Amtrak dining and cafe service

[BlackDiamond]

Coffee in the sleeper on the CZ, SWC and both directions on the LSL last 2 weeks.

Both my wife and I thought the traditional dining on the CZ and SWC was great. On the SWC I had the steak and it was excellent, done just as ordered. She had the pasta dish whatever it is called and enjoyed it. Returning on the CZ we both had the salmon and we were impressed that it was cooked properly and not overdone and dry like many restaurants do. Also the desserts (we tried all 3) were great. She thought the chocolate torte was as good as anything she has had in a restaurant.

The flex dining was unfortunately another matter. On the way out we both had the enchilada, just OK. On the way home on the LSL we just had breakfast, I had the continental which was fine. We didn't have lunch or dinner as we were planning to go out with our kids when we got off.

 

[river]

We enjoyed dining on the SWC as well! I got the steak 3 times (out of 4 dinners) and had all three desserts (flourless chocolate cake, strawberry cheesecake, and carrot cake) several times as well. My companion enjoyed the salmon and the pasta dish. We liked the lobster-crab cake appetizer and the complimentary wines as well. And that was just dinner! Very good! By the end of our trip we were stuffed and started needing to share desserts!
We enjoyed the burger, chili (a bit spicy), and artisan grilled cheese for lunch (with the same desserts) and the egg entrees and continental breakfast for breakfast. By the end we actually ordered off the kids menu as we couldn't eat another big meal! Mac and Cheese and the hot dog were good.
Traditional dining was a wonderful experience on our trip!

 

[Tlcooper44]

Coffee in the sleeper on the CZ, SWC and both directions on the LSL last 2 weeks.

Both my wife and I thought the traditional dining on the CZ and SWC was great. On the SWC I had the steak and it was excellent, done just as ordered. She had the pasta dish whatever it is called and enjoyed it. Returning on the CZ we both had the salmon and we were impressed that it was cooked properly and not overdone and dry like many restaurants do. Also the desserts (we tried all 3) were great. She thought the chocolate torte was as good as anything she has had in a restaurant.

The flex dining was unfortunately another matter. On the way out we both had the enchilada, just OK. On the way home on the LSL we just had breakfast, I had the continental which was fine. We didn't have lunch or dinner as we were planning to go out with our kids when we got off.

When I go cross country in a couple weeks, I plan to take food with me on the LSL portion of the trip. This way, flex doesn't even need to be a thing.

 

[user 14106]

I’m still giving Flynn the benefit of the doubt. The traditional dining being returned out west is excellent and superior to pre pandemic - you have to give the management some credit where credit is due - they did a good job with that restoration. There definitely appears to be a legitimate labor shortage that is driving some remaining issues. The new Acela first meals are also delicious and I think higher quality than pre pandemic - if they use this same vendor to revamp eastern LD dining as they’ve hinted I think we could end up with an acceptable product for the meals even if it isn’t full traditional dining. It does sound like they’ve heard the message on flexible dining. There’s much room for improvement. I think the positive things that have been done warrant a wait and see before judging what comes in the east.

 

[cassie225]

Well all I can say is I’m
all boostered up and ready to go when traditional comes back lol

 

[Anthony V]

I’m still giving Flynn the benefit of the doubt. The traditional dining being returned out west is excellent and superior to pre pandemic - you have to give the management some credit where credit is due - they did a good job with that restoration. There definitely appears to be a legitimate labor shortage that is driving some remaining issues. The new Acela first meals are also delicious and I think higher quality than pre pandemic - if they use this same vendor to revamp eastern LD dining as they’ve hinted I think we could end up with an acceptable product for the meals even if it isn’t full traditional dining. It does sound like they’ve heard the message on flexible dining. There’s much room for improvement. I think the positive things that have been done warrant a wait and see before judging what comes in the east.

Another thing that sets Flynn apart from Anderson is that Flynn has repeatedly reiterated his support for the existing LD trains. Anderson was so brash about them and planned to discontinue 5-10 of them and turn the remaining ones into land cruises. That would've been disaster for not only the ones that would've been cut as part of Anderson's plan, but also for the ones that survive, as turning them into land cruises would make them even easier targets for conservatives in Congress, because they would've no longer served as transportation essentials for rural communities, but as luxury excursion services for older and wealthier people. However, don't expect any LD expansion under Flynn. He emphasized the word "EXISTING" when stating his support for the long distance trains.

 

[Willbridge]

Has guidelines or decisions been made at the Fall 2021 RPA/Amtrak meeting in Virginia?

Over the summer Amtrak management was considering traditional dining to Coach if available because of sleeper lack of demand.

I have been telling potential Coach riders what great food Amtrak had for Coach western trains and the LSL. There has to be a more positive change in dining for me to continue talking about .it. I’m sure this goes true for hundreds of regular riders

One of the interesting experiences that I had on my DEN<>PDX <> SSD coach and business class trip this summer was that as almost all parts of the train service were canceled for a variety of reasons I had to switch to bus travel. The food picked up at truck stops was similar to what Amtrak offers coach passengers but the much greater variety let me enjoy healthier items.

 

[MARC Rider]

However, don't expect any LD expansion under Flynn. He emphasized the word "EXISTING" when stating his support for the long distance trains.

Well, he was just being realistic. I don't expect any expansion of long-distance routes unless states and local governments are willing to actually contribute cold, hard cash for the purpose. And looking at the big picture, although long distance trains do serve a real purpose, the higher priority for passenger rail in general is expanding corridor routes. Of course, once you start increasing the number of corridors so that they link together, adding a new long-distance train becomes a lot cheaper and more practical.

 

[Willbridge]

Well, he was just being realistic. I don't expect any expansion of long-distance routes unless states and local governments are willing to actually contribute cold, hard cash for the purpose. And looking at the big picture, although long distance trains do serve a real purpose, the higher priority for passenger rail in general is expanding corridor routes. Of course, once you start increasing the number of corridors so that they link together, adding a new long-distance train becomes a lot cheaper and more practical.

History is the other way around. Many of the regional trains were a lot cheaper and more practical because a long-distance train was already serving lines, stations, crew bases, and terminal facilities. The trouble with the big picture is that people working only with 8½ x 11 maps of the U.S. and Canada miss opportunities and incur needless losses.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

History is the other way around. Many of the regional trains were a lot cheaper and more practical because a long-distance train was already serving lines, stations, crew bases, and terminal facilities. The trouble with the big picture is that people working only with 8½ x 11 maps of the U.S. and Canada miss opportunities and incur needless losses.

I think I get what you're saying here, but I wonder if you could expand on it or link to something for further elucidation.

 

[jis]

In India when they choose to compute the P&L of a train, they usually use some slot cost for the use of the route. This includes basic cost of stations used etc. Of course higher speed trains are charged higher slot prices.

I guess the the infrastructure part of the company computes how to allocate stations costs to slot costs somehow. It is obscure and the train operator side does not see that detail. They just use the slot cost for their accounting and if they require some extra-ordinary service at a station (handling through and sectional carriages - adding and removing etc. becoming more and more uncommon) that is added on separately. F&B is a completely separate thing which may be provided either by a subsidiary IRCTC or a private contractor, or be exclusively left to the E-Catering thing where a passenger registers with an E-catering outfit and places orders for food via a smartphone, and receives food at an appropriate station stop. The train operator actually gets a small cut for bringing the business to them, the market is so enormous.

So you can almost immediately see how the business decisions in general might favor more service rather than less, which is really the whole point of running such services.

 

[me_little_me]

Well, he was just being realistic. I don't expect any expansion of long-distance routes unless states and local governments are willing to actually contribute cold, hard cash for the purpose. And looking at the big picture, although long distance trains do serve a real purpose, the higher priority for passenger rail in general is expanding corridor routes. Of course, once you start increasing the number of corridors so that they link together, adding a new long-distance train becomes a lot cheaper and more practical.

Long distance routes should not be an expense for states and locals as they should exceed the 700 mile limit. It's the shorter ones that are supposed to have the local shell out some cash.

 

[jis]

Long distance routes should not be an expense for states and locals as they should exceed the 700 mile limit. It's the shorter ones that are supposed to have the local shell out some cash.

The problem with Amtrak management has been that they have somehow invented a totally unintended mandate to not start any new LD service without explicit permission from the Congress. And since Congress itself does not believe they really said that, now we are all stuck between a rock of idiocy of Amtrak management and a hard place. I guess Congress will have to charge up another 2x4 to apply to the posterior of Amtrak management. They are like an Ass who is being asked to move.

 

[joelkfla]

What does this all this have to do with "Dining"?

 

[jis]

What does this all this have to do with "Dining"?

Lack of LD trains with Diners makes the Dining problem disappear? No new trains keeps from exacerbating the problem

 

[Willbridge]

I think I get what you're saying here, but I wonder if you could expand on it or link to something for further elucidation.

There are a couple of points to consider. I won't go into too much detail because of thread drift and previous threads.

+ The historical experience since the beginning of Amtrak has been that added regional services have shared with the national network. I can't recall an example of one that didn't.

+ The part that might be arguable was my reference to 8½ x 11 maps that grew out of my experience in Canada where sweeping decisions in Ottawa created all sorts of unforeseen problems west of the Great Lakes. Amtrak is inclined to behave the same way as the dining saga illustrates but there are more checks and balances on it.

What I was advocating is more precise revenue and cost forecasts that can be applied to specific routes. A regional train between Cleveland, Columbus and Cincinnati would serve a big market but it would require some expensive new facilities from Day One, regardless of the schedule. A regional train between Seattle and Eugene doesn't serve as big a market but less in the way of new facilities would be required. This leads to the biggest chicken or egg discussion: the economics of tri-weekly service. It also leads to questions as to whether adding trains to existing routes might in some cases make more sense than adding new routes.

These are similar issues to what I experienced with transit systems. It was not uncommon for service changes to be costed with capital and operating costs rolled into hourly rates together. That went back to streetcar days. In a slowly changing system that's a long-term problem that may never be noticed and understood. When there are boom or bust changes the consequences are bad over runs or under runs versus the budget. In both Edmonton and Denver we got the forecasting under control with more precise costing.

 

[NYP2NFL01]

Hit or miss coffee service seems to be the norm on short-staffed trains. My recent Silver Service round trip to Florida had no sleeper car coffee. The Star had one SCA to service two sleepers and the Meteor had two SCAs to service 3 sleepers.

 

[NYP2NFL01]

On the Crescent yesterday going from CLT to PHL, wife and I managed to survive another round of flex meals.

You can always request a burger or something from the cafe car. Most SCAs will gladly do it though some will seek permission from their supervisor first. That was true in my case!

 

[JWM]

New member and an ancient one at 71 who was able to ride a number of great trains as a kid and teenager. I once remember a trip on the Super Chief when the dining car steward told me about feeding 350 pax out of a 36 seat dining car at the holidays. In any event, here is my take on the present dining situation. The western trains have seen great improvement and decent china will help as well. It would be nice if the different trains had different menus, but the current standard one seems well executed. The next step, in my opinion, is to restore full dining car service to the LSL, CL, Crescent, Silver Star and Meteor, Cardinal, CNO and TE. Also, once we get better control over Covid-19, open up the dining car for coach passengers as well. I do remember from history that very, very few railroads ever covered costs on dining. They were loss leaders to attract passengers which the Santa Fe did up until the end. Thanks and hope I haven't rambled.

 

[JWM]

Another thing that sets Flynn apart from Anderson is that Flynn has repeatedly reiterated his support for the existing LD trains. Anderson was so brash about them and planned to discontinue 5-10 of them and turn the remaining ones into land cruises. That would've been disaster for not only the ones that would've been cut as part of Anderson's plan, but also for the ones that survive, as turning them into land cruises would make them even easier targets for conservatives in Congress, because they would've no longer served as transportation essentials for rural communities, but as luxury excursion services for older and wealthier people. However, don't expect any LD expansion under Flynn. He emphasized the word "EXISTING" when stating his support for the long distance trains.

Anderson was an "airline man" and glad he is gone. Rail is so different and should be..

 

[20th Century Rider]

Upcoming travel on the Cardinal, Crescent, and CONO... has me thinking... I did order the kosher meals which are a step above flex... but am thinking a good loaf of bread, some cheese or peanut butter may be a great idea. Rumors have it that the flex stuff will be replaced in the spring with actually edible food... we'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Sidney]

Upcoming travel on the Cardinal, Crescent, and CONO... has me thinking... I did order the kosher meals which are a step above flex... but am thinking a good loaf of bread, some cheese or peanut butter may be a great idea. Rumors have it that the flex stuff will be replaced in the spring with actually edible food... we'll just have to wait and see.

We have to wait that long?

 

[20th Century Rider]

New member and an ancient one at 71 who was able to ride a number of great trains as a kid and teenager. I once remember a trip on the Super Chief when the dining car steward told me about feeding 350 pax out of a 36 seat dining car at the holidays. In any event, here is my take on the present dining situation. The western trains have seen great improvement and decent china will help as well. It would be nice if the different trains had different menus, but the current standard one seems well executed. The next step, in my opinion, is to restore full dining car service to the LSL, CL, Crescent, Silver Star and Meteor, Cardinal, CNO and TE. Also, once we get better control over Covid-19, open up the dining car for coach passengers as well. I do remember from history that very, very few railroads ever covered costs on dining. They were loss leaders to attract passengers which the Santa Fe did up until the end. Thanks and hope I haven't rambled.

Amen!

 

[20th Century Rider]

We have to wait that long?

We're all impatient... and pardon the pun... 'fed up with flex!' Real food can't come soon enough!

 

[JWM]

We're all impatient... and pardon the pun... 'fed up with flex!' Real food can't come soon enough!

"Flexible Dining" sounds like an oxymoron. Dining is not flexible. It is sitting at a table covered with a cloth, a cloth napkin, real china, ditto
flatware, a flower or two etc. "Eating" is what you do when it is plopped on your lap or on a tray, in a plastic container that was "nuked" and brought to you. Amtrak, please copy in the East, Midwest and South.