new, sturdy looking fencing along the NEC right of way between New Carrolton (actually, the Capital Beltway) and Seabrook. I wonder, though, whether that particular fencing (open iron slats maybe 6-7 feet high) would be enough to stop rock throwers.

 

[Bob Dylan]

60 Minutes is going to replay the excellent Joe Boardman interview tonight (that includes the critical needs on the NEC) for those that haven't seen it!

 

[NW cannonball]

Many of us here have had enough, PLEASE stop turning this Tragedy into a mockery with wild guesses. Let the experts finish the investigation.

I found this board (and joined) because it has one of the most reasonable conversations about the wreck of #188. Any discussion is going to include some speculation, but it's human nature to want to discuss something that's cause is apparently so easy (speed) and hard (why) to understand.
I also suggest that for many of us who ride the NEC regularly, the NTSB stating they are looking into projectiles (which remember, just days ago even the idea of projectiles was "Internet speculation), increase the wariness and hunger for information.

I am among the thousands who will ride the NEC tomorrow. If this was a deliberate attack (not an accident or random vandalism), then there is an immediacy to the relevance of this conversation and the sharing of information.

The wreck and the attacks may be related or they may not.

In either case, we have a serious issue of "projectiles" hitting trains on the NEC and that is an active and valid concern, regardless of any connection to #188. Agreed?

Agreed. Thanks for your concise and appropriate guest-post.This accident/incident/trainwreck, even without the media hype, directly and immediately concerns everyone who travels the NEC

Is it safe? How do I work around the disruption? And the long-term issues of maintenance and safety upgrades and what will it cost and who will pay.

I think the forum moderators have done a good job, keeping this forum, as always, the best place to go if you need help with using AMTRAK

 

[George K]

think the forum moderators have done a good job, keeping this forum, as always, the best place to go if you need help with using AMTRAK

 

[willem]

The white circle in the right window (as an exterior observer looks at the front of the locomotive) that I thought had been identified as a forward-looking camera seems to be missing. Perhaps it was installed later? Maybe I misunderstood earlier explanations of the white circle?

I'm not sure what circle you're talking about, but you can see the camera installed inside the fireman's side window next to the center pillar:

Camera.png

I did misunderstand. Thank you for clearing it up.

 

[Ryan]

:hi: Happy to help!

 

[FormerOBS]

To Jerry in San Diego:

I'm certainly no expert on PTC, but my understanding is that it is intended to prevent accidents. Therefore, it comes into play when a train exceeds a speed limit, passes a restrictive signal, etc. Its power is limited to stopping or slowing a train, and I don't think it is able increase a train's speed. Just imagine a case where the PTC system is defective. If it is capable of increasing the train's speed, a defective PTC system could create a catastrophe. I'm not aware of anybody who believes it is a good idea to give that capability to a PTC system.

MARC Rider:

Construction of barriers that would keep people off the tracks and deaden sound would have to be paid for somehow. There seems to be lots of Federal money available to build them for highways, but none available to do the same for the NE Corridor. That's a question that would be better directed to Congress. Congress doesn't even want to spend the minimal amounts needed for basic equipment/infrastructure maintenance, let alone build something new like a fence. for Isn't it interesting that we have a culture that keeps its highways relatively free of trash (ever since Lady Bird Johnson), but still considers the railroad a free-access dumping ground?

Amtrak Blue:

Your question may have been intended as humor, but some may take it seriously. I can't say for sure, but I suspect the removal of debris and rebuilding of the track is a fairly simple task, compared to the task of building new catenary towers and stringing the lines. Monday service probably represents very good performance on the part of the many workers who are getting that job done as we speak.

Moderators:

Unlike the rest of us, I guess you aren't perfect. That's unfortunate, but we like you anyways --- at least we do when it's not our own personal ox you're goring. Keep up the good work.

Tom

 

[JSmith]

Just In; Full Amtrak Service Restored on Monday

I can't imagine how much hard work has gone into restoring service as quickly as safely possible without compromising the investigation. Congratulations and many thanks for everyone's dedicated work. I am on the northbound Silver Meteor right now and I'm hoping this means we will be able to take a single train from Washington (where the Silver Meteor is terminating) to New York tomorrow.
The original plan for us was a Northeast Regional to Philadelphia, a SEPTA train to West Trenton, a shuttle bus to Trenton, and a NJT train to Penn Station. Not so easy while having to schlep three checked bags and two small children! Crossing my fingers that there will be a direct train to NYP for us tomorrow...

 

[Ryan]

If you're lucky, they'll just run the train all the way through. No reason to terminate in WAS if they're running everything.

A heck of a lot of work done by those guys and gals.

 

[JSmith]

If you're lucky, they'll just run the train all the way through. No reason to terminate in WAS if they're running everything.

A heck of a lot of work done by those guys and gals.

My fingers won't cross hard enough to wish for that! I'm suppose it's possible they could restock as usual at WAS and have an electric locomotive ready (I assumed that was why they are terminating in Washington rather than Philadelphia). But I will be happy enough to dodge the commuter train scramble with the checked luggage.

I guess we'll see what happens in the morning. There's still plenty of hours left tonight for them to come up with the logistics of getting the train back on its regular run, I suppose!

 

[afigg]

I don't know about all of the states, but my state highway department (Maryland) seems to have enough funds on hand to build very substantial concrete "sound barriers" bordering all of the major urban and suburban interstate highways in our state. These barriers not only protect the surrounding communities from the noise of the traffic, but also make it a lot harder for people with bad intent to enter the highway right of way and throw rocks (or worse) at cars and trucks. So why can't they find a little money to do the same for railway rights of way? (I will say that I see that they are installing some new, sturdy looking fencing along the NEC right of way between New Carrolton (actually, the Capital Beltway) and Seabrook. I wonder, though, whether that particular fencing (open iron slats maybe 6-7 feet high) would be enough to stop rock throwers.

I suspect that Amtrak is paying for the fencing being installed along the NEC ROW through New Carrolton. MDOT (MD DOT) may or may not be providing some of the funding, but in general Amtrak is responsible for installing and maintaining the fencing along the portions of the NEC that it owns or controls. In general, the reason for the more robust iron slat fencing that has been installed along some portions of the NEC has been, AFAIK, is to keep people out in places where locals often cut holes in the chain link fences to take "shortcuts" across the tracks. Teenagers throwing rocks have become, to the best of my knowledge, much less of a problem on the NEC in recent decades.
Solid sound barriers could be an effective protection against both trespassers and rock throwers at some locations, but those sound walls are not inexpensive. I think Amtrak would look at the state and local governments to pay the full cost of putting up a sound barrier wall at or outside of the ROW if the local residents wanted to reduce the noise.

With regards to the SEPTA and Amtrak trains in Philly getting hit by something, it may be some time before the NTSB puts out a detailed reliable summary of what the trains were hit by - if they can ever tell - and where.

 

[northnorthwest]

What are the chances that Mike Nutter apologizes at some point? I thought it was really inappropriate for him to decide and publicly state that the only explanation for the engineer to go twice the speed was if he'd had a heart attack and essentially put all the blame on him before any investigation has taken place. From what I've read the engineer seems meticulous and very serious about his job.

 

[FormerOBS]

I have a feeling Mr. Nutter has been made aware that he stepped in it pretty deep, and he won't be making any more off-the-cuff accusatory comments until he knows he's on pretty solid ground. And he won't be apologizing until he knows for certain that the apology is deserved. So don't hold your breath.

That's strictly an opinion; I don't have my crystal ball handy.

Tom

 

[user 1215]

A quick word about amnesia. About 10 years ago, I was living in Albuquerque. Coming home from work on Halloween on my way to get my kids ready for trick or treat, I was T-Boned by a guy who missed a stop sign that was obstructed by overgrowth. I remember calling my friend to let him know I wouldn't be making it that night. I don't remember anything else, yet I was fully conscious, just unaware. There were ambulances, police, fire trucks, and I was even able to give directions to my wife to find me. I was taken to the hospital where they took my blood, gave me CT scan and then apparently I wandered around the hospital (who told my wife I self discharged - they LOST me!). My next point of awareness was when the doctor was showing me photos of the wreck while I lay on a gurney in a hallway (I found myself and put myself back where I belonged).

I only tell this story to say that 10 years later, I still have no recollection of the accident. 4 hours of my life went missing that day, but if you had a conversation with me during that time, you wouldn't know it.

This engineer may never tender anything. May not have ever been knocked out, just some wires up there loosened. Totally plausible he could have even called 911 and never known it.

 

[NETrainfan]

So grateful for this forum- especially at a time like this. Thank you from a frequent NEC rider.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

From a Wire Service article I just read, 36 people boarded the firs train from PHL this morning; to me that seems low considering how busy the Corridor usually is. Perhaps someone more familiar with typical loads on the Corridor at different times of the day can elaborate.

Mayor Nutter was also on hand to see those pax off.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

From a Wire Service article I just read, 36 people boarded the firs train from PHL this morning; to me that seems low considering how busy the Corridor usually is. Perhaps someone more familiar with typical loads on the Corridor at different times of the day can elaborate.

Mayor Nutter was also on hand to see those pax off.

I think originally they had said that service would be restored Tuesday, so a lot of people may not have realized the trains would be running this morning.

 

[CHamilton]

I heard from one of our members that 30th Street Station is a media circus today. 43 is boarding now and Business Class is getting priority boarding.

 

[jis]

BC and Selec+ and Select-E were getting priority boarding in Washington DC for a while. Good to see them institute that in Philly. I wonder if that trend will somehow percolate to New York and get the gate dragons of Boston on board too!

 

[CHamilton]

That was fast!

DOT chief: Amtrak installs automated braking system

Transportation Secretary Anthony Foxx said Monday that Amtrak has installed an automatic train control system that investigators have said could have prevented last week's deadly crash near Philadelphia.

The system, which is known as ATC, is used to monitor the speed of trains as they approach sections of tracks that contain curves.

Foxx said during an interview with MSNBC's "Morning Joe" that Amtrak has installed the automated system on tracks along its Northeast Corridor, which is home to both last Tuesday's crash and the company's busiest routes.

"We required Amtrak to install automatic train control, as well as to do inspections on the curves all along the northeast corridor," Foxx said. "They have done that very carefully and we're confident the service should resume this morning."

The Amtrak crash has touched off a debate in Congress about whether there should be more automation of trains in the U.S. Congress had set a 2015 deadline for the installation of a separate system called Positive Train Control that would utilize some of the ATC equipment to fully automate trains, but some lawmakers have moved to push the deadline back until 2020.

Foxx said Monday that Amtrak undertook "extraordinary measures" to get trains in the Northeast running again and to get the ATC braking system installed in the corridor.

 

[guest]

I heard on he radio from CBS News that BC use was pretty light today, with the suggested reason that passengers could be reluctant to be in the car right behind the engine. IMHO, give it a few months and most people will have forgotten about it.

 

[John Bobinyec]

You're right, of course, but the location within the train didn't have much to do with the most severely damaged car. It had everything to do with it catching a broadside from a stout catenary support, I believe.

jb