Amtrak ONLY Rail Transit to Not Allow Pets!

[D.P. Roberts]

airlines are already doing this. why is amtrak such a pain??? if people are willing to pay, then there should be a market for it!

I'd be willing to pay NOT to have pets on the train. Or, in other words, I'm less likely to take the train if I have to hear and smell other people's pets.

Travel is full of trade-offs: what annoyances am I willing to put up with, and for how long? What am I willing to spend, and what other annoyances would I put up with instead, in order to get rid of one of these things that are annoying me right now?

Airline trips are short - only a few hours. If I was on a train for two days next to a dog that howled the whole time, or a person who howled into their cell phone the whole time, I'd probably give up train travel and just go back to flying or driving.

Yes, Amtrak needs to consider the desires of those who travel with pets. But it also needs to consider the desires of everybody else on the train who does NOT want to travel with your pet.

 

[me_little_me]

Not sure if this has been mentioned but Kathleen Parker's column in our paper today is all about animals on Amtrak. She says there is pending legislation supported by both parties to allow pets on Amtrak trains for trips less than 750 miles. An interesting article found in most major newspapers. (It was in our little Times Gazette this morning).

Guess Lots of us will have to Stop Ridng Regionals if Fido and Fluffy are going to start Ridng these Trains! <_< (Of course Pet Owners will say "Not My ____!!! They're an Angel" :giggle: Please no Hate Mail, I like Pets too! At Home where they Belong! )

Big on home cooking, eh? :giggle:

 

[BCL]

Would it be like the movie Crimson Tide, where the captain of a nuclear powered ballistic missile sub brings his dog on board and lets it pee anywhere it wants?

 

[Linda T]

The mileage idea is a joke. Take for example, the Cardinal between Chicago and Clifton Forge, that's 710 miles and takes (when on time) 19 hours! When I was on the Cardinal yesterday it ran so late I never made it to CLF, I had to detrain at WSS to catch the 51 back. It was over 4.5 hours late (that would make a 710 mile trip, nearly a complete 24 hours!) That's a long time for a dog to be kenneled.

And yes, I get it. Those who want Amtrak to permit pet travel are responsible pet owners. But not everyone is, and even those who are -- how do they know how their pet will handle train travel if it's never traveled by train before? Not every pet is a good traveler. How does Amtrak handle the bad ones? I have owned dogs most all my life, I currently have two cats. I love pets, but I would never force my pets on other people.

 

[aidancheddar]

Do you realize how bumpy Amtrak's lines can be? Couldn't even go to the bathroom straight one time. Pets will likely puke everywhere.

 

[MattW]

I believe the text of the bill is for "less than 750" miles. Meaning Amtrak could easily set a time limit and still meet the law. At a guess, the final requirements will be small animals (limited to cats and dogs) in kennels only, between stations 6 hours or less apart, in coach only (maybe Acela business class), not in quiet cars, stored in the overhead rack (not touching a seat). They may even further limit it to corridor runs though I don't know how that would work within the law. Many other transit systems, including airlines (which don't have as great a fresh air inflow) have similar guidelines as above and seem to have no problems. Metro North doesn't even have size and kennel restrictions that I can find.

 

[aidancheddar]

If they're in kennels, why put them in overhead? This goes back to the whole puking thing too. Pretty dangerous place for them too if one where all accidentally fall from to much movement of the animal and train.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

If they're in kennels, why put them in overhead? This goes back to the whole puking thing too. Pretty dangerous place for them too if one where all accidentally fall from to much movement of the animal and train.

I agree.

And, unlike an airplane, most coach cars have a simple, open shelf above the seats, rather than a closed compartment. Personally, I don't want someone's pukey, long-kenneled dog or cat above my head!

Secondly, Amtrak is only somewhat like an airplane. Sure, train travel is a form of transportation, but Amtrak also rents out sleeping rooms for a day or more, which makes it very much like a hotel. Most hotels don't allow pets; some do, but certainly not the majority. So, the simple airline analogy just doesn't work.

 

[amamba]

I would suggest that underneath the seat - like on a plane - would make more sense than above the seat.

I just don't thi k it's a big deal at all to carry on a kenneled pet along the NEC or other corridor service. I have yet to read any argument against it where a similar thing can and does happen on a plane trip of comparable length that allows pets in the cabin.

 

[Bus Nut]

A) There's a big thread on rr.net about this, and while it was not USDA, there was a law passed in the late 1970's regarding ANIMAL WELFARE. These rules are for the animal's comfort and well-being. The conditions on Amtrak trains in the 70s with heritage baggage cars and long distances between stops were not deemed safe or humane. Service animals are an EXEMPTION to Amtrak's ban on carrying pets. They ride in the climate-controlled cabin with the patron. The ADA of 1990 pre-empted Amtrak and all other common carriers' rules about uncrated animals in passenger compartments due to the special needs of the blind and other disabled persons.

B) The service standards quoted could be found at any public transit agency or common carrier (such as Greyhound) in the USA. It is a translation into plain English of the current ADA regulations. Amtrak is instructing their employees to do exactly what is required by law.

C) Service animals which are not under control (leash or voice) of the person they assist can be removed from the vehicle per ADA regulations. Many persons with disabilities cannot afford the fees to get a professionally trained service animal (starts at five figures) and so attempt to get by with an inadequately trained animal. This can lead to ejection for that patron and their animal when the animal's behavior becomes a nuisance.

D) For the record, there is no scientific evidence that "seizure dogs" can detect seizures in humans. In fact, it's not clear what, if any utility they provide. (And they are a very large and expensive placebo.) Hopefully regulations and sensitivity training will be updated to reflect this.

E) The absolute latest rulemaking from the government on service animals indicates that only DOGS and MINIATURE HORSES may be designated as service animals. No cats, ferrets, chickens, snakes....

Agreed. I believe that sometime shortly after the formation of Amtrak, the USDA (or perhaps some other agency with similar jurisdiction) issued regulations for common carriers transporting animals which Amtrak found to be overly burdensome....minimum/maximum allowable temperatures (baggage cars are not air conditioned), rest and exercise breaks (and the liability for handling animals during them, not to mention delay of trains while these breaks occurred) and other such. The upshot was that Amtrak declined to carry animals any longer, unless those animals were trained service animals cared for by the passenger. However, one loophole which has been discussed here previously is that Amtrak will not ask for any certification or proof that the animal has been specially trained or even what disability the passenger is claiming; they will take the owner's word that it is a "trained service animal" and allow it aboard to be cared for by the passenger.

Not quite. And your posting sounds like an encouragement to cheat the system which can result in the pet and/or owner subject to involuntary removal.

From the Amtrak Standards Manual:

3. Determining If An Animal Is A Service Animal Is This Your Pet
a) Physical Indicators Look for physical indicators on the animal. Some service animals wear harnesses, vests, capes or backpacks. Markings on these items or on the animals tags may identify it as a service animal. The absence of such equipment however, does not necessarily mean the animal is not a service animal.
b) Observation Observe the animals behavior. Service animals are trained to behave properly in public settings. For example, a properly trained guide dog will not run around the station, bark or growl at other passengers, or bite or jump on people.
Some service animals provide assistance or perform specific services.
Service animals are not pets; they are working animals that are specifically trained to provide assistance for individuals who have disabilities.
Some service animals can help a person by pulling a wheelchair, fetching dropped items, handling money, carrying bags, opening doors or assisting a person with a visual impairment.
Some service animals serve as seizureresponse/alert animals for people with seizure disorders or alert individuals with impaired hearing to intruders or sounds.
c) Is This Your Pet
Credible verbal assurances is needed from the passenger that the animal is a service animal. The way to do this:
Ask the passenger, Is this your pet?
If the passenger responds that the animal is a service animal and not a pet, but uncertainty remains about the animal, you may ask appropriate follow up questions.
Ask the passenger, What tasks or functions does your animal perform for you? or What has it been trained to do for you?
The passenger must respond that the animal acts as a guide, notifies of a seizures, etc.

Service Standards Manual No. 6 11-13
11-14 Assisting Passengers with Disabilities
Employees may not ask the passenger what his/her disability is or the cause of the disability.
Although there may be a few people who try to beat the system by bringing pets on-board the train, most passengers with disabilities claiming to have service animals really do have service animals.
Since access for persons with disabilities traveling with service animals is a civil right covered under the ADA, employees should err on the side of caution by permitting access to passenger areas. If the animal looks like a service animal and the customer says it is a service animal welcome the animal aboard.
d) Not a Service Animal
If an animal is determined not to be a service animal or if the service animal poses a direct threat to others, the animal can be denied access to Amtrak premises.
On the rare occasion that an animal has to be excluded from Amtrak premises, you should handle the situation in a polite and professional manner.
When an animal is excluded from Amtrak premises while en route, the employee making this decision must complete a Passenger Incident Report (NRPC 3200) detailing the incident.

 

[Bus Nut]

One the way back we had a guy get on with a beautiful golden retriever, It did have the vest on that read service dog. I got the chance to talk with the guy a few minutes and he said it was the dog's first trip....I thought well thats a accident waiting to happen. He had it on a long leash part of the time and it jumped up each time the train slowed down or stopped. Went up and down the isles sniffing everyone in the isle seats hands then when the train started moving again it went back and laid at the guys feet. He only rode 3 or 4 stops and got off.....no accidents but he said as he walked past when getting off....She is ready to get off this train.

Classic example of a poorly trained service animal. A properly trained service animal would have been taken on the train during training to acclimate her to the noises and smells of the train. Furthermore, a working dog should not be goofing off or playing by going up and down aisles and sniffing everyone. It should be resting and alert by the person it assists ready to provide assistive service. Period.

On another topic, I have been on only one plane flight that I can think of with a dog in the cabin. While it was not a service dog, it was a working dog (military K9). Despite being a large dog, it settled at the trainer's feet the entire flight and I barely heard a peep out of it.

Taking a pet, as opposed to a well-trained, working dog on any sort of long journey is a recipe for problems.

To those who acted incredulous at the notion of pets interacting, possibly in a negative way, with other patrons, may I ask you one question? Have you ever worked in the passenger transport industry?

 

[Bus Nut]

I am desperately allergic to perfume, but there is no law against people who are overly perfumed on Amtrak, at the airport, on buses, etc. I have to suffer through it, hives and all, so the "allergy" thing is complete bunk. That's not a good enough reason not to have pets on trains. There can be separate cars, ventilation, etc.

Allergies is not what instituted the ban; that was animal welfare legislation and the state of Amtrak equipment at the time.

In the meantime, Amtrak has had its budget scrutinized by Congress continually and numerous onboard positions cut.

Amtrak doesn't have the resources to clean up after pets midroute. A really messy mess could lead to a very costly service interruption.

And many more Americans are being diagnosed with allergies today, so it will be an issue going forward. Most of the US agencies that allow pets only allow them in hard or soft side carriers, so less dander is spread. Also, many of these properties have fiberglass or vinyl seats, though not all.

As for perfume, I had respiratory trouble after my car attendant on a recent trip "freshened" my cabin with some sort of spray. These problems are mostly caused by VOCs--volatile (that means gaseous) organic compounds. There is a big push in Europe to regulate VOCs and reduce them. I couldn't ride the Acela when it was new without getting violently ill because of outgassing VOCs from the upholstery. Fortunately, Americans are wising up about this, too. For example, VOCs are being reduced in building construction (latex paint is one example) after going crazy in the 80s and 90s.

Many perfumes contain some truly noxious petroleum derivatives that are probably unsafe to everyone, although only about a third of the population will have an immediate reaction. The best hope would be to pressure Congress to expand the FDA's authority to regulate cosmetics and start eliminating unsafe ingredients. (Did you know that Consumer's Union once again tested popular red lipsticks and found toxic metals in most of them?) Right now there is some regulation but the system is extremely lax and doesn't track the current science. Nor do new ingredients have to be tested for safety prior to rollout if they are not used for food or pills.

 

[Bus Nut]

airlines are already doing this. why is amtrak such a pain??? if people are willing to pay, then there should be a market for it!

Airlines are a for-profit business. (Not to say that they're making a profit, because it appears that despite a raft of indirect subsidies, they must apply for bankrupcy protection frequently.)

This bill is nothing more than an unfunded mandate. It's even more shocking since Amtrak has been hit by sequester cuts. Where is the funding for this grand plan?

 

[Ispolkom]

This bill is nothing more than an unfunded mandate. It's even more shocking since Amtrak has been hit by sequester cuts. Where is the funding for this grand plan?

What's shocking about Congress imposing an unfunded mandate? What funding did Amtrak get for the gun bin luggage carts at every station required after Congress required that Amtrak transport firearms? As far as I can see Congress exists in large part to impose unfunded mandates, and to make people doubt the principles of democracy.

 

[D.P. Roberts]

On another topic, I have been on only one plane flight that I can think of with a dog in the cabin.

I once flew on a plane with some penguins in the cabin.

I do not believe they were service penguins, but they were very well behaved. Never uttered a peep.

 

[zephyr17]

On another topic, I have been on only one plane flight that I can think of with a dog in the cabin.

I once flew on a plane with some penguins in the cabin.

I do not believe they were service penguins, but they were very well behaved. Never uttered a peep.

And they say penguins don't fly! :giggle:

 

[Ryan]

They do after getting swept!

 

[Bob Dylan]

They do after getting swept!

:giggle: :giggle: :giggle:

 

[Texan Eagle]

On another topic, I have been on only one plane flight that I can think of with a dog in the cabin.

I once flew on a plane with some penguins in the cabin.

I do not believe they were service penguins, but they were very well behaved. Never uttered a peep.

And they say penguins don't fly! :giggle:

Southwest Airlines. Bags (and penguins) Fly Free!

 

[crescent2]

Well, they've got to get to opening night somehow.

 

[dziadzu]

This may have been said already but the bill to allow dogs on Amtrak trains is H.R. 2066, the Pets on Trains Act of 2013. I am strongly opposed to this bill and will be writing my representatives about it.

 

[oldtimer]

I was on an Amtrak train once that had 20+ hawks onboard, in the passenger compartment!

It was the Chicago BlackHawks!!!

:giggle: