Amtrak goes straight to STB to restore Gulf Coast service.

[zephyr17]

Sure it can be done. It can be changed like any law. Whether there is political will to do it is an entirely different matter. It also opens up a Pandora's Box on why Florida got its line added to the National Network and full Federal support where other states have to pony up for their services. Although by all rights it should be since it hosted a long distance train.

 

[danasgoodstuff]

Is it possible to amend 49 U.S. Code § 24102 (7) (the law that requires ANY new route, regardless of length, to be state-funded) to include a new Gulf Coast train to Florida in the federally-funded national network? If that can be done, it will make it much easier to get around the lack of funding from Florida problem.

Of course it's possible to amend or repeal any law, but I don't think it's necessary here since you'd just be restoring service to an established but suspended route.

 

[drdumont]

AMTRAK has been calling the NOL-JAX service loss an "Interruption", so they
could avoid all the tsouris of getting govt. approval to abandon the route. It
is intuitively obvious to a second grader that this is a sham and AMTRAK should be
held accountable for this dishonesty. First it was "waiting for track repairs after the storm".
Then it was the old chestnut "freight congestion". Then it was "those nasty host railroads
won't give us the clearance". Now it's this funding BS, and I believe the Alabama governor
is chiming in with obstruction.
Anthony Z's great comment "It also opens up a Pandora's Box on why Florida got its line added to the National Network and full Federal support where other states have to pony up for their services. Although by all rights it should be since it hosted a long distance train." is on point.

Playing the game with multiple sets of rules is not good. But then, I am reminded of the
line in Bitch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid: "RULES? IN A KNIFE FIGHT?".

I really really miss the connection from NOL to JAX. But a bus bridge? Should not even
be on the table. There is no way that a bus trip of that length should be included in planning
for AMTRAK. There is no comparison. Riding a bus is camping out.

If I want to camp out, I'll buy a tent.

 

[jis]

I thought it was Alabama Governor who was holding things up.

Alabama Governor is pushing back on the NOL - Mobile service.

Currently there is neither funding nor political will for filling the Mobile to Orlando gap. Jacksonville is not the eastern terminus for any of the current train proposals since there simply is not enough traffic to justify it at all. Adding Orlando improves the situation a little.

I really really miss the connection from NOL to JAX. But a bus bridge? Should
not even be on the table.

I would also like the Miami - Key West connection restored. It would be really neat.

More seriously, within Florida, restoring service via Ocala from JAX to Tampa would be far more productive than fiddling around with Mobile to Jacksonville. Even the proposed West Coast route from Tampa to Fort Meyers would have an order of magnitude or two more ridership than the Mobile - JAX segment. In addition to political skullduggery there are some legitimate reasons for Florida to prefer to fund several other routes before bothering with Mobile to JAX. Of course the current politics in the state leans towards funding nothing, including trying to control COVID. Go figure!

 

[hlcteacher]

i would be ok with a bus bridge

 

[neroden]

Chicago to Florida?

Huh! That doesn't make sense. The Crescent goes from NYP to NOL and is next to useless for getting to Florida. CHI-->NOL on the CONO, then overnight, then Crescent to Greensboro, then Piedmont/Carolinian to Raleigh/Cary then Silver to Florida? Is that what you are suggesting?

Am I missing something?

I was thinking, and talking, about the problem of going from New Orleans to Florida, not Chicago to Florida. Sorry about my total lack of clarity.

 

[MisterUptempo]

STB denies Class Is' motion to dismiss Amtrak Gulf Coast case - Progressive Railroading

The Surface Transportation Board (STB) has denied a motion from CSX and Norfolk Southern Railway to dismiss Amtrak’s request for the board to require the two Class Is to allow Amtrak to relaunch a Gulf Coast passenger-rail service.

In a ruling dated Aug. 5, the STB said its decision denies the Class Is’ motion to dismiss, denies as moot a request for an interim order regarding track access by Amtrak, establishes a procedural schedule and appoints an administrative law judge to resolve disputes in the matter.

------------------snip--------------------

In response to the STB decision, Amtrak officials today issued the following statement:

"Amtrak thanks the Surface Transportation Board for its decision to dismiss CSX and NS' attempt to block Gulf Coast passenger-rail service. This upholds Amtrak's right to petition the Board for rail access and sets a schedule for a transparent process that will produce an outcome by the end of this year.

"In the meantime, Amtrak is working with the Southern Rail Commission to take steps to begin to operate Gulf Coast service as soon as possible next year."

Meanwhile, a CSX spokeswoman said the following in an email: "CSX is evaluating the decision, but will plan to move forward with the schedule established by the STB."

The board’s decision can be read here.

 

[drdumont]

Glowry Be!!!

Looks like only NOL-Mobile. Is this just a baby step for NOL - JAX?

Now it is time to voice our opinions of support to our fearless elected leaders.

 

[jis]

Glowry Be!!!

Looks like only NOL-Mobile. Is this just a baby step for NOL - JAX?

Now it is time to voice our opinions of support to our fearless elected leaders.

No. It is just to Mobile. Mobile - Jacksonville between Pensacola and close to Jacksonville does not involve any Class I railroad any more.

 

[George Harris]

New Orleans - Mobile makes sense as a several times a day service to the various gulf coast points between these two. A train or two doing that was tried quite a few years ago. If Amtrak or the states would come up with some cash for grade crossing improvements and a few more sidings it would probably increase CSX's enthusiasm significantly. Don't even know how much NS is involved in this, probably just a short distance in approach to NOUPT.

At one time in the past a relocation of the CSX track along the Mississippi coast something like between Bay St. Louis and Pascagoula was studied. A forbear making any comments on my thoughts on the report. Suspect someone who had a company doing studies for government agencies was given a political payback. Given the realities of the geography, I would think a realistic relocation would be about 25 feet or so straight up, double track and then you have a good interurban line with CSX throwing their freights between trains.

 

[George Harris]

No. It is just to Mobile. Mobile - Jacksonville between Pensacola and close to Jacksonville does not involve any Class I railroad any more.

After the SCL-L&N merger, quite a bit of money was spent on upgrades on Flomaton to Pensacola to Tallahassee as making a shorter and more level route than that previously used for through traffic. Obviously sometime later someone in management changed their minds and then decided they did not need the line at all, so Pensacola is now effectively an end of branch out of Flomaton AL with a short line connection to the east.

 

[drdumont]

No. It is just to Mobile. Mobile - Jacksonville between Pensacola and close to Jacksonville does not involve any Class I railroad any more.

Could you please explain the last sentence "Mobile - Jacksonville between Pensacola and close to Jacksonville does not involve any Class I railroad any more" ?
Thanks!

 

[west point]

About the upgrades. CSX replaced a drawbridge just east of Pensacola with a flyover bridge. For Amtrak service there was a semi controlled siding with signals. The location was supposed to allow for opposite direction Sunsets to pass each other. Location lost in time. Bet it never happened due to a late train.

 

[MikefromCrete]

Could you please explain the last sentence "Mobile - Jacksonville between Pensacola and close to Jacksonville does not involve any Class I railroad any more" ?
Thanks!

I believe CSX sold the line to a short line operator.

 

[jis]

Could you please explain the last sentence "Mobile - Jacksonville between Pensacola and close to Jacksonville does not involve any Class I railroad any more" ?
Thanks!

That segment is not owned by CSX anymore. They sold it to a short line.

 

[drdumont]

That segment is not owned by CSX anymore. They sold it to a short line.

Sounds like a ruse to derail AMTRAK from restoring The Sunset.

 

[jis]

Sounds like a ruse to derail AMTRAK from restoring The Sunset.

I doubt it. There simply is not enough traffic on that segment to make it worthwhile for CSX to keep it, so they sold it. Besides, just because it is owned by a short line does not make it ineligible for use for an Amtrak train. It is of course another matter that neither Amtrak's ConnectUS plan nor the more elaborate 35 year plan put forth by the FRA contains that segment. Nor did the PRIIA 2008 Section 210 PIP for the Sunset Limited and Texas Eagle mention the Eastern extension of the Sunset except in passing in historical notes regarding suspension of service after Katrina. So unless a state - namely Florida, pushes for it, it is unlikely to happen. And so far Florida has just been sitting on the sideline at the Southern Rail Commission. They have not even paid their full membership dues, let alone commit to anything more.

 

[DonNewcomb]

Don't even know how much NS is involved in this, probably just a short distance in approach to NOUPT.

I think you're right. Just a few miles of NS connect between Union Station in New Orleans and the CSX line out of town.

Sounds like a ruse to derail AMTRAK from restoring The Sunset.

The Sunset (NOL-FLA) was a train that really didn't work for anyone. IMHO, the current plan is better.

 

[DSS&A]

NY Times article about battle to restore serive and STB decision to not dismiss the case:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.ny...us/politics/amtrak-expansion-freight.amp.html

 

[Anthony V]

According to the SRC, two daily RT's between NOL and Mobile are phase 1 of the project to restore Gulf Coast service. Phase two will be to extend one of those RT's to Florida. That being said, phase 2 is still a ways off, but from a host railroad negotiations standpoint, with most of the route in Florida now being owned by a short line, it should be far easier to restore the route to Florida than it would be if CSX still owned the Panhandle line, as short lines are usually far easier for Amtrak to negotiate with than the big Class 1s. Today, the biggest obstacle to restoring Gulf Coast service to Florida is political will.

 

[jis]

Today, the biggest obstacle to restoring Gulf Coast service to Florida is political will.

And lack of sufficient projected ridership. It has to be run as a political project with costs covered for an extended period of time at a level that Florida DOT has baulked at picking up in the past. That is what killed the first iteration of Silver Palm. Things, if anything, are worse in the Florida DOT at present. This implies that the federal government or someone else has to underwrite the operation as a charity project. That is the big problem it faces.

Purely from a Florida perspective, even if Florida DOT had the money and decided to spend it on passenger rail, it would be much better spent in re-establishing passenger rail service on the JAX - Tampa via Ocala route and on a new west coast route between Tampa and Fort Meyers, than chasing after the Pensacola - JAX route purely in terms of the number of people that will be served.

 

[joelkfla]

And so far Florida has just been sitting on the sideline at the Southern Rail Commission. They have not even paid their full membership dues, let alone commit to anything more.

FL is not listed as a member on the SRC website.

According to the SRC, two daily RT's between NOL and Mobile are phase 1 of the project to restore Gulf Coast service. Phase two will be to extend one of those RT's to Florida.

Source?

 

[west point]

Has the Pensacola - JAX retained its MAX speed limits or have they been reduced ? What are the crew district lengths or have they changed to allow for out and backs every day ? If speeds have been reduced then forget ever getting Sunset or equivalent! back !~

 

[Anthony V]

And lack of sufficient projected ridership. It has to be run as a political project with costs covered for an extended period of time at a level that Florida DOT has baulked at picking up in the past. That is what killed the first iteration of Silver Palm. Things, if anything, are worse in the Florida DOT at present. This implies that the federal government or someone else has to underwrite the operation as a charity project. That is the big problem it faces.

Purely from a Florida perspective, even if Florida DOT had the money and decided to spend it on passenger rail, it would be much better spent in re-establishing passenger rail service on the JAX - Tampa via Ocala route and on a new west coast route between Tampa and Fort Meyers, than chasing after the Pensacola - JAX route purely in terms of the number of people that will be served.

You'll never see passenger rail service return to the Ocala route because CSX rerouted most of its trains going south of Jacksonville onto that route following the opening of the Sunrail commuter rail line in Orlando.

 

[jis]

You'll never see passenger rail service return to the Ocala route because CSX rerouted most of its trains going south of Jacksonville onto that route following the opening of the Sunrail commuter rail line in Orlando.

Never is a very very long time. It is not clear that CSX will eventually remain in Florida at all. So we'll see, won't we? They have already been trying to get rid of the Auburndale to West Palm Beach segment. Port of Tampa is still somewhat attractive for them, but given how aggressively they are shrinking their route structure to about half a dozen chosen high density routes who knows? Tampa traffic is already barely at the tipping point for them.