Amtrak Guest Rewards 2.0 Coming January 2016

[PRR 60]

So, I have about 50k points. And absolutely no plan to use them in the works. It looks like I need to be getting a plan together.....

Does anyone have any idea of when the entire new scheme will be made public? I wonder if there will be time for those of us with points "in the bank" to be able to take a look at the "old" plan versus the "new" plan to be able to make informed decisions.

Also, I will likely NOT be changing to a new card, due to the FICO score hit taken by a new inquiry, and the new card lowering the average age of accounts. I had an inquiry done to look at the possibility of buying a new car (gave a $1000 rebate if financed through the manufacturer) and the inquiry alone took 27 points off FICO score. Will just take the current card and cut it up.....paying the balance in full as always and letting the card sleep.

The public announcement is scheduled for August 31 with emails to all members and details on the AGR website.

I have no idea how the AGR credit card transition will take place, but in a similar situation when one of my airline cards moved to a new bank, the account was simply moved over with no application required. The credit agencies did not view it as a new account. The "account opened" date on the credit reports shows the original account open date from the prior bank.

 

[tonys96]

WOW! That is scary..........the 8/31 announcement could say that all trips under the "old" scheme must be completed by 12/31. That would give us only 4 months to plan and execute trips, if the "new" scheme is a huge devaluation. (Worst case scenario)

Glad that I did not get drawn in by the bonus point offer to purchase this summer :huh: No way would I be able to burn 60/70k points in 4 months.

 

[jebr]

Theoretically, yes, though I would be immensely surprised if they'd retroactively apply it to already booked award trips.

I would not be surprised if it will apply to trips booked after September 1 that are taken after the first of the year.

 

[PRR 60]

WOW! That is scary..........the 8/31 announcement could say that all trips under the "old" scheme must be completed by 12/31. That would give us only 4 months to plan and execute trips, if the "new" scheme is a huge devaluation. (Worst case scenario)

Glad that I did not get drawn in by the bonus point offer to purchase this summer :huh: No way would I be able to burn 60/70k points in 4 months.

Or, it could say that you have until December 31 to redeem under the existing program with reservations permitted up to 11 months out (11/30/16). Or maybe something in between. And maybe it will not be such a huge devaluation after all.
Gee, I always prided myself in being the most suspicious and cynical person here. I have to up my game!

 

[tonys96]

WOW! That is scary..........the 8/31 announcement could say that all trips under the "old" scheme must be completed by 12/31. That would give us only 4 months to plan and execute trips, if the "new" scheme is a huge devaluation. (Worst case scenario)

Glad that I did not get drawn in by the bonus point offer to purchase this summer :huh: No way would I be able to burn 60/70k points in 4 months.

Or, it could say that you have until December 31 to redeem under the existing program with reservations permitted up to 11 months out (11/30/16). Or maybe something in between. And maybe it will not be such a huge devaluation after all.
Gee, I always prided myself in being the most suspicious and cynical person here. I have to up my game!

I did note (Worst case scenario) in my post. And your first listed possibility could have been noted (Best case scenario).

The actual scenario will likely fall somewhere between. The scenario under post # 103 would be pretty onerous, giving us only 4 months to plan and execute trips under the "old" scheme.

 

[PRR 60]

The last time AGR changed redemption requirements (increasing points for some award travel), it was announced January 4 (2012). The changes went into effect on April 1. Reservations made on or before March 31 used the lower points requirements and allowed reservations for travel as far in advance as permitted by the reservation system (11 months). Once the new redemption requirements became effective on April 1, all new reservations and any modifications of prior reservations required using the new point requirements.

Of course, we have no idea how things will be handled this time, but since many of the same people who worked that change are working this one, I have to suspect it will be similar.

 

[tonys96]

The last time AGR changed redemption requirements (increasing points for some award travel), it was announced January 4 (2012). The changes went into effect on April 1. Reservations made on or before March 31 used the lower points requirements and allowed reservations for travel as far in advance as permitted by the reservation system (11 months). Once the new redemption requirements became effective on April 1, all new reservations and any modifications of prior reservations required using the new point requirements.

Of course, we have no idea how things will be handled this time, but since many of the same people who worked that change are working this one, I have to suspect it will be similar.

Hopefully you will be proven to be correct!

 

[Anderson]

I was just stating what points mean to me. I know we all have different wants and needs.

Sure. However, you can read about how people AGR here and on Flyertalk and realize that it was unsustainable. AGR as it is now can provide great value for some people and poor value for others depending on where they live. Certainly for the one-zone redemption, being right on the border of a zone is going to provide the most value.

On this board there are long discussions about redemptions that don't necessarily meet a need for transportation. However, neither does a point run, although those don't create big problems with available inventory. Of course AGR members want to maximize train time, number of meals, etc. It's understandable, and I don't think anyone blames AGR members for trying to maximize their utility within the current rules. However, it's not like Amtrak would never react. Airlines used to have disproportionate numbers of award passengers to Hawaii until they tweaked their policies.

As with all devaluing of loyalty programs, we probably should have seen it coming. We're just going to have to see what happens before panicking.

I guess the way I see it is that there were few bad deals on offer. The closest I came was when I burned a block of AGR for Business points on a last-minute WAS-RVR sleeper switch...and even then I managed to get a bit over $.01/point out of the deal. By and large there were lots of really good deals and a few places that you could bend over backwards and get a lousy deal (for example, in the Capitol Corridor-bus vs. California Zephyr case, IIRC Amtrak does their best to avoid having too many EMY/SAC-RNO pax because of space issues)...but those were pretty few and far between.

It is probably fair to say that AGR should have devalued more modestly and more regularly (e.g. Hyatt does a reshuffle once a year); an adjustment trend of 5% per year (or otherwise roughly in line with fares), probably moving higher-end prices in 5000 increments (because of round numbers being easier for folks to think about) and lower-end ones in 500 increments, would make sense. I'm actually willing to level this as a criticism...I think most of us would have taken a string of 10% devaluations better than a one-shot 50-75% one.

 

[SteveSFL]

I wonder if discounts on cash fares (senior, NARP, AAA, etc) will translate through to discounted points redemptions??

 

[rrdude]

OK, we are all, me included, assuming, that Amtrak is going to move forward with AGR 2.0 that was first reported here an on TrainOrders, no reason not to assume that.

But I'd like to hear comments from AU'ers on "what is really wrong with this new AGR 2.0", ABSENT THE POINT DEVALUATION, (I know it's hard to separate, especially if you have a lot of points to burn, like me)

But, if you were not already an AGR member, and just joining, what would you complain about?

And, (assuming again here, not a good rule to follow) if Amtrak Guest Rewards does move to "Revenue-Based" loyalty plan, what is the downside, for you?

I ask this, because I am somewhat of a fan of SWA tiered redemption model, as we say in scouts, "It works for me".

Remember, put yourself in the shoes of Amtrak, from:

• Loyalty-perspective. (want to incent existing customers to ride more, and want to capture new riders)
• Revenue perspective. (want to maximize revenue, especially lucrative fares)

in a short summary, how would YOU design Amtrak's loyalty program, without wearing your Rail-Fan hat?

 

[BCL]

OK, we are all, me included, assuming, that Amtrak is going to move forward with AGR 2.0 that was first reported here an on TrainOrders, no reason not to assume that.

But I'd like to hear comments from AU'ers on "what is really wrong with this new AGR 2.0", ABSENT THE POINT DEVALUATION, (I know it's hard to separate, especially if you have a lot of points to burn, like me)

But, if you were not already an AGR member, and just joining, what would you complain about?

And, (assuming again here, not a good rule to follow) if Amtrak Guest Rewards does move to "Revenue-Based" loyalty plan, what is the downside, for you?

I ask this, because I am somewhat of a fan of SWA tiered redemption model, as we say in scouts, "It works for me".

Remember, put yourself in the shoes of Amtrak, from:

• Loyalty-perspective. (want to incent existing customers to ride more, and want to capture new riders)
• Revenue perspective. (want to maximize revenue, especially lucrative fares)

in a short summary, how would YOU design Amtrak's loyalty program, without wearing your Rail-Fan hat?

Sure. I think a lot of people approached setting up AGR redemptions as "How am I going to get the longest trip out of this with the fewest points redeemed?"

Granted - I could have probably used up my points on several special route trips in lieu of paying cash. However, it felt like maybe I should save them up for one of those crazy routes that everyone was talking about. I'm not quite sure how Amtrak deals with points - whether or not they're considered a liability on their books. We look at it now, and AGR members are often hoarding points in hopes of that grand trip in sleeper accommodations.

I'm actually thinking it might make for a more interesting trip if multi-city can actually be applied to AGR redemptions. I'd enjoy it if maybe I could take the CZ EMY-CHI and have a stop in Reno, then Denver, and maybe another along the way. Of course then there's the matter of having enough points.

 

[yarrow]

couple of things i will be interested to see. one big, one small. will the practice of allowing a single sleeper redemption to be used for up to the number of pax allowed for that accommodation(eg. 2 in a roomette on 1 redemption) be continued? if sleeper redemptions can be made using the amtrak website, which i think i would tend to do, how up to speed will the phone agr agents be? we shall see

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I wonder if discounts on cash fares (senior, NARP, AAA, etc) will translate through to discounted points redemptions??

If AGR decided to offer this it would be the first time I've seen such a thing.

But, if you were not already an AGR member, and just joining, what would you complain about?

I'd probably complain about the perks and earning potential being heavily weighted toward a handful of corridors like the NEC but largely irrelevant in the other 95% of the country. Once these new changes are deployed I suppose we can add redemptions to that list as well.

And, (assuming again here, not a good rule to follow) if Amtrak Guest Rewards does move to "Revenue-Based" loyalty plan, what is the downside, for you?

Revenue based plans generally benefit (or at least don't seriously harm) folks who routinely travel for business. In 95% of the country using Amtrak for business is a pointless endeavor. Previously this was only a problem on the earning side and there were other ways to earn points that didn't suffer from this issue. Now with redemptions also being revenue based I can imagine AGR will only be useful to me when reserving tickets far in advance during low volume periods when the weather isn't nice and there are no holidays approaching. That might be good for Amtrak but it will bad for me personally.

I ask this, because I am somewhat of a fan of SWA tiered redemption model, as we say in scouts, "It works for me".

WN works great as part of a larger points earning strategy that involves both revenue based and chart based redemptions for different use cases. As more and more plans adopt the revenue model the usefulness of each plan is further diluted. Eventually every program will be revenue based. At that point we might as well be clipping coupons and rebates out of the Sunday paper because the ability to benefit from using your own brain will have vanished.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Two ideas:

1) if it's not broke, don't fix it, just "fine tune" it like the original BS presentation to LOSSAN sort of proposed

2) do away with AGR completely and "save" the money that is spent on it, since it's not a profit center! The Mica Managers in Congress will be pleased

 

[jis]

Jim, you are now ready to run for Congress

 

[Bob Dylan]

Nope, I'd rather remain poor but semi-honest!

And besides, Washington is a great place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there again!

As LBJ said in his farewell address to Congress: "..I'm going home to Texas where they know when you're sick and care when you die!.."

 

[jis]

Except when it comes to LD passenger trains? Well I suppose they do step in sometimes when something is about to die. Witness the resurrection of the Texas Eagle from the ashes, though absent Kay Bailey Hutchinson, I don't know what will happen today should such an eventuality arise.

Then again there is hope in the Texas HSR, maybe.

But back to AGR, as I said earlier, I would really like to see pure points or even points and dollars upgrades be added as a feature. Usually I am perfectly happy to buy a Coach tciket even cross country, it is the Sleeper upcharge that is the killer, and frankly, without Sleeper I ain;t riding a train cross country anymore, specially with the unpredictable treatment of single riders with respect to seat assignments in Coach. Been there done that in my student days, both by Amtrak and Greyhound.

 

[pennyk]

OK, we are all, me included, assuming, that Amtrak is going to move forward with AGR 2.0 that was first reported here an on TrainOrders, no reason not to assume that.

But I'd like to hear comments from AU'ers on "what is really wrong with this new AGR 2.0", ABSENT THE POINT DEVALUATION, (I know it's hard to separate, especially if you have a lot of points to burn, like me)

But, if you were not already an AGR member, and just joining, what would you complain about?

And, (assuming again here, not a good rule to follow) if Amtrak Guest Rewards does move to "Revenue-Based" loyalty plan, what is the downside, for you?

I ask this, because I am somewhat of a fan of SWA tiered redemption model, as we say in scouts, "It works for me".

Remember, put yourself in the shoes of Amtrak, from:

• Loyalty-perspective. (want to incent existing customers to ride more, and want to capture new riders)
• Revenue perspective. (want to maximize revenue, especially lucrative fares)

in a short summary, how would YOU design Amtrak's loyalty program, without wearing your Rail-Fan hat?

Jerry, without knowing all the details, it is hard to evaluate (or trash like some are doing) the "new" program. At first blush, it appears to be a fairer method to reward loyal customers.

 

[Ryan]

Starting with a clean sheet, and knowing no details, a Ryan-designed AGR would look something like this.

Earn points per dollar paid (exists today).

Earn more points per dollar paid for "upgraded" tickets (e.g. earn 1 point/$ for coach/Acela BC, 2 points/$ for BC/Acela First, 3 points/$ for sleeping car accommodations).

No 100 point minimum for segments.

On the redemption side, redeem at a fixed(?) points per dollar for the current fare (i.e. bucket pricing now applies to redemptions, just as it does for cash tickets). This gets rid of awkward things like WAS-CHI being a very short 2 zone trip, but a longer BOS-MIA being a 1 zone trip.

This allows for things like cash+points reservations, or paying for a coach ticket and then "buying up" to a roomette or bedroom on points.

On the status level sides, probably not too much change that I can think of.

That's the broad strokes, it's the assignment of point values on both the earning and redeeming side that will be the important differentiator between a good program and a crappy one.

2) do away with AGR completely and "save" the money that is spent on it, since it's not a profit center!

Do we actually know that?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Fairer to which customers though? The vast majority of the country that has rarely benefited from AGR status, or the tiny percentage of the country who have always been the primary focus? The folks who live near a zone boundary could always buy a revenue coach seat to the boundary before starting their redemption. Which to be frank is a problem I'd love to have. I have no doubt that there will be new options and opportunities associated with this change, but traditionally major loyalty program changes have almost always come with new devaluations. In fact I cannot name even a single example of a substantial program change to a major program that was not also accompanied by a devaluation on or around the same time period.

 

[Ryan]

The issue is that the tiny percentage of the country provides the majority of passenger miles and revenue (that's an assumption that may be way off base).

That builds in an inherent tension, do you build a program that benefits the majority of your customer base, or the nation as a whole (or can you build a program that does both)?

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

I would vote for the nation as a whole, because then, in an ideal world (yes, I realize that is the problem--that we do not live in an ideal world), more people in more areas of the nation benefit, they take the train more because of the program, and they increase that percentage of the country traveling by train.

 

[Bingozone]

By the way it said no zone improvements and no changes

 

[BCL]

The issue is that the tiny percentage of the country provides the majority of passenger miles and revenue (that's an assumption that may be way off base).

That builds in an inherent tension, do you build a program that benefits the majority of your customer base, or the nation as a whole (or can you build a program that does both)?

I certainly understand that the area that the NEC serves has a substantial population (about 17% of the US population), has Amtrak's most profitable routes, is the most dependent on train travel, and is the most politically connected. Like it or not, these are Amtrak's "best customers". That's always the issue with any business, and Amtrak is a business. Do you try to expand your customer base or cater to your best customers? A lot of businesses have made the mistake of choosing the wrong path.

As it stands now, it sounds like the majority of Amtrak's customer base is not in the NEC and is generally indifferent about AGR. I live in the San Francisco Bay Area. While it's been fun gathering points and imagining what I would do with them, I don't really see the point.

 

[BCL]

Starting with a clean sheet, and knowing no details, a Ryan-designed AGR would look something like this.

Earn points per dollar paid (exists today).

Earn more points per dollar paid for "upgraded" tickets (e.g. earn 1 point/$ for coach/Acela BC, 2 points/$ for BC/Acela First, 3 points/$ for sleeping car accommodations).

No 100 point minimum for segments.

I don't disagree in principle, but minimum points/miles/kilometers have existed with travel loyalty programs for a long time. I know some have discontinued those, but minimum points have often been a big equalizer. Perhaps it can change to something different, such as a minimum of 50 points. Still - the minimum points does encourage butts in seats.