Amtrak Derailment Philadelphia (5/12/2015)

[Bob Dylan]

Thanks for sharing Bill, I agree Amtrak did a bang up job except for initial communication with passengers and the media!

Making a silk purse out of a pigs ear is an old saying but still true!

 

[andersone]

The PennFab article is awesome. It demonstrates the true spirit of our country and our ability to get things done right in a crunch.

 

[neroden]

Thanks for the PennFab article.

 

[fairviewroad]

188 running on time this evening.

Given the amount of press coverage, I wonder if Amtrak should have or will change the train number? The airlines will do that after a fatal plane crash.

I was wondering that myself. I'm sure Amtrak could renumber the train without upsetting its numbering conventions too much. Who knows, maybe they'll change it when the next timetable comes out. That would make things a bit easier, logistically speaking. In the short term, I suspect that it's only a small minority of travelers who would "book away" from 188 due to the number. Railroad types care more about train numbers than the general public.

(Of course, you could make the same argument about flight numbers, with a handful of really high profile exceptions such as United 93, TWA 800, etc.)

 

[Shack]

FBI says damage to windshield was NOT from a bullet. So, much for the endless palaver about how it must be a 30.30 or 30.08 or a bazooka. If it was anything not a result of the crash it is going to be a rock. I'm sure the speculation will now turn to a conspiracy to cover up a gunshot in order to protect something or other...

As an NEC rider, I was glad to hear they ruled out a bullet, though a thrown/dropped/launched object of some sort remains in play as a possible contributing factor.

If it weren't for the other two trains hit by objects in close proximity and time, I would consider the whole "projectile" idea a conspiracy theory. Alas, the idea of deliberate vandalism (likely with unintended consequences) remains an open possibility.

 

[jis]

Putting the railroad back together for Monday's reopening was a huge undertaking. This article describes how the two new catenary and transmission support structures were ordered, detailed, fabricated and delivered in 50 hours.

PennFab

Absolutely amazing achievement by the Amtrak MOW and traction power folks, and their contractors! Hats off to them! Few people realize that Amtrak had the railroad for only 72 hours to repair and put it all back in service together with the signal code changes dictated by the FRA. The balance of the time the railroad was in NTSB's control when Amtrak could carry out very little reconstruction work.

 

[N. Leon Cassady]

To add my two cents to whether the conductor should have known where 188 was and how fast it was going:

I'd say a whole lot depends on the conductor. My extensive experience on the NEC is a lot like my experience in my extensive travels on the rest of Amtrak - which is to say that personal performance of personnel varies wildly from individual to individual. I've had some NEC conductors who in all likelihood would have had the situational awareness to know something was amiss, and some who seem to be walking zombies - with a chip on both shoulders!

 

[Big Iron]

Putting the railroad back together for Monday's reopening was a huge undertaking. This article describes how the two new catenary and transmission support structures were ordered, detailed, fabricated and delivered in 50 hours.

PennFab

Absolutely amazing achievement by the Amtrak MOW and traction power folks, and their contractors! Hats off to them! Few people realize that Amtrak had the railroad for only 72 hours to repair and put it all back in service together with the signal code changes dictated by the FRA. The balance of the time the railroad was in NTSB's control when Amtrak could carry out very little reconstruction work.

Very true. The speed at which operation was restored from carnage amazed me. One of the contractors assisting in the clean up is a RVR company called Cranemasters. They have an interesting website. http://www.cranemasters.com/

 

[Big Iron]

To add my two cents to whether the conductor should have known where 188 was and how fast it was going:

I'd say a whole lot depends on the conductor. My extensive experience on the NEC is a lot like my experience in my extensive travels on the rest of Amtrak - which is to say that personal performance of personnel varies wildly from individual to individual. I've had some NEC conductors who in all likelihood would have had the situational awareness to know something was amiss, and some who seem to be walking zombies - with a chip on both shoulders!

I was riding 65 a few weeks ago. I was in the cafe for a stretch between WAS and RVR and the Conductor was speaking with a trainee. The Conductor was working very well with the trainee and I was impressed with his desire to truly help and educate. I distinctly remember him saying "you must know where you are at all times, day or night"

 

[Acela150]

I would investigate first whether a suit is a necessary step in the compensation process before going off and starting to blame people. Maybe this is like blaming the engineer for getting a Union lawyer before meeting with the wonderful Philadelphia Police who seemed to have already decided whose fault it was.

Practically, how is a Conductor who is collecting tickets supposed to know in dark night what speed they are going at and exactly where? How many of you have actually worked as a Conductor on an Amtrak train. Or are we all just going to do some more armchair quarterbacking?

Frankly I am disappointed. Maybe CBS has a job for a few of you

Jishnu this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. A good conductor and engineer know where they are at all times.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I would investigate first whether a suit is a necessary step in the compensation process before going off and starting to blame people. Maybe this is like blaming the engineer for getting a Union lawyer before meeting with the wonderful Philadelphia Police who seemed to have already decided whose fault it was.

Practically, how is a Conductor who is collecting tickets supposed to know in dark night what speed they are going at and exactly where? How many of you have actually worked as a Conductor on an Amtrak train. Or are we all just going to do some more armchair quarterbacking?

Frankly I am disappointed. Maybe CBS has a job for a few of you

Jishnu this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. A good conductor and engineer know where they are at all times.

I've largely stayed out of this thread for obvious reasons, but here is the difference. How would you know? Didn't you just start...on a freight railroad to boot? Have you ever worked passenger service? This all sounds good, but have you ever worked on the NEC, with its high speeds, fast accelerating locomotives and (relatively) smooth tracks?

Just because you stare out of the window from the head end calling signals doesn't make you an expert. Do you have an eighty five hundred horsepower engine that can jump from 70mph to 110mph in less than a minute?

If you think you have it, meet me on the corridor. I'm going to put you in the back, but not staring at the window like a buff. I'll make sure that an engineer we call "no brakes" is running. The reason he's called that is he uses very little brake. He allows the curves, terrain and characteristics to slow his train as his (correct) motto is the less you do with the train, the better the ride and they should never feel you stop or start.

Then, I CHALLENGE you to tell if you can feel the difference between 60mph and 80mph or 80 and 100mph or if he entered a curve or slowed down for it.

 

[John Bobinyec]

How can anyone tell how fast the train is going without using a speedometer?

1. By the roughness of the ride. But that is confusing because moving at a high speed on good track might feel like moving at low speed on rough track.

2. By gut feel.

3. By the centrifigal force when going around a curve - oops - too late.

4. By timing mileposts. This is too hard to do in the dark. They can be obscured by other trains. You might just have missed one and then you'd have to catch the next two. Trouble is, you've already gone 2 miles by the time you figure out what the train's average speed is over that 2 miles.

5. Smart phone app, if it's available and allowed.

Not so easy.

jb

 

[City of Miami]

I often calculate the speed of the train I'm on with my watch (stopwatch function) and quarter mile posts - it only takes 2!



15 seconds between = 60 mph, for example.

 

[bobnjulie]

I'll chime in and say that the only conductor I know I met on another train. I saw him on his train and was doing a quick chat while he collected tickets and he was "Hold on." got his watch out and knew where we were and where we should be... at every mile.... My information may be wrong but they are supposed to know every mile and every bump and run the train while doing everything else and are tested all the time on their route. Tragedies happen and I'm waiting until all the information is out but I do know if this was a plane there would be zero survivors. As witnessed by the recent plane crash, having two pilots does not provide 100% safety - nor would having 2 engineers.

 

[Thirdrail7]

I'll chime in and say that the only conductor I know I met on another train. I saw him on his train and was doing a quick chat while he collected tickets and he was "Hold on." got his watch out and knew where we were and where we should be... at every mile.... My information may be wrong but they are supposed to know every mile and every bump and run the train while doing everything else and are tested all the time on their route. Tragedies happen and I'm waiting until all the information is out but I do know if this was a plane there would be zero survivors. As witnessed by the recent plane crash, having two pilots does not provide 100% safety - nor would having 2 engineers.

I'm not attempting to dispute whether or not the crew knew their location. What I am disputing is if they can readily tell the speed difference, particularly at night in an area where trains typically accelerate, especially while simultaneously performing other duties. I would also point out there are plenty of mileposts that aren't a true measured mile. Some "miles" may be 5000 ft, some are almost 6000 feet. That is why the timetable specifies where the measured miles are located so you may accurately test your speedometers.

Again, if you think you can, allow me to introduce you to Uncle Half Notch and guess how fast he's going. You'll look at your watch and think its broken. :blink:

 

[Cina]

Also if we're still speaking in context of the derailment, wasn't there something like 45 seconds between the time the train began accelerating to above the speed limit before the curve (which was 80ish? Or am I misremembering?) To the time it went into emergency while entering the curve? 45 seconds for the conductor to realize they were exceeding the speed limit approaching a curve and do something about it?

 

[jis]

I would investigate first whether a suit is a necessary step in the compensation process before going off and starting to blame people. Maybe this is like blaming the engineer for getting a Union lawyer before meeting with the wonderful Philadelphia Police who seemed to have already decided whose fault it was.

Practically, how is a Conductor who is collecting tickets supposed to know in dark night what speed they are going at and exactly where? How many of you have actually worked as a Conductor on an Amtrak train. Or are we all just going to do some more armchair quarterbacking?

Frankly I am disappointed. Maybe CBS has a job for a few of you

Jishnu this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. A good conductor and engineer know where they are at all times.

Sorry I have to say you are beyond your depth on this one and have no clue what you are talking about. And let us just leave it at that.

 

[Acela150]

I would investigate first whether a suit is a necessary step in the compensation process before going off and starting to blame people. Maybe this is like blaming the engineer for getting a Union lawyer before meeting with the wonderful Philadelphia Police who seemed to have already decided whose fault it was.

Practically, how is a Conductor who is collecting tickets supposed to know in dark night what speed they are going at and exactly where? How many of you have actually worked as a Conductor on an Amtrak train. Or are we all just going to do some more armchair quarterbacking?

Frankly I am disappointed. Maybe CBS has a job for a few of you

Jishnu this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. A good conductor and engineer know where they are at all times.

I've largely stayed out of this thread for obvious reasons, but here is the difference. How would you know? Didn't you just start...on a freight railroad to boot? Have you ever worked passenger service? This all sounds good, but have you ever worked on the NEC, with its high speeds, fast accelerating locomotives and (relatively) smooth tracks?

Just because you stare out of the window from the head end calling signals doesn't make you an expert. Do you have an eighty five hundred horsepower engine that can jump from 70mph to 110mph in less than a minute?

If you think you have it, meet me on the corridor. I'm going to put you in the back, but not staring at the window like a buff. I'll make sure that an engineer we call "no brakes" is running. The reason he's called that is he uses very little brake. He allows the curves, terrain and characteristics to slow his train as his (correct) motto is the less you do with the train, the better the ride and they should never feel you stop or start.

Then, I CHALLENGE you to tell if you can feel the difference between 60mph and 80mph or 80 and 100mph or if he entered a curve or slowed down for it.

Fair enough, I have been doing qualifying runs on the keystone corridor and NEC the past two weeks. I've been on AEM-7's, ACS-64's, and an Acela set. I'm well aware of the acceleration rate and how smooth the trackage can be. It's wildly different then 2 GEVO's.

I have been on many many trains that go East through Frankford Junction. Even as a passenger I've grown to know where I am and the speeds the trains go, Acela, Regional, LD, etc. At all times of day and night in all kinds of weather.

But I will maintain that a good Conductor and Engineer should know where they are at all times. I think this is something that any railroad employee can agree on. I'm just curious as to why the Conductors didn't think that something was off. I understand that ticket scanning/collection and assisting passengers is part of the job. I'm not pointing a finger. (If it seems like that I apologize)

 

[Acela150]

I would investigate first whether a suit is a necessary step in the compensation process before going off and starting to blame people. Maybe this is like blaming the engineer for getting a Union lawyer before meeting with the wonderful Philadelphia Police who seemed to have already decided whose fault it was.

Practically, how is a Conductor who is collecting tickets supposed to know in dark night what speed they are going at and exactly where? How many of you have actually worked as a Conductor on an Amtrak train. Or are we all just going to do some more armchair quarterbacking?

Frankly I am disappointed. Maybe CBS has a job for a few of you

Jishnu this is where we're going to have to agree to disagree. A good conductor and engineer know where they are at all times.

Sorry I have to say you are beyond your depth on this one and have no clue what you are talking about. And let us just leave it at that.

Fair enough.

 

[MIrailfan]

A freight conductor knows where they are atall times. passenger conductor is with the passengers.

 

[guest]

Has the individual who asks if anyone has worked as a conductor on Amtrak done so themselves to be so condensending? Or is this a case of the pot calling the kettle black?

 

[Thirdrail7]

Fair enough, I have been doing qualifying runs on the keystone corridor and NEC the past two weeks. I've been on AEM-7's, ACS-64's, and an Acela set. I'm well aware of the acceleration rate and how smooth the trackage can be. It's wildly different then 2 GEVO's.

I have been on many many trains that go East through Frankford Junction. Even as a passenger I've grown to know where I am and the speeds the trains go, Acela, Regional, LD, etc. At all times of day and night in all kinds of weather.

But I will maintain that a good Conductor and Engineer should know where they are at all times. I think this is something that any railroad employee can agree on. I'm just curious as to why the Conductors didn't think that something was off. I understand that ticket scanning/collection and assisting passengers is part of the job.

Once again, no one disputes that. What is being said is any train in that area accelerates. This includes Septa trains. Can you tell the difference between in speed? Where is the normal braking point for the curve? Are you aware that people run trains differently? How much time did that crew have together so the crew could even determine the engineer's style? Even if you think something is amiss, this happened in less time than it takes to make this post as Cirdan mentioned above. Again, just because you stared out the window of an ACS,AEM-7 or some type of equipment means zilch if you weren't performing other tasks.

Acela150, on 19 May 2015 - 11:46 PM, said:'m not pointing a finger. (If it seems like that I apologize)

Is that a fact? Your previous post tells a different story;

I read that an Amtrak conductor who was on the train is suing Amtrak.

I'll give you my two cents on this. The conductors are qualified on that territory. Why didn't any of them say "We're going to fast for this area" and pull a brake? These conductors, IMO are just as at fault as the engineer.

This definitely more than SEEMS like you're pointing a finger. You're pointing a whole hand and a foot...that is now in your mouth.

Do you even know where they found the conductor of this train? How much time did the rest of the crew have? Were they even qualified?

I kind of remember Ryan coming to your defense by saying (and I'm paraphrasing) that it is something to sit back on the internet and critique someones work ethic when they suggested that NS would wash you out because you're a foamer.

It looks like he was on to something...in more ways than one.

 

[cirdan]

1. By the roughness of the ride. But that is confusing because moving at a high speed on good track might feel like moving at low speed on rough track.

I disagree.

The roughness of poor track is totally different to the roughness caused by speed. I think somebody who is on the train every day very soon gets to know the difference.

 

[caravanman]

It is silly to expect any staff behind the engineer to be instantly aware of an increase in speed from 80 MPH, even if they are not engaged in other duties. It seems as if the speed increase and derailment happened within a minute or so?

Who here knows what the conductor was doing in that single minute... maybe in the john, maybe urgently making his way to a place where he could apply the brake? No one here knows.

Although a conductor will have knowledge of the tracks and signals, he is not expected to be looking out the window with his hand on the emergency brake every second of every minute, and walk the train, and deal with passengers, and, etc, etc...

I have been both an engine crew member and a guard here in the UK, and I know the reality of the job, not the fanciful idea that some "Superman" who can do 10 jobs all at the same time is your conductor.

Ed

 

[jis]

There is a very informative post by Out_Of_Service in the thread titled Q re NEC ATC on trainorders.com . It describes how before the latest signal changes were put in place expert engineers would proceed at full allowed speed (80 mph) all the way to Shore interlocking and then apply brakes to come down to 50/60 by the time they entered the curve. With the signal change, they will now be running at 45mph for two miles from the advanced signal to Shore, and then coast through the curve at 45 mph perhaps accelerating a bit to the speed limit. The signal aspect displayed at Shore is Clear. The signal aspect displayed at the advanced signal for Shore two miles away is Approach Medium (45mph).

For those without a subscription on trainorders, once the thread disappears from the front page you will not be able to get to it.