Amtrak ONLY Rail Transit to Not Allow Pets!

[Shanghai]

I do not understand the pet fetish, no matter what. I have two cats... other than to the vet, they go nowhere with me. Some people find cats offensive; I generally find dogs offensive, no matter the breed.

What also troubles me is this sense of entitlement, particularly among pet owners. For instance, I live in a city where pets of all sorts are NOT allowed in restaurants or anywhere food is served (another reason why Amtrak won't allow pets). I was at a restaurant one morning for my bagel and coffee, and a couple walked in, followed by their dog (on a leash, at least). I told them that it was illegal to do that and they took offense, the wife saying, "we let our dog in the kitchen of our house; why not here." I immediately called the local police and they were johnny on the spot issuing a citation to the couple, and to the restaurant. The manager was fired within an hour for allowing it.

You must be proud.

I don't see anything worng with what he did.

If you find dogs in restaurants offensive, do not go to Europe!!

Dogs are permitted, actually invited, into restaurants. When we

lived in the Netherlands, most restaurants brought a dish of water

for the dogs. Same is true for France, Germany, Austria and Belgium.

 

[me_little_me]

If you find dogs in restaurants offensive, do not go to Europe!!

Dogs are permitted, actually invited, into restaurants. When we

lived in the Netherlands, most restaurants brought a dish of water

for the dogs. Same is true for France, Germany, Austria and Belgium.

Why? I don't think allowing dogs in restaurants is a good idea. Just like I don't think that it was particularly sanitary of Holland pastry shop owners to simply brush away wasps in the pastry cases. Just like I dislike the European reluctance to truly stop smoking or clean their graffiti. But it hasn't stopped my going there 14 times. Nor has it affected my visiting countries with a different sanitary standard regarding bathroom cleanliness. However, I don't live there. If I had, I would fight to change the laws. But I don't. However, I do respect their culture and habits so as a visitor, I don't say anything there.

Europe is a wonderful place to visit but like their justifiable criticism of some of our Americanisms, we do not have to accept their quirks without criticizing yet we can both visit each others' countries and smile while cringing inside.

Here where law prohibits pets in restaurants, it should be respected and obeyed just as one should respect and obeys laws against smoking in such places.

To bring this discussion back to the original posting, Amtrak has legitimate reasons to ban pets. There may be alternatives and I am sure they considered but rejected them because of potential problems. The rules are known. The consequences are known. Changing those rules should be done by appealing to Amtrak management not by violating the rule or cheating or lying to Amtrak regarding one's pet.

 

[Goat'sHeadSoup]

It's Against the FDA rules to allow animals other then service dogs into a food establishment. Managers can be fired for ignoring problems. Like this one were this fry cook at a fast food place took a bath during the shift in the dish-washing sink and his co-workers video-taped it and the manager ignored it. Well the FDA fired everyone from the shift including the shift manager and they had to disinfect and sanitize the entire kitchen.

FDA can't fire anyone. Local health inspectors can close a place for a violation, but that's not even reported to the FDA. Where on earth did you get that bit of information? Or is it purely supposition?

 

[Goat'sHeadSoup]

I do not understand the pet fetish, no matter what. I have two cats... other than to the vet, they go nowhere with me. Some people find cats offensive; I generally find dogs offensive, no matter the breed.

What also troubles me is this sense of entitlement, particularly among pet owners. For instance, I live in a city where pets of all sorts are NOT allowed in restaurants or anywhere food is served (another reason why Amtrak won't allow pets). I was at a restaurant one morning for my bagel and coffee, and a couple walked in, followed by their dog (on a leash, at least). I told them that it was illegal to do that and they took offense, the wife saying, "we let our dog in the kitchen of our house; why not here." I immediately called the local police and they were johnny on the spot issuing a citation to the couple, and to the restaurant. The manager was fired within an hour for allowing it.

You must be proud.

I don't see anything worng with what he did.

If you find dogs in restaurants offensive, do not go to Europe!!

Dogs are permitted, actually invited, into restaurants. When we

lived in the Netherlands, most restaurants brought a dish of water

for the dogs. Same is true for France, Germany, Austria and Belgium.

I go to Europe a lot. Europeans look at life differently than how we do and vice versa. Neither is wrong or right. I don't like pets in restaurants there anymore than I do here, but I put up with it in Europe because "them's the rules." Here, no so much.

 

[Goat'sHeadSoup]

I do not understand the pet fetish, no matter what. I have two cats... other than to the vet, they go nowhere with me. Some people find cats offensive; I generally find dogs offensive, no matter the breed.

What also troubles me is this sense of entitlement, particularly among pet owners. For instance, I live in a city where pets of all sorts are NOT allowed in restaurants or anywhere food is served (another reason why Amtrak won't allow pets). I was at a restaurant one morning for my bagel and coffee, and a couple walked in, followed by their dog (on a leash, at least). I told them that it was illegal to do that and they took offense, the wife saying, "we let our dog in the kitchen of our house; why not here." I immediately called the local police and they were johnny on the spot issuing a citation to the couple, and to the restaurant. The manager was fired within an hour for allowing it.

You must be proud.

Sure am. Besides, it's part of the health code, no matter what dog/cat owners think or want to believe. As I said, I have two cats and would never inflict them on anyone who didn't like cats. I don't like dogs... and I don't want them inflicted on me.

 

[leemell]

I do not understand the pet fetish, no matter what. I have two cats... other than to the vet, they go nowhere with me. Some people find cats offensive; I generally find dogs offensive, no matter the breed.

What also troubles me is this sense of entitlement, particularly among pet owners. For instance, I live in a city where pets of all sorts are NOT allowed in restaurants or anywhere food is served (another reason why Amtrak won't allow pets). I was at a restaurant one morning for my bagel and coffee, and a couple walked in, followed by their dog (on a leash, at least). I told them that it was illegal to do that and they took offense, the wife saying, "we let our dog in the kitchen of our house; why not here." I immediately called the local police and they were johnny on the spot issuing a citation to the couple, and to the restaurant. The manager was fired within an hour for allowing it.

You must be proud.

Sure am. Besides, it's part of the health code, no matter what dog/cat owners think or want to believe. As I said, I have two cats and would never inflict them on anyone who didn't like cats. I don't like dogs... and I don't want them inflicted on me.

I am a dog owner (for 30+ years), but he is right. Where Health Code says no animals, there should be no animals. There is no special entitlement for dogs and those people should have been cited for the infraction. Where animals are allowed in restaurants, by all means, bring them in. When in Europe, we were delighted to find well behaved dogs under the tables around us.

 

[A.J.]

I ADORE my dog and have taken a lot of day trips with her. however, if it were offered, I would not take her on an amtrak long-distance trip. I wouldn't want to have to constantly worry about when i was going to be able to take her out to walk or go to the bathroom. moreover, she is an older dog and sometimes has "accidents". think about it this way: do you want to sit in a seat or be in a roomette where an animal might have had such an "accident"?

 

[Linda T]

Has anyone been following the posts on Amtrak's FB page about the lady who was refused passage because she had her service dog with her? Corey L Bracken wrote: "I am in need of friends and help right now I was just refused service at Amtack with my medical documentation (yes I offered this information willingly)because of my service animal please call these 800-872--7245...and call KATU Newsroom at 503.231.4264 THIS IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW." Based on the station ID and the area code, I'd say this happened near Portland. She also indicated in one of her numerous posts that she was in Spokane Valley, WA when her avatar was taken (so she does seem to be from the NW).

Another post Corey states, "I have my medical documentation and my animal has already been to the Social Security office in Boulder, CO, numerous hospitals and in the records it states that my animal remains calm and collected, as well as having flown 8500 miles since Jan, 2200 miles via greyhound, (though I can document further if needed) and I would not judge someone by their photo for you never know the circumstances of which it was taken (given the photo is not inappropriate) NUFF SAID!!!" Monday at 1:57pm I called on her again to identify what her dog does that makes him a service dog and got the following reply:

"the conductor tried telling me that my animal was a companion animal and not a physical service animal and that I was not riding his train, and told me that if I did not comply with taking a refund that he would call the police and have me removed, I was told by a Mike Dwyer of Amtrak that he would call me back by yesterday, he told me that on Thursday of last week, my animal alerts to a brain condition that I have if you must know Ms. Trent, as well as carrying items for me, assists with pulling my manual wheelchair of which I utilize as a walker in the summer, and actually use it as a chair in the colder months, and I will be the first one to admit it I am mentally dependent on those things, but what happens when you drive a manual car for a while and then switch to an automatic transmission, you are mentally looking for that clutch...maybe a bad analogy but I think not. I told Amtrak what my canine does for me, as I offered up my medical documentation, and have their employee recorded telling me that my animal is one of the best that he has seen come through his station and that the conductor was being indifferent because my dog is larger. I accidentally recorded that but I recorded the phone conversation with the lady I was speaking with, and I her permission, to do so, and in that conversation I was told I would receive a call back with in 10 minutes, and that call back has yet to happen. Now the laws just changed March 15 ish, and Amtrak obviously did not educate their employees properly, given the video evidence and recorded calls I will go ahead and file this with the FRA and the USDOT, ONCE AGAIN I HAD MY MEDICAL DOCUMENTATION AND HAVE MOST OF THE SITUATION AT LEAST AUDIBL,Y RECORDED I WILL POST BOTH THE PHONE CALLS(in segments if need be), and the conversations to youtube and gladly add the links to this post if need be..." Yesterday at 2:33pm bold/underline my emphasis.

Dunno, but it looks pretty legit. Thoughts? BTW, if you go to Amtrak's FB page there are about four or five seperate posts that Corey started. I took the most relevant and most informative posts and put them here.

 

[jebr]

Has anyone been following the posts on Amtrak's FB page about the lady who was refused passage because she had her service dog with her? Corey L Bracken wrote: "I am in need of friends and help right now I was just refused service at Amtack with my medical documentation (yes I offered this information willingly)because of my service animal please call these 800-872--7245...and call KATU Newsroom at 503.231.4264 THIS IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW." Based on the station ID and the area code, I'd say this happened near Portland. She also indicated in one of her numerous posts that she was in Spokane Valley, WA when her avatar was taken (so she does seem to be from the NW).

Another post Corey states, "I have my medical documentation and my animal has already been to the Social Security office in Boulder, CO, numerous hospitals and in the records it states that my animal remains calm and collected, as well as having flown 8500 miles since Jan, 2200 miles via greyhound, (though I can document further if needed) and I would not judge someone by their photo for you never know the circumstances of which it was taken (given the photo is not inappropriate) NUFF SAID!!!" Monday at 1:57pm I called on her again to identify what her dog does that makes him a service dog and got the following reply:

"the conductor tried telling me that my animal was a companion animal and not a physical service animal and that I was not riding his train, and told me that if I did not comply with taking a refund that he would call the police and have me removed, I was told by a Mike Dwyer of Amtrak that he would call me back by yesterday, he told me that on Thursday of last week, my animal alerts to a brain condition that I have if you must know Ms. Trent, as well as carrying items for me, assists with pulling my manual wheelchair of which I utilize as a walker in the summer, and actually use it as a chair in the colder months, and I will be the first one to admit it I am mentally dependent on those things, but what happens when you drive a manual car for a while and then switch to an automatic transmission, you are mentally looking for that clutch...maybe a bad analogy but I think not. I told Amtrak what my canine does for me, as I offered up my medical documentation, and have their employee recorded telling me that my animal is one of the best that he has seen come through his station and that the conductor was being indifferent because my dog is larger. I accidentally recorded that but I recorded the phone conversation with the lady I was speaking with, and I her permission, to do so, and in that conversation I was told I would receive a call back with in 10 minutes, and that call back has yet to happen. Now the laws just changed March 15 ish, and Amtrak obviously did not educate their employees properly, given the video evidence and recorded calls I will go ahead and file this with the FRA and the USDOT, ONCE AGAIN I HAD MY MEDICAL DOCUMENTATION AND HAVE MOST OF THE SITUATION AT LEAST AUDIBL,Y RECORDED I WILL POST BOTH THE PHONE CALLS(in segments if need be), and the conversations to youtube and gladly add the links to this post if need be..." Yesterday at 2:33pm bold/underline my emphasis.

Dunno, but it looks pretty legit. Thoughts? BTW, if you go to Amtrak's FB page there are about four or five seperate posts that Corey started. I took the most relevant and most informative posts and put them here.

From this part:

"my animal alerts to a brain condition that I have if you must know Ms. Trent, as well as carrying items for me, assists with pulling my manual wheelchair of which I utilize as a walker in the summer, and actually use it as a chair in the colder months "

The key is that the animal performs physical functions for him, not merely provide emotional support. I would presume that it would fall under the revised ADA requirements for service animals:

http://www.ada.gov/service_animals_2010.htm

 

[Lisa]

Agreed. I believe that sometime shortly after the formation of Amtrak, the USDA (or perhaps some other agency with similar jurisdiction) issued regulations for common carriers transporting animals which Amtrak found to be overly burdensome....minimum/maximum allowable temperatures (baggage cars are not air conditioned), rest and exercise breaks (and the liability for handling animals during them, not to mention delay of trains while these breaks occurred) and other such. The upshot was that Amtrak declined to carry animals any longer, unless those animals were trained service animals cared for by the passenger. However, one loophole which has been discussed here previously is that Amtrak will not ask for any certification or proof that the animal has been specially trained or even what disability the passenger is claiming; they will take the owner's word that it is a "trained service animal" and allow it aboard to be cared for by the passenger.

Not quite. And your posting sounds like an encouragement to cheat the system which can result in the pet and/or owner subject to involuntary removal.

From the Amtrak Standards Manual:

3. Determining If An Animal Is A Service Animal – "Is This Your Pet"

a) Physical Indicators – Look for physical indicators on the animal. Some service animals wear harnesses, vests, capes or backpacks. Markings on these items or on the animal's tags may identify it as a service animal. The absence of such equipment however, does not necessarily mean the animal is not a service animal.

b) Observation – Observe the animal's behavior. Service animals are trained to behave properly in public settings. For example, a properly trained guide dog will not run around the station, bark or growl at other passengers, or bite or jump on people.

• Some service animals provide assistance or perform specific services.

• Service animals are not pets; they are working animals that are specifically trained to provide assistance for individuals who have disabilities.

• Some service animals can help a person by pulling a wheelchair, fetching dropped items, handling money, carrying bags, opening doors or assisting a person with a visual impairment.

• Some service animals serve as seizureresponse/alert animals for people with seizure disorders or alert individuals with impaired hearing to intruders or sounds.

c) Is This Your Pet

Credible verbal assurances is needed from the passenger that the animal is a service animal. The way to do this:

• Ask the passenger, "Is this your pet?"

If the passenger responds that the animal is a service animal and not a pet, but uncertainty remains about the animal, you may ask appropriate follow up questions.

• Ask the passenger, "What tasks or functions does your animal perform for you?" or "What has it been trained to do for you?"

The passenger must respond that the animal acts as a guide, notifies of a seizures, etc.

 

Service Standards Manual No. 6 11-13

11-14 Assisting Passengers with Disabilities

Employees may not ask the passenger what his/her disability is or the cause of the disability.

• Although there may be a few people who try to "beat the system" by bringing pets on-board the train, most passengers with disabilities claiming to have service animals really do have service animals.

• Since access for persons with disabilities traveling with service animals is a civil right covered under the ADA, employees should err on the side of caution by permitting access to passenger areas. If the animal looks like a service animal and the customer says it is a service animal welcome the animal aboard.

d) Not a Service Animal

• If an animal is determined not to be a service animal or if the service animal poses a direct threat to others, the animal can be denied access to Amtrak premises.

• On the rare occasion that an animal has to be excluded from Amtrak premises, you should handle the situation in a polite and professional manner.

• When an animal is excluded from Amtrak premises while en route, the employee making this decision must complete a "Passenger Incident Report" (NRPC 3200) detailing the incident.

It's actually illegal by Federal Law to ask someone what their disability is. It's technically illegal for Amtrak to therefor ask you what your dogs 'special service' is.

Also I had to assemble a trumpet to leave this post. Amtrak is absurd. If there was another way to make my twice monthly commute from NY to DC I'd do so. Delta shuttle you've got my back, right?

 

[stntylr]

One of my favorite pictures taken aboard the Texas Eagle back in August.

 

[Anthony]

Also I had to assemble a trumpet to leave this post. Amtrak is absurd. If there was another way to make my twice monthly commute from NY to DC I'd do so. Delta shuttle you've got my back, right?

LOL!

The trumpet you assembled is what gave you the ability to post here at all without signing up for a membership on this forum, which, by the way, is independently owned and operated. Without that trumpet, we would not be able to allow guest posting due to heavy spam.

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

Also I had to assemble a trumpet to leave this post. Amtrak is absurd. If there was another way to make my twice monthly commute from NY to DC I'd do so. Delta shuttle you've got my back, right?

ROFL, this is too funny! This forum is not Amtrak. It's good enough that you can post as a guest here, many forums don't allow that. But the trumpet? It's such a common tool to prevent automated posting I can't believe it's remotely absurd!

 

[AlanB]

It's good enough that you can post as a guest here, many forums don't allow that. But the trumpet? It's such a common tool to prevent automated posting I can't believe it's remotely absurd!

The spammer bots have all figured out how to read the CAPTCHA codes that many places currently use, despite the best efforts of those trying to program the CAPTCHA and still manage to leave it readable to a human. So we're now using a new form that picks various common images, and then like a jigsaw puzzle, one must assemble the pieces to create the image.

So far its working really well and guests no longer even need to wait for a moderator to approve their posts. How long that lasts is anyone's guess. But at least for now it's working really well and making the job so much easier for the staff.

 

[Henry Kisor]

I am geezer and my fine motor skills are fading, so assembling those damn trumpets and oranges and whatnot with a mouse can be a bit of a challenge, but the scheme DOES work better than captcha, which is not barring spammers from my blogs very well anymore.

 

[AmtrakBlue]

Wonder if you're going to get a lot of members signing on as guests just to see the puzzles? I'll try to resist.

Thanks for explaining the trumpet because I had no idea what the poster was talking about.

 

[Nathanael]

Agreed. I believe that sometime shortly after the formation of Amtrak, the USDA (or perhaps some other agency with similar jurisdiction) issued regulations for common carriers transporting animals which Amtrak found to be overly burdensome....minimum/maximum allowable temperatures (baggage cars are not air conditioned), rest and exercise breaks (and the liability for handling animals during them, not to mention delay of trains while these breaks occurred) and other such.

I'd like to see a reference to those regulations, if they really exist.

Intercity trains in the entire rest of the world allow people to take pets (in enclosed carriers, of course), often with restrictions. Amtrak's policy is abnormal and not reasonable, and I say this as someone who doesn't like pets. Amtrak's official policies prohibit carrying a *fish in a fish carrier*, which certainly can't get loose; this is truly unique.

I wouldn't even complain if Amtrak had a "no pets on runs longer than 4 hours" rule, even though Russian trains can handle that. But Amtrak has a blanket rule.

 

[Nathanael]

The jigsaw puzzle captcha is OK, but the "match the picture to the category" one is a disaster, and the pictures are impossible to match about half the time. Is there any way you can turn that off and have only jigsaw puzzles?

 

[Nathanael]

It's Against the FDA rules to allow animals other then service dogs into a food establishment.

Wildly untrue. Think of the live lobsters at places which serve lobster...

The rules are a lot more specific than you think.

 

[Anthony]

The jigsaw puzzle captcha is OK, but the "match the picture to the category" one is a disaster, and the pictures are impossible to match about half the time. Is there any way you can turn that off and have only jigsaw puzzles?

Well, Nathanael. The solution is to register as a member, for Pete's sake. Guest posting is intended for the occasional or first-time user, not someone like yourself who posts every single day. Sign up, or else take what you can get -- the current solution is working wonders for our spam management.

 

[AlanB]

I am geezer and my fine motor skills are fading, so assembling those damn trumpets and oranges and whatnot with a mouse can be a bit of a challenge, but the scheme DOES work better than captcha, which is not barring spammers from my blogs very well anymore.

Henry,

You are actually a registered member here; so if you sign in then you don't have to worry about putting together a trumpet. If you're having trouble signing into your account or have forgotten your password, please let me know and I can help you out.

 

[Williamn]

I have to admit I haven't read the whole of this thread but just to throw in that in the UK pets are carried on all trains aside from Eurostar. Even sleeper trains - on payment of a hefty cleaning fee. I've never found it to be a problem

 

[TraneMan]

I'm a pet lover, but to me, they stay home!

I would not want a dog next to me making noise or in the way.

At our last family reunion, seems like everyone who had pets brought them, ugh! Dad wasn't happy with the gifts that the dogs left behind....

 

[Swadian Hardcore]

I'm a pet lover, but to me, they stay home!

I would not want a dog next to me making noise or in the way.

At our last family reunion, seems like everyone who had pets brought them, ugh! Dad wasn't happy with the gifts that the dogs left behind....

Totally agree!

 

[zepherdude]

Have seen lots of pros and no's. I have to be a no. That was a cute picture above with the doggie in the car, but unless its a short trip, where will he do his business? How will he walk? Pet porters are not the answer and certainly going to care for them in the baggage car is not an option. I see pets now everywhere, grocery stores, shopping malls and even in the drivers seat. I board my dog in a kennel when I am out of town, she does not like it, neither do I, but life will go on. Years ago, my mom insisted she take a small dog on a trip to a friends house. I resisted, she insisted. There were cats in the house. She won and and upon arrival a cat jumped out of our host arms, scratched her face, drawing blood, I had to take her to the hospital in a chilly trip and the eventual end of a friendship. What can I say, my pet is not your pet. I agree "No pets on the train". One rule must apply.