Amtrak Derailment Philadelphia (5/12/2015)

[MARC Rider]

I think this brief "fair use" quote from Judge Orders Prosecutors to Charge Amtrak Engineer in Crash sums up the driving force:

The Amtrak complaint involves only the death of New York executive Rachel Jacobs, 39, who left behind a husband and 2-year-old son. Her father, a Michigan lawyer, had urged Williams to press charges.

"I just feel that my daughter's death needs to be vindicated. Here is a woman who died and nobody's being punished," the father, John Jacobs, told The Associated Press this week. "Somebody should be held responsible."

It seems that this may be more than someone looking for justice. It seems like they are possibly looking for revenge.

I think part of the driving force is the personal injury lawyers are out for blood. I think they convinced at least one family to file charges. Cause you don't see 7 other families out for blood. And it doesn't help that he father is a lawyer.

How does a misdemeanor conviction benefit a personal injury lawyer?

 

[PRR 60]

I think this brief "fair use" quote from Judge Orders Prosecutors to Charge Amtrak Engineer in Crash sums up the driving force:

The Amtrak complaint involves only the death of New York executive Rachel Jacobs, 39, who left behind a husband and 2-year-old son. Her father, a Michigan lawyer, had urged Williams to press charges.

"I just feel that my daughter's death needs to be vindicated. Here is a woman who died and nobody's being punished," the father, John Jacobs, told The Associated Press this week. "Somebody should be held responsible."

It seems that this may be more than someone looking for justice. It seems like they are possibly looking for revenge.

I think part of the driving force is the personal injury lawyers are out for blood. I think they convinced at least one family to file charges. Cause you don't see 7 other families out for blood. And it doesn't help that he father is a lawyer.

How does a misdemeanor conviction benefit a personal injury lawyer?

The Pennsylvania Attorney General added a felony charge: causing a catastrophe.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

And why aren't the kids throwing rocks being held accountable? In my opinion (not that it counts) they are likely responsible and WERE performing. Criminal act.

 

[Acela150]

I think this brief "fair use" quote from Judge Orders Prosecutors to Charge Amtrak Engineer in Crash sums up the driving force:

The Amtrak complaint involves only the death of New York executive Rachel Jacobs, 39, who left behind a husband and 2-year-old son. Her father, a Michigan lawyer, had urged Williams to press charges.

"I just feel that my daughter's death needs to be vindicated. Here is a woman who died and nobody's being punished," the father, John Jacobs, told The Associated Press this week. "Somebody should be held responsible."

It seems that this may be more than someone looking for justice. It seems like they are possibly looking for revenge.

I think part of the driving force is the personal injury lawyers are out for blood. I think they convinced at least one family to file charges. Cause you don't see 7 other families out for blood. And it doesn't help that he father is a lawyer.

How does a misdemeanor conviction benefit a personal injury lawyer?

If you lived in Philadelphia those personal injury lawyers were out for blood from the beginning.

I think this brief "fair use" quote from Judge Orders Prosecutors to Charge Amtrak Engineer in Crash sums up the driving force:

The Amtrak complaint involves only the death of New York executive Rachel Jacobs, 39, who left behind a husband and 2-year-old son. Her father, a Michigan lawyer, had urged Williams to press charges.

"I just feel that my daughter's death needs to be vindicated. Here is a woman who died and nobody's being punished," the father, John Jacobs, told The Associated Press this week. "Somebody should be held responsible."

It seems that this may be more than someone looking for justice. It seems like they are possibly looking for revenge.

I think part of the driving force is the personal injury lawyers are out for blood. I think they convinced at least one family to file charges. Cause you don't see 7 other families out for blood. And it doesn't help that he father is a lawyer.

How does a misdemeanor conviction benefit a personal injury lawyer?

The Pennsylvania Attorney General added a felony charge: causing a catastrophe.

Didn't know that. But at this point IMO the whole thing is politically motivated. I also agree with ThirdRail that this seems like someone is out for revenge.

And why aren't the kids throwing rocks being held accountable? In my opinion (not that it counts) they are likely responsible and WERE performing. Criminal act.

While I agree with you. You go find the kids who threw the rocks.

 

[greatcats]

I suppose it is procedure, but I was distressed to read that Mr Bostian was put in hsndcuffs. Awful.

 

[RPC]

Sigh...so the district attorney office's official position is that a prosecution will be unsuccessful, but they're being forced to prosecute anyway. Dollars to doughnuts their original estimate is correct and this will all be a waste of time (except that the trial lawyers will get richer).

 

[PRR 60]

My couple of comments:

Do I think the NTSB conclusion that a of lack of situational awareness was the probable cause of the accident? Yes, I do. In fact, I thought so the day after the accident. I transposed the curve mileposts in that post on May 13, 2015, but that is what I thought the day after the accident, and the evidence obtained in the NTSB investigation increased my confidence that Mr. Bostian simply lost track of where he was on the railroad. The evidence suggests that Mr. Bostian came out of the right-hand curve at Second Street, thought he had just cleared the second Frankford Junction curve (also right-hand) and was entering 110mph territory. Every throttle and braking action of the train up to the accident was that of a train under full engineer control. The SEPTA incident was 4-1/2 miles west of the accident site. Nothing in the 4-1/2 miles traveled after passing the disabled SEPTA train suggested incapacitation. He accelerated to increasing track speeds, and slowed for lower track speeds. Even the acceleration to 106mph, with first full power, then reduced power as he approached what he may have thought was his 110mph target speed, was a normal, controlled acceleration to track speed - tragically the wrong track speed.

It there anything even remotely approaching a crime here? Not in my opinion. The NTSB found the lack of situational awareness to be the "probable cause" of the accident, meaning the act or acts most likely to have cause the accident as compared to other possible causes. A crime requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt - a much higher standard of proof than just "probable," and to be a crime, they also must show intent - essentially that Mr. Bostian knew he was unsure of his location and proceeded to go 106mph anyway. Exactly how is any prosecutor going to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt with the evidence in-hand? This is a political and PR prosecution. Oddly the Philadelphia District Attorney's office, with the DA presently under federal indictment for corruption, made the right call when they declined to prosecute due to a lack of evidence of a crime. It was the state Attorney General that reversed that call, and then double-downed by adding a felony charge. If there is any evidence of a crime, much less a felony, I sure can't see it.

A so-far unmentioned aspect of this criminal charge is the effect it could have on the NTSB's ability to investigate accidents. The NTSB needs those involved in accidents to be willing and candid in describing what happened. Here is a case where Mr. Bostian testified before the NTSB, and his testimony combined with the conclusions reached by the NTSB is now being used a basis for criminal charges against him - charges that are an extreme stretch at best. Were I an attorney (I'm not) and representing anyone involved in a transportation accident, I would look at what happened to Mr. Bostian and advise my client to not say one word to anyone unless granted full immunity from prosecution no matter how innocent they may appear. If the NTSB wanted my client to help them, but with the possible consequence that he or she might later be charged with a crime by some over-reaching prosecutor playing to the public and media, I'd tell them to go pound sand. I suspect the NTSB is thinking the exact same thing and is not happy about this at all.

 

[Acela150]

Interesting comments Bill.

 

[keelhauled]

It there anything even remotely approaching a crime here? Not in my opinion. The NTSB found the lack of situational awareness to be the "probable cause" of the accident, meaning the act or acts most likely to have cause the accident as compared to other possible causes. A crime requires proof beyond a reasonable doubt - a much higher standard of proof than just "probable," and to be a crime, they also must show intent - essentially that Mr. Bostian knew he was unsure of his location and proceeded to go 106mph anyway. Exactly how is any prosecutor going to prove that beyond a reasonable doubt with the evidence in-hand? This is a political and PR prosecution. Oddly the Philadelphia District Attorney's office, with the DA presently under federal indictment for corruption, made the right call when they declined to prosecute due to a lack of evidence of a crime. It was the state Attorney General that reversed that call, and then double-downed by adding a felony charge. If there is any evidence of a crime, much less a felony, I sure can't see it.

I am not a lawyer, but it sounds to me like they could bring criminal charges of manslaughter against Bostian--PA law states that "A person is guilty of involuntary

manslaughter when as a direct result of the doing of an unlawful act in a reckless or grossly negligent manner, or the doing of a lawful act in a reckless or grossly negligent manner, he causes the death of another person." I agree that a felony charge doesn't seem justified, but I also don't see any way that his actions weren't reckless or negligent, regardless of intention.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

It's not reckless or negligent to acelerate to 106 mph in what you believe is 110 mph territory.

Adding to that a very valid distraction (train stopped in emergency and lots of radio chatter) I see a very clear way his actions weren't negligent or reckless.

 

[keelhauled]

But I would argue that it is at the very least negligent to think he was in the wrong territory to begin with. And I don't think that being distracted is a good excuse--it seems like part of the job description to remain in control of the train regardless of ones environment. If I were to hit and kill a pedestrian with my car because I was distracted by a particularly interesting news report on the radio I would certainly be criminally charged. I don't see why a train engineer should be held to a lower standard.

 

[jis]

Criminal charges against Bostian dropped by the presiding Judge:

http://6abc.com/judge-dismisses-case-against-amtrak-engineer-/2406745/

And from the Washington Post:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/engineer-in-deadly-amtrak-crash-wants-criminal-case-tossed/2017/09/12/cedc14de-9772-11e7-af6a-6555caaeb8dc_story.html?utm_term=.4ae4f7f23d5d

 

[Ryan]

View attachment 7350

 

[neroden]

Based on what little I know of the law, Bostian was negligent, but not grossly negligent and not reckless. So.

 

[LookingGlassTie]

@neroden

That's my thinking also; I don't feel as if Bostian displayed reckless or depraved indifference.

 

[jis]

OTOH, the AG may be displaying depraved and reckless political considerations

 

[Acela150]

Based on what little I know of the law, Bostian was negligent, but not grossly negligent and not reckless. So.

No he didn't and wasn't... The (insert choice words here) kids that were throwing the rocks at the Septa train and Amtrak trains were the ones that were negligent and reckless.

 

[jis]

Based on what little I know of the law, Bostian was negligent, but not grossly negligent and not reckless. So.

No he didn't and wasn't... The (insert choice words here) kids that were throwing the rocks at the Septa train and Amtrak trains were the ones that were negligent and reckless.

Unfortunately purely from a legal standpoint the kids are quite irrelevant as far as this case goes. Neroden is quite accurate as far as the legal situation relevant to this case goes.

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[Acela150]

I'd have to disagree that the kids aren't responsible. The reason that the engineer was distracted was radio traffic as a Septa train got rocked. Those rocks didn't just fly on their own. Someone threw them. Which is reckless endangerment. This happens everyday on the NEC and only once has it lead to a derailment of this magnitude and it's the derailment in question. If these kids weren't out there throwing rocks, I'd venture to say the derailment would have never happened.

If Tom Kline wants to hold someone responsible hold these kids responsible not the engineer. But Tom Kline doesn't get that. Cause he doesn't know a darn thing about the everyday things like this on the NEC. Ever since 188 I have a major hate for him. He's out for blood in this case. He needs to get over it. He's not a criminal attorney, he's a personal injury attorney.

 

[SarahZ]

If kids throw rocks at cars and a driver swerves and strikes another driver because they were "distracted" by a bunch of kids hanging out near the road, that driver is at-fault for the accident.

The same logic applies here. Sure, some of the blame lies with the ***** kids who were throwing rocks, but as a driver, you are still responsible for maintaining control of your vehicle at all times.

Bostian did not have control over the train due to this distraction, but as Neroden pointed out, he was neither grossly negligent nor reckless. That's the key.

 

[jis]

I'd have to disagree that the kids aren't responsible. The reason that the engineer was distracted was radio traffic as a Septa train got rocked. Those rocks didn't just fly on their own. Someone threw them. Which is reckless endangerment. This happens everyday on the NEC and only once has it lead to a derailment of this magnitude and it's the derailment in question. If these kids weren't out there throwing rocks, I'd venture to say the derailment would have never happened.

If Tom Kline wants to hold someone responsible hold these kids responsible not the engineer. But Tom Kline doesn't get that. Cause he doesn't know a darn thing about the everyday things like this on the NEC. Ever since 188 I have a major hate for him. He's out for blood in this case. He needs to get over it. He's not a criminal attorney, he's a personal injury attorney.

That is a different case. To initiate that one has to first find the kids. In any case that does not absolve the Engineer of all his responsibilities. So I guess we will never agree on the point you are trying to make. So I guess we can save many electron flows by calling it quits. [emoji57]

Sent from my iPhone using Amtrak Forum

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

I do agree with Acela150 on this one--although the engineer is not completely blameless, I agree that he was not grossly negligent or reckless.

I have always felt that there should have been more of an attempt to find the kids who threw the rocks. Or at least find where they threw them from and send the cops out there to be "visible."

Yes, of course they wouldn't be found, but not even addressing what they did just reinforces today's message that kids can run rampant and be hooligans with no repercussions.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Actually, in the case of an automobile, someone throwing rocks is entirely different, both legally and conceptually.

Negligence is failing to operate with the fully expected due amount of care. Failing to do so makes you civily liable for your actions. The rocks presented no material danger to anybody- kids lobbing rocks at lexan are basically pissing in the wind. People throw rocks at trains- this has been going on forever. Engineers are expected to be able to handle a train that is having rocks thrown at it, or ignore reports of same over the radio. Failing to operate the train in this circumstance, ipso facto, is negligent.

The kids are guilty of a variety of offenses, but are not responsible for the fact that Bostian was negligent in performing as a reasonable train operating expert should in the event that somebody throws rocks at another train.

Gross Negligence is acting in a manner that the reasonable person can expect would lead to a problem. Bostian was distracted by a distracted event in the moment; this is negligent, but an honest era that could happen to any reasonably conscientious person. So he was not grossly negligent, and is therefore not criminally liable.

Willfulness is acting in a manner intended to cause problems. I'd Bostian were to, say, decide that instead of driving the train, he would lean back, look at the ceiling, and whack the alerter with his foot whenever it went off, that would be an example of willful negligence. Were he to do something on that order of magnitude, he'd be guilty of murder. But he sure as hell wasnt there.

 

[PVD]

Which is pretty much why the civil cases are done. Amtrak did not contest civil liability. The whole criminal thing was a red herring.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Red herring, but the victims and there family want to think that this was not just a random accident.

Random events that cause death is and always will be hard to accept.

Life ends fast, and with out time for a goodbye.