Amtrak Derailment Philadelphia (5/12/2015)

[George K]

Have you checked Amtrak's history of fatal accidents which were caused by human error

Have you checked Amtrak's history of fatal accidents which were caused by human error?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2015/05/13/what-we-know-about-amtraks-history-of-accidents-injuries-and-deaths/

Overall, Amtrak is experiencing fewer accidents per year in recent years, according to the FRA. Between 2000 and 2014, Amtrak's total accident rate per million passenger miles dropped by more than half, from 4.1 to 1.7. Numbers currently stand near previous lows in the late 80s and early 90s. Over the same period, annual Amtrak derailments decreased from 80 to 28.

Digging into the details, accidents due to track problems have fallen by two thirds since 2000, while accidents caused by human error have roughly halved over that period. But accidents due to equipment problems -- train cars and engines -- are essentially flat after a brief rise in the mid-2000s. But again, numbers in the late 80s and early 90s were slightly lower.

More than a 50% reduction in total accidents over 14 years sounds pretty good to me.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

I cannot get the quote feature to work so I am addressing jis and third rail.

jis you want evidence of perfect storm? Have you checked Amtrak's history of fatal accidents which were caused by human error?

The makings are there for more of them. Let me ask you this. If the engineer was distracted why did not the conductor apply the emergency brake? Surely he could have detected by train movement that the engineer was exceeding the speed before the curve. There is a big difference in sensation between 70 mph, the speed approaching thecurve, and 106 plus mph. Obviously the conductor was a victim of poor supervision, poor training and inexperience also as was the engineer who had only three weeks of experience on that division.

Third rail I've seen and been aware of many perfect storm situations over the years and many of them have not come to fruition thankfully. There are folks out there who should not be operating trains and that is directly due to Amtrak's hiring and inadequate training procedures.

I believe the conductor was in the bathroom, so maybe he wasn't exactly "in position" to pull the emergency break if he felt the acceleration.

 

[Ryan]

jis you want evidence of perfect storm? Have you checked Amtrak's history of fatal accidents which were caused by human error?

By all means, enlighten us.

Limit your responses to human error on the part of the train crew, not human error on the part of the idiots that put themselves in front of trains.

 

[Hal]

I cannot get the quote feature to work so I am addressing jis and third rail.

jis you want evidence of perfect storm? Have you checked Amtrak's history of fatal accidents which were caused by human error?

The makings are there for more of them. Let me ask you this. If the engineer was distracted why did not the conductor apply the emergency brake? Surely he could have detected by train movement that the engineer was exceeding the speed before the curve. There is a big difference in sensation between 70 mph, the speed approaching thecurve, and 106 plus mph. Obviously the conductor was a victim of poor supervision, poor training and inexperience also as was the engineer who had only three weeks of experience on that division.

Third rail I've seen and been aware of many perfect storm situations over the years and many of them have not come to fruition thankfully. There are folks out there who should not be operating trains and that is directly due to Amtrak's hiring and inadequate training procedures.

The conductor was not riding on the head end. He rides in the coaches. Also it was nightime. It takes years of experience on the territory to know location by the feel of the tracks. That conductor did not have years. It would not surprising if he did not detect the engineer was exceeding the speed approaching the curve. Nor do I think it would be that big a difference in sensation. But it is also possible he did know. The conductor is not sitting with an emergency brake. A conductor who realizes the engineer is increasing speed at the wrong location may not have the time to reach an emergency brake and prevent an accident.

Amtrak is responsible for a number of reasons but not their hiring and training. It takes more than training and skills to prevent accidents. It takes experience. None are born with experience. Even with training and experience, adequate or not, there will always be human error. No humans are going to be perfect. In my opinion there should be two crew in the cab. There should have been Positive Train Control. Even without Positive Train Control in place there was already existing technology that could have slowed and stopped the train. It was a fail that it was not installed approaching that curve in the eastbound direction as it was going westbound.

 

[Mokita]

Enlighten yourself. Check Amtrak's history of employee error fatalities.

 

[jis]

Why don't you provide us specific facts and statistics instead of innuendos if you really wish to be taken seriously that is.

 

[Ryan]

Enlighten yourself. Check Amtrak's history of employee error fatalities.

jis you want evidence of perfect storm? Have you checked Amtrak's history of fatal accidents which were caused by human error?

By all means, enlighten us.

Limit your responses to human error on the part of the train crew, not human error on the part of the idiots that put themselves in front of trains.

I'm still waiting....

 

[George K]

Enlighten yourself. Check Amtrak's history of employee error fatalities.

See post #876.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I'm still baffeled by the cause myself, indications would point to driver error but knowing the driver's history as an avid rail safety activist along with his military precision in operating his trains.... Honestly from his background I seriously hope he is cleared of wrong doing.... I would honestly want him driving my train from what I've read....

You hope he is cleared? I hope we get the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth. All this hand wringing over the conductor's future career is of no consequence to me. If the engineer wanted me on his side he should have put his passengers first and spoken to investigators immediately after the accident and throughout his recovery.

More than a 50% reduction in total accidents over 14 years sounds pretty good to me.

Maybe the question we should asking is how Amtrak's safety record holds up to other industrialized countries over the same time period?

 

[jis]

More than a 50% reduction in total accidents over 14 years sounds pretty good to me.

Maybe the question we should asking is how Amtrak's safety record holds up to other industrialized countries over the same time period?

I agree that this would be a good comparison metric. though Amtrak metrics should be considered in two separate pieces, one where Amtrak owns the infrastructure and the other where it operates on host railroad's infrastructure. Th relative smallness of the size of Amtrak operations will also tend to have some confounding effects possibly, though I am not exactly sure whether that would be to the advantage or disadvantage of Amtrak.

The fact that US generally has less capable signaling systems all around where passenger trains operate than any self respecting industrialized country has, would also have some significant effect.

 

[jebr]

There has been quite a few personal attacks in this thread lately from multiple people. This thread is being locked, at least temporarily, pending moderator/admin discussion.

 

[PRR 60]

This topic will remain locked until such time as new information is released by the NTSB or some other authoritative source. In the course of the 927 posts, I think we've all had our say, and now it's time to await the findings of the experts.

 

[PRR 60]

The attached article from Philly.com (Philadelphia Inquirer) was forwarded by jis. It concerns the present $200 million liability cap for rail accident claims and how it will impact claims against Amtrak:

Philly.com, 8/5/2015:

A plan to help the victims of the Amtrak Train 188 derailment will be stuck in limbo for weeks - maybe months - as Congress heads to its summer break, leaving open the question of how much money could be available for those who suffered devastating injuries and the families of passengers who were killed. At issue is a 1997 law that caps the liability in rail accidents at $200 million, an amount that experts say likely will not be enough to cover the damages for the eight people killed and more than 200 injured in the Philadelphia accident.

 

[cirdan]

The fact that US generally has less capable signaling systems all around where passenger trains operate than any self respecting industrialized country has, would also have some significant effect.

I would assume that incidents on level crossings cause far more train-related accidents and deaths in the US than signal issues do.

So I don't think signalling is the Achilles heel of either Amtrak or US railroads as a whole.

However, the relative responses to both types of accident don't really reflect that.

 

[CHamilton]

Feds: Former Philly school cop lied to get into Amtrak crash scene

 

[acelafan]

Jan 26, 2016

New York Times Magazine - The Wreck of Amtrak 188

 

[HenryK]

"Lost situational awareness." That could have happened to any of us doing anything in our lives.

I think it's a very good article, although the armchair experts will have at it.

 

[greatcats]

I too think it was a good article. The writer seemed to indicate grade crossings. If I am not mistaken, I believe those were all eliminated on the Northeast Corridor.

 

[dlagrua]

Failure of equipment, engineer error, engineer distracted by a rock hitting the windshield are some of the theories that have been discussed. I believe that people will be surprised when the true facts of this tragic accident are released. My opinion is that the engineer was not at fault. Come this spring we should have the NTSB report and the guessing will be over . Let not forget that the train carried a "black box".NTSB already knows exactly what happened.

 

[Fan Railer]

The writer was simply using grade crossings as an example of where RR accidents typically occur, then comparing it to the atypical setting of the 188 accident.

 

[jis]

Failure of equipment, engineer error, engineer distracted by a rock hitting the windshield are some of the theories that have been discussed. I believe that people will be surprised when the true facts of this tragic accident are released. My opinion is that the engineer was not at fault. Come this spring we should have the NTSB report and the guessing will be over . Let not forget that the train carried a "black box".NTSB already knows exactly what happened.

Last I looked there was no "black box" in existence that recorded the state of a human mind.

 

[afigg]

I too think it was a good article. The writer seemed to indicate grade crossings. If I am not mistaken, I believe those were all eliminated on the Northeast Corridor.

There are 11 grade crossings remaining on the NEC, all in eastern Connecticut on the curvy Shore Line east segment. None on the southern half of the NEC, so that is not an issue for the NYP-WAS round trip the engineer was making. However, that does not preclude privately own cars from getting onto the tracks as there have been 2 fatal collisions in the past 2 years on grade separated high speed segments. One was with an SUV in MA (3 killed) and one last April in RI. Somehow the vehicles got out onto the tracks, never did see much follow-up in the news on the collisions or how they got out onto the tracks as no one on board the trains were seriously hurt. The one in RI put a nearly new ACS-64 out of service.
The NYT articles mentions a new wrought-metal fence going up at the junction where the derailment occurred. I have noticed these sturdy black metal fences going up at various places on the NEC. Amtrak has been taking steps to try to keep trespassers off of the tracks, but with a 457 mile long corridor, it is a major challenge.

 

[Railroad Bill]

One of the better articles on this issue I have read. The author did a nice job of providing background and context to the event without trying to outguess the NTSB report. After next week, we shall all have a better understanding of the facts involved, as they are known, and eventually, the NTSB will provide their interpretation and causation for the accident. Many lives were changed on that fateful day

 

[City of Miami]

I didn't read anything I hadn't read before + a lot of human interest stuff. No new information though - which is not at all surprising since the official report hasn't come out. Why does the NYT print this at this time rather than waiting for some real news?

 

[Rover]

I didn't read anything I hadn't read before + a lot of human interest stuff. No new information though - which is not at all surprising since the official report hasn't come out. Why does the NYT print this at this time rather than waiting for some real news?

Yes, Why Today???