Amtrak Passenger services may return to the Gulf Coast

[Caesar La Rock]

Well since this is here might as well post these.

http://www.wctv.tv/news/headlines/Tallahassee_and_Leon_County_officials_140573383.html?storySection=story

http://www.narprail.org/index.php/get-involved/action-alerts/1993-tell-your-congressmen-to-work-for-more-amtrak-restore-the-sunset-limited

 

[johnny.menhennet]

The Gulf Breeze was the extension of the Crescent that split at Birmingham and went to Montgomery and Mobile. In the last full year of operation, a whopping 7,737 rode the train - IN A YEAR! That same train had coaches, a sleeper, a lounge, and a diner. I'm not impressed.

The Gulf Coast Limited was the name of the train that in two incarnations, served the communities between New Orleans and Mobile. I agree that if a second train from the NEC-NOL were added to the system, it would be better to split at Atlanta and go to Montgomery from there rather than splitting at Birmingham.

The name Gulf Wind was used for a NOL-JAX service on SAL and L&N that ran up until A-day, but was never actually used by an Amtrak train.

 

[Anderson]

I'm going to confess...I really see this as a non-priority for Amtrak. In fact, one of my beefs with NARP is their insistence on focusing on this train. Really, the Sunset East seems to me to be "activist flypaper" at the present (i.e. it's keeping folks busy doing something rather useless)...it's a train that as far as I can tell carried less than 60,000 passengers in 2004 (the last full year of operations).

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the Sunset East restored...after a bunch of other trains get added/extended/beefed up, such as re-extending the Palmetto/Silver Palm to Miami, expanding capacity on just about any LD train pushing its limits now, or adding frequencies on routes such as those in Virginia.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

I'm going to confess...I really see this as a non-priority for Amtrak. In fact, one of my beefs with NARP is their insistence on focusing on this train. Really, the Sunset East seems to me to be "activist flypaper" at the present (i.e. it's keeping folks busy doing something rather useless)...it's a train that as far as I can tell carried less than 60,000 passengers in 2004 (the last full year of operations).

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the Sunset East restored...after a bunch of other trains get added/extended/beefed up, such as re-extending the Palmetto/Silver Palm to Miami, expanding capacity on just about any LD train pushing its limits now, or adding frequencies on routes such as those in Virginia.

Agreed. This train carries a priority of basically zero, if that makes sense. I'm not going to go in depth on what I feel we do need, but I think a better LD train than a second NEC-NOL train would be a service from San Diego to Reno (It barely goes over the 750 mile mark and would allow an overnight on SoCal-NorCal, a Silver Palm restoration, maybe even a Denver Zephyr running during the daytime but with limited padding for a fast schedule. None of these things are really anywhere on Amtrak's radar, but they would all get more use than something that replicates a segment over which travel is light (south of NOL). The SL is already carrying more people now than it carried when the train went the entire distance to Orlando. If the Sunset East got 42% of the revenue, then I can see that it actually was not unpopular, but I would still advocate that money be spent beefing up existing services first. I agree that the Sunset East has been a lost cause since Katrina made landfall on August 29th, 2005. Many more important things are there, is what I'm saying.

 

[Anderson]

I'm going to confess...I really see this as a non-priority for Amtrak. In fact, one of my beefs with NARP is their insistence on focusing on this train. Really, the Sunset East seems to me to be "activist flypaper" at the present (i.e. it's keeping folks busy doing something rather useless)...it's a train that as far as I can tell carried less than 60,000 passengers in 2004 (the last full year of operations).

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the Sunset East restored...after a bunch of other trains get added/extended/beefed up, such as re-extending the Palmetto/Silver Palm to Miami, expanding capacity on just about any LD train pushing its limits now, or adding frequencies on routes such as those in Virginia.

Agreed. This train carries a priority of basically zero, if that makes sense. I'm not going to go in depth on what I feel we do need, but I think a better LD train than a second NEC-NOL train would be a service from San Diego to Reno (It barely goes over the 750 mile mark and would allow an overnight on SoCal-NorCal, a Silver Palm restoration, maybe even a Denver Zephyr running during the daytime but with limited padding for a fast schedule. None of these things are really anywhere on Amtrak's radar, but they would all get more use than something that replicates a segment over which travel is light (south of NOL). The SL is already carrying more people now than it carried when the train went the entire distance to Orlando. If the Sunset East got 42% of the revenue, then I can see that it actually was not unpopular, but I would still advocate that money be spent beefing up existing services first. I agree that the Sunset East has been a lost cause since Katrina made landfall on August 29th, 2005. Many more important things are there, is what I'm saying.

I've chewed over the idea of a SoCal-NorCal overnight train of some sort. I'm wondering if you couldn't make it work best by running it to Sacramento and using the segments on each end to grab a bunch of "upsold" non-commuter rush hour traffic seeking guaranteed seats? San Diego-LAX and Sacramento-San Jose should generate a decent amount of traffic if you time it right, and I think SAC-San Diego would be timed so that you could use two sets of equipment (an extension to Reno, while not a bad idea, would require lots more equipment I think).

 

[user 1215]

I sort of agree. But there needs to be a better way of connecting to the West from the SE without having to go through DC.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

I'm going to confess...I really see this as a non-priority for Amtrak. In fact, one of my beefs with NARP is their insistence on focusing on this train. Really, the Sunset East seems to me to be "activist flypaper" at the present (i.e. it's keeping folks busy doing something rather useless)...it's a train that as far as I can tell carried less than 60,000 passengers in 2004 (the last full year of operations).

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the Sunset East restored...after a bunch of other trains get added/extended/beefed up, such as re-extending the Palmetto/Silver Palm to Miami, expanding capacity on just about any LD train pushing its limits now, or adding frequencies on routes such as those in Virginia.

Agreed. This train carries a priority of basically zero, if that makes sense. I'm not going to go in depth on what I feel we do need, but I think a better LD train than a second NEC-NOL train would be a service from San Diego to Reno (It barely goes over the 750 mile mark and would allow an overnight on SoCal-NorCal, a Silver Palm restoration, maybe even a Denver Zephyr running during the daytime but with limited padding for a fast schedule. None of these things are really anywhere on Amtrak's radar, but they would all get more use than something that replicates a segment over which travel is light (south of NOL). The SL is already carrying more people now than it carried when the train went the entire distance to Orlando. If the Sunset East got 42% of the revenue, then I can see that it actually was not unpopular, but I would still advocate that money be spent beefing up existing services first. I agree that the Sunset East has been a lost cause since Katrina made landfall on August 29th, 2005. Many more important things are there, is what I'm saying.

I've chewed over the idea of a SoCal-NorCal overnight train of some sort. I'm wondering if you couldn't make it work best by running it to Sacramento and using the segments on each end to grab a bunch of "upsold" non-commuter rush hour traffic seeking guaranteed seats? San Diego-LAX and Sacramento-San Jose should generate a decent amount of traffic if you time it right, and I think SAC-San Diego would be timed so that you could use two sets of equipment (an extension to Reno, while not a bad idea, would require lots more equipment I think).

I agree. I came up with some potential schedules a few months back, with something like a 9 hour turn in San Diego and only 2 in Reno. I know that is unrealistic, but I wanted the times in the Bay Area to be reasonable. Sacramento would probably be better, but the problem is that it is not quite at 750 miles, and who know if California wants to pay for that too.

 

[Anderson]

I'm going to confess...I really see this as a non-priority for Amtrak. In fact, one of my beefs with NARP is their insistence on focusing on this train. Really, the Sunset East seems to me to be "activist flypaper" at the present (i.e. it's keeping folks busy doing something rather useless)...it's a train that as far as I can tell carried less than 60,000 passengers in 2004 (the last full year of operations).

Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see the Sunset East restored...after a bunch of other trains get added/extended/beefed up, such as re-extending the Palmetto/Silver Palm to Miami, expanding capacity on just about any LD train pushing its limits now, or adding frequencies on routes such as those in Virginia.

Agreed. This train carries a priority of basically zero, if that makes sense. I'm not going to go in depth on what I feel we do need, but I think a better LD train than a second NEC-NOL train would be a service from San Diego to Reno (It barely goes over the 750 mile mark and would allow an overnight on SoCal-NorCal, a Silver Palm restoration, maybe even a Denver Zephyr running during the daytime but with limited padding for a fast schedule. None of these things are really anywhere on Amtrak's radar, but they would all get more use than something that replicates a segment over which travel is light (south of NOL). The SL is already carrying more people now than it carried when the train went the entire distance to Orlando. If the Sunset East got 42% of the revenue, then I can see that it actually was not unpopular, but I would still advocate that money be spent beefing up existing services first. I agree that the Sunset East has been a lost cause since Katrina made landfall on August 29th, 2005. Many more important things are there, is what I'm saying.

I've chewed over the idea of a SoCal-NorCal overnight train of some sort. I'm wondering if you couldn't make it work best by running it to Sacramento and using the segments on each end to grab a bunch of "upsold" non-commuter rush hour traffic seeking guaranteed seats? San Diego-LAX and Sacramento-San Jose should generate a decent amount of traffic if you time it right, and I think SAC-San Diego would be timed so that you could use two sets of equipment (an extension to Reno, while not a bad idea, would require lots more equipment I think).

I agree. I came up with some potential schedules a few months back, with something like a 9 hour turn in San Diego and only 2 in Reno. I know that is unrealistic, but I wanted the times in the Bay Area to be reasonable. Sacramento would probably be better, but the problem is that it is not quite at 750 miles, and who know if California wants to pay for that too.

Well, I think CA would probably be pressed to pay for such a train anyway...IIRC, they had to spring for some of the money for the Spirit of California (though I don't recall if that went to San Diego as well as Reno). With that said, a Sacramento-San Diego run would allow both the Bay Area and the LA area to be hit around rush hour, giving a nice shot of "peak" business to the train. In an ideal world, you'd also be able to split the train at San Jose and run a section into San Francisco (to be a direct counterpart to the Coast Daylight).

As to the issue of getting to Florida from Texas without going to DC, my preference would be an Atlanta-Miami or Atlanta-Savannah train timed for either the NB or SB Crescent.

 

[henryj]

As to the issue of getting to Florida from Texas without going to DC, my preference would be an Atlanta-Miami or Atlanta-Savannah train timed for either the NB or SB Crescent.

Good option. Atlanta needs some north/south connections. My vote would be for a Memphis-Birmingham-Atlanta-Jacksonville train on a schedule similar to the old Frisco KC-Florida Special. This would give Atlanta connections north to Chicago via the CONO and south to Florida. It would connect in both directions with the Crescent to NOL giving Texas and the southwest a connection to Florida. At Jacksonville it would connect with the Florida trains going south. Use all single level equipment from the new order when they come in. Convert the CONO back to single level also, freeing up badly needed superliners for the western trains. Run through cars Chicago to Miami. Make these trains do some work and serve multiple markets.

 

[Donctor]

The Gulf Breeze was the extension of the Crescent that split at Birmingham and went to Montgomery and Mobile. In the last full year of operation, a whopping 7,737 rode the train - IN A YEAR! That same train had coaches, a sleeper, a lounge, and a diner. I'm not impressed.

Well, for a train that ran with two coaches and a lounge, and served a minuscule population when compared to the trunk (especially north of ATL), it's not that bad. Pretty bad, yes. Abysmal, no.

 

[George Harris]

As to the issue of getting to Florida from Texas without going to DC, my preference would be an Atlanta-Miami or Atlanta-Savannah train timed for either the NB or SB Crescent.

Good option. Atlanta needs some north/south connections. My vote would be for a Memphis-Birmingham-Atlanta-Jacksonville train on a schedule similar to the old Frisco KC-Florida Special. This would give Atlanta connections north to Chicago via the CONO and south to Florida. It would connect in both directions with the Crescent to NOL giving Texas and the southwest a connection to Florida. At Jacksonville it would connect with the Florida trains going south. Use all single level equipment from the new order when they come in. Convert the CONO back to single level also, freeing up badly needed superliners for the western trains. Run through cars Chicago to Miami. Make these trains do some work and serve multiple markets.

Even though the KC-Fla Special never exactly set the world on fire, think around 12 hours between Memphis and Atlanta, while with the essentially interstate highway standard US78 plus I-20 you could now drive it in aroud 7 hours, the route does make for good connectivity.

The Memphis-B'ham eastbound schedule of the KC-Fla Special of abut 5h45m seemed to have been a little too optomistic even in 1960, but the westbound schedule of right at 6 1/2 hours should be about what could still be done on the line.

The current schedules of the City of New Orleans and the Crescent work out fairly well for a nice connection with a Memphis to B'ham train. Think leaving Memphis about 7:00am eastbound, getting to B'ham about 1:30. In the other direction, leaving B'ham about 1:00pm, getting to Memphis about 7:30pm. I am thinking through cars here.

Atlanta south should be leaving around 10:00 pm with the return getting in around 7;30 am.

While trips using these stitched together connections would be hours slower than those possible in the early 1960's at least they would be possible.

 

[Anderson]

As to the issue of getting to Florida from Texas without going to DC, my preference would be an Atlanta-Miami or Atlanta-Savannah train timed for either the NB or SB Crescent.

Good option. Atlanta needs some north/south connections. My vote would be for a Memphis-Birmingham-Atlanta-Jacksonville train on a schedule similar to the old Frisco KC-Florida Special. This would give Atlanta connections north to Chicago via the CONO and south to Florida. It would connect in both directions with the Crescent to NOL giving Texas and the southwest a connection to Florida. At Jacksonville it would connect with the Florida trains going south. Use all single level equipment from the new order when they come in. Convert the CONO back to single level also, freeing up badly needed superliners for the western trains. Run through cars Chicago to Miami. Make these trains do some work and serve multiple markets.

Even though the KC-Fla Special never exactly set the world on fire, think around 12 hours between Memphis and Atlanta, while with the essentially interstate highway standard US78 plus I-20 you could now drive it in aroud 7 hours, the route does make for good connectivity.

The Memphis-B'ham eastbound schedule of the KC-Fla Special of abut 5h45m seemed to have been a little too optomistic even in 1960, but the westbound schedule of right at 6 1/2 hours should be about what could still be done on the line.

The current schedules of the City of New Orleans and the Crescent work out fairly well for a nice connection with a Memphis to B'ham train. Think leaving Memphis about 7:00am eastbound, getting to B'ham about 1:30. In the other direction, leaving B'ham about 1:00pm, getting to Memphis about 7:30pm. I am thinking through cars here.

Atlanta south should be leaving around 10:00 pm with the return getting in around 7;30 am.

While trips using these stitched together connections would be hours slower than those possible in the early 1960's at least they would be possible.

If you at least had continually accessible through cars with a power hookup and/or wi-fi available, that would take some of the edge off of things.

 

[henryj]

While trips using these stitched together connections would be hours slower than those possible in the early 1960's at least they would be possible.

Well nothing about Amtrak is setting any speed records these days, it's all about connectivity. With that connection Chicago now has through cars to Florida and Atlanta and Atlanta has connections to Chicago and the western trains and also to Florida and Texas and Louisiana now have connections to Florida. No one expects it to compete for Memphis to Birmingham driving times. You could also continue the train past Memphis to Little Rock and connect with the Eagle to DFW thus giving DFW the connections eastward to Atlanta, Wash DC, NY and Florida without having to go through Chicago. Solves the often cited Crescent Star proposals with a better schedule and better connectivity. Too bad Amtrak has lost it's creative abilities. They could do so much more with very little effort or costs.

Next question is what shall we name this new train? The Chicago/New Orleans/Crescent/Eagle/Meteor Special Star? How about the SOUTHERNER?

 

[Trogdor]

They could do so much more with very little effort or costs.

I'm curious what you think Amtrak could do (that falls into the "so much more" category) that would come with litte effort or cost.

What new route (other than any already planned/under construction) could be started at a cost that does not reach into nine figures?

What new service has the political support to not only get it started, but to fund continuing operations? The latter in particular, since PRIIA mandates that any service under 750 miles be fully supported by someone other than the federal government/Amtrak operating budget, and Amtrak has been continually under congressional mandates (particularly in the last decade, though I don't know if they still apply today) not to start any long-distance service.

So, given that, I'm really curious to know what's left that Amtrak could easily do that would cost very little money.

 

[henryj]

Even though the KC-Fla Special never exactly set the world on fire, think around 12 hours between Memphis and Atlanta, while with the essentially interstate highway standard US78 plus I-20 you could now drive it in aroud 7 hours, the route does make for good connectivity.

The Memphis-B'ham eastbound schedule of the KC-Fla Special of abut 5h45m seemed to have been a little too optomistic even in 1960, but the westbound schedule of right at 6 1/2 hours should be about what could still be done on the line.

The current schedules of the City of New Orleans and the Crescent work out fairly well for a nice connection with a Memphis to B'ham train. Think leaving Memphis about 7:00am eastbound, getting to B'ham about 1:30. In the other direction, leaving B'ham about 1:00pm, getting to Memphis about 7:30pm. I am thinking through cars here.

Atlanta south should be leaving around 10:00 pm with the return getting in around 7;30 am.

While trips using these stitched together connections would be hours slower than those possible in the early 1960's at least they would be possible.

I worked this up using old timetables and such. I more or less got the same times you did except I had it leave Atlanta around 8:30pm with an early morning arrival in Jacksonville to connect with 91 and 92 thereby making both Tampa and Miami accessible. West it leaves Jacksonville after 92 and arrives in Atlanta around 8am. That allows 9 hours for a distance of only 350 miles. Hopefully they can make that. And it's overnight so who cares about speed. It makes good connections in Memphis with 58 and 59 with a one hour layover southbound and perhaps three hours northbound. If you continue it on to Little Rock it's about a three hour layover to connect with the Eagle both ways. I did not hook it to the Crescent between Atlanta and Birmingham. Too much switching. I just had it run ahead south and behind north. Switching cars takes place in Memphis and Little Rock and Jacksonville. Interesting exercise, but of course it will never happen. We will be lucky if Amtrak even keeps what it has. They apparently want to drop diner and sleeper service south of Atlanta on the Crescent.

 

[henryj]

They could do so much more with very little effort or costs.

I'm curious what you think Amtrak could do (that falls into the "so much more" category) that would come with litte effort or cost.

What new route (other than any already planned/under construction) could be started at a cost that does not reach into nine figures?

What new service has the political support to not only get it started, but to fund continuing operations? The latter in particular, since PRIIA mandates that any service under 750 miles be fully supported by someone other than the federal government/Amtrak operating budget, and Amtrak has been continually under congressional mandates (particularly in the last decade, though I don't know if they still apply today) not to start any long-distance service.

So, given that, I'm really curious to know what's left that Amtrak could easily do that would cost very little money.

Aah yes, the nattering nabobs of negativism.

 

[Trogdor]

So, given that, I'm really curious to know what's left that Amtrak could easily do that would cost very little money.

Aah yes, the nattering nabobs of negativism.

In other words, you have no answer to my question.

 

[henryj]

So, given that, I'm really curious to know what's left that Amtrak could easily do that would cost very little money.

Aah yes, the nattering nabobs of negativism.

In other words, you have no answer to my question.

In this world, if you don't want to do something you can find a hundred reasons why it won't work. If you have a positive attitude and a 'plan' for the future you can achieve most anything. Amtrak, unfortunately is negatory now days and we, the riding public, are the losers. Answer your own stupid questions.

 

[Anderson]

So, given that, I'm really curious to know what's left that Amtrak could easily do that would cost very little money.

Aah yes, the nattering nabobs of negativism.

In other words, you have no answer to my question.

In this world, if you don't want to do something you can find a hundred reasons why it won't work. If you have a positive attitude and a 'plan' for the future you can achieve most anything. Amtrak, unfortunately is negatory now days and we, the riding public, are the losers. Answer your own stupid questions.

Yes, and sadly, budget constraints that Amtrak does not have control over tend to be a very valid reason why a lot of things don't happen (or why things get screwed up).

 

[George Harris]

So, given that, I'm really curious to know what's left that Amtrak could easily do that would cost very little money.

Aah yes, the nattering nabobs of negativism.

In other words, you have no answer to my question.

In this world, if you don't want to do something you can find a hundred reasons why it won't work. If you have a positive attitude and a 'plan' for the future you can achieve most anything. Amtrak, unfortunately is negatory now days and we, the riding public, are the losers. Answer your own stupid questions.

Yes, and sadly, budget constraints that Amtrak does not have control over tend to be a very valid reason why a lot of things don't happen (or why things get screwed up).

I spend way too much time dealing with people whose willingness to pronounce solutions to problems is essentially inverse to their understanding of the issues involved. In a word, put up or shut up.

That siad, the lowest cost and probably greatest benefit in ridership per dollar spent would be additional frequencies on routes that currently have one train a day. I would say that the Lynchburg train is an outstanding example of that. I would think a second New York -Washington - Atlanta train would be high on the list. Set up a train that arrives in New York before 9:00am, maybe even before 8:00am, and southbound arrives in Charlotte NC at about 8:00am. A second and possibly third frequency on the Lake Shore Limited route should also do well. Given the current extra trains between NYC and Buffalo, at least one would represent only the Buffalo to Chicago additional train miles.

By the way, I said lowest cost, not no cost. Some money must be found.

 

[Trogdor]

In this world, if you don't want to do something you can find a hundred reasons why it won't work. If you have a positive attitude and a 'plan' for the future you can achieve most anything. Amtrak, unfortunately is negatory now days and we, the riding public, are the losers. Answer your own stupid questions.

You made the claim. You back it up.

 

[henryj]

I spend way too much time dealing with people whose willingness to pronounce solutions to problems is essentially inverse to their understanding of the issues involved. In a word, put up or shut up.

Well George, to answer the question would require a rambling protracted answer that would end up way off topic and would serve no purpose. I appreciate your advanced knowledge of the passenger rail market, but I live where there is little Amtrak service so I see things a bit differently than those that are blessed with ample service. If someone wants to start a string to discuss places where Amtrak service can be improved cost effectively I will be glad to contribute.

 

[Donctor]

Well George, to answer the question would require a rambling protracted answer that would end up way off topic and would serve no purpose. I appreciate your advanced knowledge of the passenger rail market, but I live where there is little Amtrak service so I see things a bit differently than those that are blessed with ample service. If someone wants to start a string to discuss places where Amtrak service can be improved cost effectively I will be glad to contribute.

Again, what low-cost changes are you talking about?

 

[henryj]

Well George, to answer the question would require a rambling protracted answer that would end up way off topic and would serve no purpose. I appreciate your advanced knowledge of the passenger rail market, but I live where there is little Amtrak service so I see things a bit differently than those that are blessed with ample service. If someone wants to start a string to discuss places where Amtrak service can be improved cost effectively I will be glad to contribute.

Again, what low-cost changes are you talking about?

I believe George has already started to answer that plus the 'new train' proposal that started this all. Do you want even more????????????

 

[Anderson]

So, given that, I'm really curious to know what's left that Amtrak could easily do that would cost very little money.

Aah yes, the nattering nabobs of negativism.

In other words, you have no answer to my question.

In this world, if you don't want to do something you can find a hundred reasons why it won't work. If you have a positive attitude and a 'plan' for the future you can achieve most anything. Amtrak, unfortunately is negatory now days and we, the riding public, are the losers. Answer your own stupid questions.

Yes, and sadly, budget constraints that Amtrak does not have control over tend to be a very valid reason why a lot of things don't happen (or why things get screwed up).

I spend way too much time dealing with people whose willingness to pronounce solutions to problems is essentially inverse to their understanding of the issues involved. In a word, put up or shut up.

That siad, the lowest cost and probably greatest benefit in ridership per dollar spent would be additional frequencies on routes that currently have one train a day. I would say that the Lynchburg train is an outstanding example of that. I would think a second New York -Washington - Atlanta train would be high on the list. Set up a train that arrives in New York before 9:00am, maybe even before 8:00am, and southbound arrives in Charlotte NC at about 8:00am. A second and possibly third frequency on the Lake Shore Limited route should also do well. Given the current extra trains between NYC and Buffalo, at least one would represent only the Buffalo to Chicago additional train miles.

By the way, I said lowest cost, not no cost. Some money must be found.

Well, and there are some "day train" operations that could be looked into (NYP-ATL comes to mind here), even if some of them end up requiring wacky stubbing to make the 750 mile rule. Another point you hint at: Some trains really lack a "mirror frequency" between major destinations. Case in point: There's really no EB train to mirror the WB Lake Shore Limited (i.e. offering at least a vaguely connectable arrival in NYP). But again, while these avoid a lot of route setup costs (building stations, for example), you've still got to pay for the train, pay for the OBS, pay for the slot, etc.