Amtrak Guest Rewards 2.0 Coming January 2016

[PRR 60]

"I believe every Metropolitan Lounge allows Business Class passengers access."

Nope does NOT!! I can give you a quick example from experience. Washington DC does not allow Acela BC ( rode December 2014 no lounge access for any BC ) or Regional BC access to lounge. As far as I am aware New York Penn does not either. Unless something has changed in the past 6 months.

Again my conversation with Amtrak Customer Advisory Committee member in Chicago Met Lounge took place last week. So I highly doubt anything has changed. Whether you or anyone else wants to believe my statement matters little to me. But rest assured Chicago Metropolitan Lounge Union Station access was a recent change in past few years. As a long time passenger through that station I can assure you again BC lounge access was NOT allowed until just a few years ago. Access was hard fought and still underused by many Illinois Midwest BC riders - some who still aren't aware the perk exist for them.

If for some reason your just hating on the truth from messenger. You can search forum threads here to back up everything I have stated.

As mentioned above, Amtrak has different brands of lounges. The Club Acela's in the northeast (Boston, New York, Philadelphia and Washington) require Acela First Class or Sleeper for admission on a ticket alone. A Business Class ticket will not get you into a Club Acela. The Metropolitan Lounges (Chicago, Portland OR, Los Angeles) permit access with a Sleeper ticket or a Business Class ticket.

 

[Eric S]

That was my point - Metropolitan Lounges permit access to Business Class passengers. I was not trying to claim that Club Acelas do.

I'm aware that this is a relatively recent change.

 

[Ryan]

Yeah, I think everyone here but iggy is on the same page.

 

[PPorro]

This is going to be real simple (I hope?) How much is a one zone redemption from Chicago to Dallas NOW?

15,000 points for a roomette. 25,000 for a bedroom.

Thank you and Jimhudson also. For some reason it was asking me to make the reservation, in order to see how many points. I understand the second person rides for a coach seat - that's a nice deal.

I'm looking at different ways to make a rail vacation trip and not cover the same tracks twice. Ca Zephyr out to Denver, AGR points coach to Elko... (stay the weekend) pay cash for a ticket to Reno Monday one day or until the next train... (using my AGR card of course!) Coast Starlighter up and Empire Builder back to Chicago = two zones. In theory 45,000 points round trip + plus whatever points for the Denver to Elko segment, which should just about wipe out all my points.

I got the card notice from Chase. Too bad, I like them. Now we all watch and see if the points per dollar change or what's next? If it's not as favorable, I'll drop the card and say Thank You, it was fun.

Only time I've been unable to book a Roomette - in many test runs - has been holiday travel. The March Madness trip for the last few years, I have been able to get whatever I wanted on the Zephyr if I leave on a Tuesday. Must be at the casino by Thursday morning.

I don't know how many sleeper cars Amtrak has, but if I was running the railroad (ha ha aren't we all?) On a holiday weekend I'd have every working sleeper on the long routes, in service. Turning away customers is sending them to other transportation, losing them forever in some cases. Also make money when there's a high demand is easy, no brainer.

The theory that raising prices is good for business, eludes me. If the train isn't sold out, you are losing money. Trying to make it up by charging more, just drives away more customers and it's a spiral of financial doom. Amtrak ticket pricing has always been a mystery. Sell at one price, when it gets closer to full, raise prices and the last sleeper goes up to absurd.

But if it's not sold and the train is on the road, then drop the price again? In other words, if we can't get an exorbitant fee, we'll sell the room at a steep discount. ؟ Make up the money on vloume, not outrageous pricing that makes rail travel unattractive.

Why not one price level that's attractive enough to encourage people to travel in relaxation and comfort?

Use Amtrak.com to pull of the price of the trip desired: Harrisburg to Los Angeles via Pittsburgh and Chicago, 2 adults, roomette (or bedroom, if desired). Note the total cost. Multiply the cost in dollars by 34.5. That is the AGR redemption cost in points under the new program. Until January 24, it is hypothetical. Since the cost of the trip in dollars can change between now than then, the cost in points will similarly change and is not locked-in until the trip is booked.

Good to have working information to compare.

Chicago - Denver 15,000 points or new program Chicago - Denver 21,200 points. OK, better book now.

 

[Anderson]

As I've noted a few times, there's one issue (the Marketing gripe aside) that I don't think AGR can get around, and that's the program becoming even more NEC-centric than it has been in the past. Setting aside cherry-picked city pairs (CHI-WAS on the Cap[1], for example, or WAS-NOL on the Crescent[2]), there are a lot more places that lose out under the switch than gain. You also have a net loss insofar as BC/FC tickets get a bonus but sleeper pax don't (e.g. Select Executive is about $3350 cheaper if you only travel in Acela First than if you travel in a sleeper most of the time).

[1] The Cap has had fares sandbagged because of its connecting role between the Western LD trains and the Silvers. You can only smack someone but so hard on a connecting trip, and a ton of the Cap's reservations connect to other, often higher-yield, routes.

[2] The Crescent south of Atlanta has been the subject of some discussion on here; my understanding is that for some time, there's been a "bug" that a WAS-ATL trip costs more than WAS-NOL because Amtrak's yield management folks were directed to balance load factors (e.g. butts in seats) against yield factors (e.g. revenue). This led to the Anniston loophole (Anniston, AL being the station after Atlanta on the Crescent...and almost always substantially cheaper to book than Atlanta).

 

[dlagrua]

After all is said and done, the bigger question is if AGR 2.0 will make more money for Amtrak or end up losing money for Amtrak?

A good portion of sleeper passengers pay for their trips with AGR points. This results in less revenue than if the sleepers were sold as ticket fares, but combined with regular ticket sales the sleepers on LD trains tcurrently end to fill up. Come January 2016 the new system will require more points for the same LD trip. As a result less passengers will be using AGR points to book their trip and the availability of sleepers to be sold rises.

By eliminating many of the AGR trips will the sleepers still sell out at full price or will a portion remain unsold? Will the sleeper ticket prices decline a bit due to the increased availability, stay the same, or go up?

I choose to believe that the new AGR system may not increase sleeper ticket revenue as much as Amtrak believes it will, if at all..

 

[Cho Cho Charlie]

I am worried about the catch-all wording that my points will not expire as long as I have an open AGR Credit Card account. Well, my current account is being closed at the end of this month (September), and no word yet on any replacement card.

Will this mean that come October 1, all my points could instantly expire under the no open account clause?

 

[TinCan782]

As I understand the new program, almost any points activity will reset the 36 month clock. Used to be a paid trip was the only way. I'm not particularly concerned about a "gap" between the AGR credit card availability.

 

[jis]

I am worried about the catch-all wording that my points will not expire as long as I have an open AGR Credit Card account. Well, my current account is being closed at the end of this month (September), and no word yet on any replacement card.

Will this mean that come October 1, all my points could instantly expire under the no open account clause?

As per what AGRInsider posted on FlyerTalk, no points will expire between now and 24th of January when AGR 2.0 goes into effect. So you can relax a bit on that issue.

 

[rrdude]

After all is said and done, the bigger question is if AGR 2.0 will make more money for Amtrak or end up losing money for Amtrak?

A good portion of sleeper passengers pay for their trips with AGR points. This results in less revenue than if the sleepers were sold as ticket fares, but combined with regular ticket sales the sleepers on LD trains tcurrently end to fill up. Come January 2016 the new system will require more points for the same LD trip. As a result less passengers will be using AGR points to book their trip and the availability of sleepers to be sold rises.

By eliminating many of the AGR trips will the sleepers still sell out at full price or will a portion remain unsold? Will the sleeper ticket prices decline a bit due to the increased availability, stay the same, or go up?

I choose to believe that the new AGR system may not increase sleeper ticket revenue as much as Amtrak believes it will, if at all..

Where do you get your information that a "...'Good Portion' of the sleeper passengers pay for their trips with AGR Points" ?

And what defines a "Good Portion"? 5%, 10%, 20%?

I would be very surprised if the AGR-paid sleepers were over 5%, but hey, I'm wrong more often than I'm correct.

 

[dlagrua]

After all is said and done, the bigger question is if AGR 2.0 will make more money for Amtrak or end up losing money for Amtrak?

A good portion of sleeper passengers pay for their trips with AGR points. This results in less revenue than if the sleepers were sold as ticket fares, but combined with regular ticket sales the sleepers on LD trains tcurrently end to fill up. Come January 2016 the new system will require more points for the same LD trip. As a result less passengers will be using AGR points to book their trip and the availability of sleepers to be sold rises.

By eliminating many of the AGR trips will the sleepers still sell out at full price or will a portion remain unsold? Will the sleeper ticket prices decline a bit due to the increased availability, stay the same, or go up?

I choose to believe that the new AGR system may not increase sleeper ticket revenue as much as Amtrak believes it will, if at all..

Where do you get your information that a "...'Good Portion' of the sleeper passengers pay for their trips with AGR Points" ?

And what defines a "Good Portion"? 5%, 10%, 20%?

I would be very surprised if the AGR-paid sleepers were over 5%, but hey, I'm wrong more often than I'm correct.

Applying logic; if only an insignificant number of passengers were using AGR points to book sleepers, then why would Amtrak be so concerned as to revamp the program? The AGR program is massive with thousands of members, it is being used and Amtrak management must be taking notice of it. I don't have exact numbers to share but we always meet other passengers in the sleepers traveling on AGR Guest Reward points. Not a realistic barometer of usage but who has the exact number??

My guestimate is that up to 25% of the sleepers are booked using AGR points. In view of the amount whatever it is, Amtrak with AGR 2.0 must view AGR usage as an opportunity to increase revenue.

 

[Bob Dylan]

AGR is a Profit Center for Amtrak, and it's anticipated that the New AGR2.0 will result in a substantial increase in revenue.

The same situation applies to the New BOA Credit Card(S), both parties expect to profit from this relationship!

As was said, AGR has beaucoup members, most of whom ride on the NEC and other Corridors. I have heard that AU Members are less than 1% of AGR's Membership, so they really won't miss us if we quit riding in the Sleepers which are priced extremely High and that only Rich people can afford to pay for.

I'm guessing lots of us,including me, if we want to continue to ride LD Trains, will be riding on Coach Awards or Paid Coach Tickets and taking Shorter trips due to the High Prices and the devaluation of points, both earned and redeemed!. YMMV

As for AGR Members riding in Sleepers, it has been my expierence from riding on LD Trains hundreds of times since I became an AGR Member, that the Overwhelming Majority of People in the Sleepers were on PAID Reservations!

I have no stats either, they are closely held , which is as it should be!

 

[jis]

Applying logic; if only an insignificant number of passengers were using AGR points to book sleepers, then why would Amtrak be so concerned as to revamp the program? The AGR program is massive with thousands of members, it is being used and Amtrak management must be taking notice of it. I don't have exact numbers to share but we always meet other passengers in the sleepers traveling on AGR Guest Reward points. Not a realistic barometer of usage but who has the exact number??

My guestimate is that up to 25% of the sleepers are booked using AGR points. In view of the amount whatever it is, Amtrak with AGR 2.0 must view AGR usage as an opportunity to increase revenue.

So at best it is a hypothesis that needs to be validated, and a gusstimate is not a validation.

The primary goal of AGR 2.0 is to make AGR more attractive for corridor customers. This has been openly stated by Amtrak, so I don't see any reason to disbelieve that. And that is precisely what it achieves. Whatever happens to LD Sleeper passengers is entirely incidental to that goal and if any significant advantages follow, that is the icing on the cake. OTOH if any significant disadvantages follow I am sure corrective measures will be taken.

My guess though is that getting the same Sleeper accommodation to turn over multiple times on relatively lower fare segments rather than them being occupied the entire length by a AGR redemption can be nothing but good from a revenue perspective, provided there is enough demand of that sort. That is mainly because multiple short segment fares usually add up to something more than a single long segment fare which makes both AGR redemption for them attractive in the new scheme, and opens up inventory for a broader group of passengers. Now who knows whether that potential set of passengers exists or not. We'll see I suppose.

 

[Ryan]

A good portion of sleeper passengers pay for their trips with AGR points.

[citation needed]

Come January 2016 the new system will require more points for the same LD trip.

In some cases yes, in others not.

 

[Ispolkom]

As for AGR Members riding in Sleepers, it has been my expierence from riding on LD Trains hundreds of times since I became an AGR Member, that the Overwhelming Majority of People in the Sleepers were on PAID Reservations!

I've talked up AGR to fellow sleeper passengers dozens of times at shared meals in the dining car. Most of my fellow diners didn't belong to AGR, and perishingly few were on award trips.

The primary goal of AGR 2.0 is to make AGR more attractive for corridor customers. This has been openly stated by Amtrak, so I don't see any reason to disbelieve that. And that is precisely what it achieves. Whatever happens to LD Sleeper passengers is entirely incidental to that goal and if any significant advantages follow, that is the icing on the cake.

Quoted for truth. The fact that my ox is getting gored isn't any reason to start assuming that it's a very important ox.

 

[Kat314159]

The primary goal of AGR 2.0 is to make AGR more attractive for corridor customers. This has been openly stated by Amtrak, so I don't see any reason to disbelieve that. And that is precisely what it achieves. Whatever happens to LD Sleeper passengers is entirely incidental to that goal and if any significant advantages follow, that is the icing on the cake. OTOH if any significant disadvantages follow I am sure corrective measures will be taken.

At least on my cooridor they are doing a mediocre at best job of this (I know I don't count I'm not NEC).

Select+ Status under old AGR: 50 Stl-CHI round trips. Every 16th ride is free (1500pts special route)

New AGR($27 ticket which is the price I most often pay for the RT): 93 Round Trips every 17.25th ride is free (932 pt ticket)

Yes this is not as dramatic as the devaluation on some of the sleepers. However, if my happy buns are warming a seat through the IL farm fields nearly every weekend of the year that *should* be enough to get me a sodapop and a lounge seat at the stations. Oh well it was nice while it lasted.

 

[Manny T]

What has been argued above, that "a good [although never defined] portion of sleeper passengers pay for their tickets with AGR points," would not seem to fit well with the following statistics in a recent article (arguing in favor of US passenger rail) in the American Conservative, cited on another thread:

"Amtrak makes a lot more money from sleeping cars than from coaches: by its own calculations, sleeping car passengers account for just 15 percent of long-distance passengers but contribute 36 percent of total revenue. Amtrak’s average yield per mile for coach passengers is 14.2 cents; for sleeping car passengers, 27.2 cents."

To me it would seem that paying passengers must make up a majority of sleeping car pax.

Here is the full article: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/dont-railroad-amtrak/

 

[AmtrakBlue]

In case anyone did not see the other thread, you may want to hold off on applying online as it seems the computer is denying most, if not all, applications.

 

[pennyk]

MODERATOR NOTE: many comments that related to the new credit card that were posted in this thread have been moved to the the AGR Master Card thread.

 

[oregon pioneer]

MODERATOR NOTE: many comments that related to the new credit card that were posted in this thread have been moved to the the AGR Master Card thread.

Could you please post a link to that thread? For some reason it is not showing up on my "New Content" page. I know I saw it somewhere, but I can't find it now.

Thank you!

 

[pennyk]

MODERATOR NOTE: many comments that related to the new credit card that were posted in this thread have been moved to the the AGR Master Card thread.

Could you please post a link to that thread? For some reason it is not showing up on my "New Content" page. I know I saw it somewhere, but I can't find it now.

Thank you!

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/65160-new-amtrak-guest-rewards-master-card-fall-2015/

 

[cyferx]

Not going to win any fans with my comment - rarely do. But for many of us it's hard to feel sorry for those of you who have collected 100,000's of points. Granted you have spent to earn them in almost all cases. But some of us haven't had the benefit of rewards credit card - we have earned our points by putting in seat time. Even with new system - although greatly devalued - those of you with stockpiles will get plenty of free travel opportunities. While the rest of us will have little to no chance of land cruises of old.

For those who have been at this for years - you had a great run - got to game the system for a long time. Appreciate that fact and realize that if you want Amtrak to have a chance at being here years down road - it was overdue for them to make this move. Although some tweaking needs done - listening to some reasonable feedback that has been provided here and other places.

I am confused. How is playing by the rules "gaming the system?" How is it that you didn't have the benefits of a rewards credit card? And how is the use of the card, a system that Amtrak has put in place, "gaming the system?"

Getting points through the AGR card is just as sanctioned and built into the AGR system as getting points by "putting in seat time." Amtrak made the system, so we are using it. And unless you have horrendous credit, you could have too, but for some reason chose not to. Personally, I don't care who supplies my Mastercard or Visa, so if they wish to differentiate on points that is their business decision, and mine to participate in their plan. AGR made the decision that it was of value to them to co-brand a credit card and to incentivize its use in exchange for free or enhanced travel. I agreed to use their card in exchange for that value add. They are getting the benefit of their business decision, and if it wasn't working for them as well as they liked, then they could change that system, and I am free to stop participating. But I am not responsible for "gaming" the system they built if I use it like they wanted me to.

Chase Signature Visa has an even better incentive than the branded AGR card, 2 points for travel related expenses, so buying Amtrak tickets with the Signature Visa resulted in 3 points per $1 spent. Again, if it is in their business judgement worth it to give me 3 points this way, how is my use of it gaming the system? It is true though that you need somewhat higher than average credit to get a Signature Visa, so this would not be available to some people.

My suspicion is that these co-branding and points exchanges (in the case of Chase Signature) have been a positive revenue source for Amtrak and the change from Chase to BoA is the result of successful bidding by that bank rather than a financial retreat.

In any case, following the rules, particularly as they were intended, is not gaming the system.

 

[me_little_me]

What has been argued above, that "a good [although never defined] portion of sleeper passengers pay for their tickets with AGR points," would not seem to fit well with the following statistics in a recent article (arguing in favor of US passenger rail) in the American Conservative, cited on another thread:

"Amtrak makes a lot more money from sleeping cars than from coaches: by its own calculations, sleeping car passengers account for just 15 percent of long-distance passengers but contribute 36 percent of total revenue. Amtrak’s average yield per mile for coach passengers is 14.2 cents; for sleeping car passengers, 27.2 cents."

To me it would seem that paying passengers must make up a majority of sleeping car pax.

Here is the full article: http://www.theamericanconservative.com/articles/dont-railroad-amtrak/

How meaningful is that statistic? It seems that sometimes revenues don't include expenses so if Amtrak's "revenues" from sleeper passengers may also, because of higher expenses, reduce Amtrak's profit (mean more loss).

Anybody know whether sleepers really help or hinder given that one amortizes the cost properly (i.e. engine costs per car; diner costs mostly attributed to sleeper; attendant costs/car, payments to other RR per car, etc)?

 

[jis]

Always the relevant question to ask is how good or bad the revenue is. I.e. what is the cost per unit of revenue. While Amtrak is able to compute an overall CASM and RASM, I doubt that they can compute a meaningful similar set of numbers just for Sleepers.

Leaving aside the cost of amortizing the capital for engines and cars, which is probably noise for fully depreciated or close to such capital equipment, I doubt even purely operationally such numbers are available at such fine granularity.For one thing there is way too large a proportion of the costs accounted for by allocation, which brings in the issues of the allocation rules used, which seem to be a deeply held state secret for the Sleepers. So who knows? So they can just be tweaked to fit whichever narrative is convenient for the day. Cynical? Moi?

 

[Ryan]

A well written and rational look at how the new system plays out systemwide. Even has charts and maths and stuff.

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/observation-tower/archive/2015/09/15/how-will-you-fare-under-the-redesigned-amtrak-guest-rewards.aspx

The bottom line is unsurprising:

In summary, it seems like the vast majority of frequent Amtrak travelers will be better off under the redesigned Amtrak Guest Rewards system, especially those who book well in advance of travel. Those who will lose out, however, are those who wait until the last minute to book (when fares, and thus the number or points required, will be higher), prefer to earn a lot of points quickly through many inexpensive trips, those who can maximize the value of their points under the current zone system (see my El Paso to Wolf Point example, all within the West Zone), and most who redeem points for Bedrooms and Viewliner Roomettes except at the very lowest fare buckets.