Amtrak says it will not run trains on routes without PTC

[jis]

<snip/>

The senate has just passed a huge Amtrak appropriation – possibly the biggest in Amtrak’s history. Although the House has yet to pass it, if we assume that they do, what the heck is Amtrak going to do with all that money if most of the system is gone? It makes no sense.

<snip/>

Regards,

Fred M. Cain,

Topeka, IN, NARP member

Just to comment on this particular statement: given that (per Thirdrail7) the NEC has a $40 billion dollar backlog of deferred maintenance, I don't think an LD-less Amtrak would have any trouble swallowing up a couple billion!

But, getting back to the matter at hand, has the present Amtrak management taken this into consideration? The money required to maintain the LD network is dwarfed by the infrastructure needs of the NEC, and I strongly doubt the average Congresscritter is going to support Amtrak if his/her district loses a train. The shiny new high-speed trainsets won't do any good if a Hudson tunnel floods or the Susquehanna bridge falls into the water. The historic "quid pro quo" has been that roughly half the subsidy goes to the NEC and half to the rest of Amtrak - I don't think I'd risk disturbing that.

The matter at hand of this thread BTW is PTC and train operations or not, and not what Amtrak management wants to do with LD trains in particular, since "the matter at hand" was specifically mentioned.

However, the Congresscritters know exactly what they are voting how much for since they itemize NEC funding and National funding as two separate line items, and they fund National at a level almost twice that of NEC at the present time. The real problem is Amtrak accounting and how it allocates costs, but that is being discussed elsewhere.

Even if there is no LD service, the very significant growth sector in the National account will continue to get funded at relatively high levels to support State co-funded services on corridors. So just the demise of LD trains won;t cause all National funded trains to cease operations. It is also quite unlikely that LD trains will all cease to exist either.

Frankly I think it has just be a matter of faith among rail advocates about this historic quid pro quo. If push comes to shove another one will be found and things that need to be funded will get funded and things that are a bit of a "nice to have" will fall by the wayside. It is yet to be discovered how those buckets will get populated, but one can guess that things like the NEC will be in a bucket that will get funded no matter what.

 

[cpotisch]

At best, under his "leadership," we might wind up with a weekly or twice-weekly "City of Everywhere" train with the rolling stock and amenities most of us dream about.

This seems pretty optimistic...

 

[JoeBas]

From RPA

https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/releases/amtrak-statement-refutes-trains-ptc-article/

Unfortunately, I think what just happened is that Trains Magazine just lost credibility as a source of news.

I don't see that at all. I think what happened here is Gardner got ahead of himself and "Said too much" of the plan too soon. Now the PR Flaks are walking that back.

 

[Seaboard92]

Personally I could see other companies having a field day over this. If Amtrak fumbles the ball like they've been doing companies like Herzog, Bombardier, and a few others stand to gain.

I've said it before with the Southwest Chief grant money being rescinded by Amtrak. How is a state supposed to trust Anderson and Gardner's Amtrak if they so easily break agreements with states. So if I was the state of Vermont, Maine, California, North Carolina, Michigan, Illinois, or Indiana I would be shopping for new operators for my trains.

Of course Amtrak would pull the same shenanigans again that they did with Iowa Pacific so that would make things difficult. But nothing a state DOT couldn't sort out in court.

So honestly Garnder and Anderson's leadership has made a non Amtrak future obtainable and starting to be more likely. If someone willing to play the long game knew they would have both men removed from office.

#saveamtrakfireanderson

#sendgardnerbacktohisgarden

#makeamtrakgreatagain

 

[cpotisch]

From RPA

https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/releases/amtrak-statement-refutes-trains-ptc-article/

Unfortunately, I think what just happened is that Trains Magazine just lost credibility as a source of news.

 

[NativeSon5859]

From RPA

https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/releases/amtrak-statement-refutes-trains-ptc-article/

Unfortunately, I think what just happened is that Trains Magazine just lost credibility as a source of news.

I agree 100%.

 

[jis]

From RPA

https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/releases/amtrak-statement-refutes-trains-ptc-article/

Unfortunately, I think what just happened is that Trains Magazine just lost credibility as a source of news.

I don't see that at all. I think what happened here is Gardner got ahead of himself and "Said too much" of the plan too soon. Now the PR Flaks are walking that back.

That maybe so, but there is no direct evidence of that. It is based on ones feelings about Gardner.

Trains should have given Amtrak a chance to respond to the article before publishing it. That was their mistake.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

From RPA

https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/releases/amtrak-statement-refutes-trains-ptc-article/

Unfortunately, I think what just happened is that Trains Magazine just lost credibility as a source of news.

I agree 100%.

Did they have that credibility prior to this?

 

[frequentflyer]

From RPA

https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/releases/amtrak-statement-refutes-trains-ptc-article/

Unfortunately, I think what just happened is that Trains Magazine just lost credibility as a source of news.

I agree 100%.

Did they have that credibility prior to this?

They are railfans too, who just let their emotions and biases cloud a news story. In agreement, their credibility took a major hit.

And since the mag claims to support pax rail, nice way of ingratiating the Trains Mag staff to the Amtrak's management. Further feeding Amtrak's management thoughts that railfans are the lunatic fringe.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

Sorry to disagree, but the Amtrak reply is lacking. Sure it disagrees with the Trains story, but the press release does not address the issues at hand. Amtrak still has routes with gaps in PTC. Amtrak is going to do what? We just dont know, and Amtrak is avoiding the issue.

 

[chrsjrcj]

"For those carriers and routes operating under an extension or under an FRA-approved exemption, Amtrak is performing risk analyses and developing strategies for enhancing safety on a route-by-route basis to ensure that there is a single level of safety across the Amtrak network.
"For those very limited routes where a host may not achieve an alternative schedule by year’s end, Amtrak will suspend service and may seek alternative modes of service until such routes come into compliance."

While the original Trains article may have been drawing conclusions, the fact remains that 1) Amtrak is looking at possibly discontinuing service over PTC exempt or non-PTC lines and 2) the Southwest Chief faces a very real threat of bustitution. Hopefully the language in the Senate bill can nip both of these in the bud.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

I never got the feeling that Trains magazine was all that interested in passenger rail--it seems more like a freight, short line, tourist line, etc., magazine, with a nodding pass to passenger rail in the one monthly column dedicated to it. I think perhaps the real fault was rushing something into print because the author had a deadline, instead of getting all the angles, including Amtrak's. A journalistic trend that has taken over, unfortunately, although I have usually found Bob Johnston a decent writer.

I prefer Passenger Train Journal for passenger news, but unfortunately they only publish quarterly, so can't always be up-to-date.

 

[jis]

"For those carriers and routes operating under an extension or under an FRA-approved exemption, Amtrak is performing risk analyses and developing strategies for enhancing safety on a route-by-route basis to ensure that there is a single level of safety across the Amtrak network.
"For those very limited routes where a host may not achieve an alternative schedule by year’s end, Amtrak will suspend service and may seek alternative modes of service until such routes come into compliance."

While the original Trains article may have been drawing conclusions, the fact remains that 1) Amtrak is looking at possibly discontinuing service over PTC exempt or non-PTC lines and 2) the Southwest Chief faces a very real threat of bustitution. Hopefully the language in the Senate bill can nip both of these in the bud.

You do realize of course that operating a train on a segment that is not Exempt and has not achieved an FRA Alternative Schedule certification would be illegal on Jan 1. It is not something about which Amtrak has a choice.

The only open issue is how SMS is used to handle Exempt segments, or not, where Amtrak has the potential of applying discretion available to it in a negative way.

Actually the Southwest Chief has a double whammy before even we get to the PTC Exempt issue. It is under threat (a) NMRX possibly not getting Alternative Schedule certification, (b) Funding issues not getting resolved, and after that there is the Amtrak invented PTC Exempt issue, provided Amtrak SMS analysis says that Amtrak cannot trust its systems and employees to safely operate just two of their own trains in a day with absolutely no other traffic in a safe way. That would say an incredible amount about the failure of Amtrak's management more than anything else. I would be surprised if they actually go there. I think they will spend more time dicking around with the funding thing. But of course we will see.

Meanwhile it remains true that SWC is under greater threat at this time than any other train, and we need to keep hammering the relevant members of the various legislators involved.

 

[the_traveler]

Even if some company like Pan Am Ry could operate a train that Amtrak discontinued, the BIG question is would they want to? And incur the expenses of things like equipment, stations, employees, processing tickets, etc...?

 

[Ryan]

From RPA

https://www.railpassengers.org/happening-now/news/releases/amtrak-statement-refutes-trains-ptc-article/

Unfortunately, I think what just happened is that Trains Magazine just lost credibility as a source of news.

I agree 100%.

Did they have that credibility prior to this?

They certainly know how to generate a whole bunch of page views, though. Throw out some poorly sourced story and let the cash roll in.

That isn’t to say that we should all stand aside and pretend nothing is happening, but remain enhanced and realize that your lobbying efforts are infinitely more effective when grounded in reality.

 

[jis]

Now Boardman chimes in with not an exactly stellar safety record in his regime. But hey, who remembers that crap?

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/08/28-boardman-weighs-in-on-amtraks-ptc-mandate

But the point about being able to operate without PTC quite safely specially with only two trains a day is on the mark.

Using the example of Palmetto was probably somewhat imprudent given that the type of human failure was a terrible indictment of Boardman's safety program.

 

[cpotisch]

Now Boardman chimes in with not an exactly stellar safety record in his regime. But hey, who remembers that crap?

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/08/28-boardman-weighs-in-on-amtraks-ptc-mandate

But the point about being able to operate without PTC quite safely specially with only two trains a day is on the mark.

Using the example of Palmetto was probably somewhat imprudent given that the type of human failure was a terrible indictment of Boardman's safety program.

You really linking another Trains article?

 

[jis]

Now Boardman chimes in with not an exactly stellar safety record in his regime. But hey, who remembers that crap?

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/08/28-boardman-weighs-in-on-amtraks-ptc-mandate

But the point about being able to operate without PTC quite safely specially with only two trains a day is on the mark.

Using the example of Palmetto was probably somewhat imprudent given that the type of human failure was a terrible indictment of Boardman's safety program.

You really linking another Trains article?

What Boardman said is of relevance I think, since this mess originates in his regime, and he has been trying hard to deflect as much as he can.

 

[cpotisch]

Now Boardman chimes in with not an exactly stellar safety record in his regime. But hey, who remembers that crap?

http://trn.trains.com/news/news-wire/2018/08/28-boardman-weighs-in-on-amtraks-ptc-mandate

But the point about being able to operate without PTC quite safely specially with only two trains a day is on the mark.

Using the example of Palmetto was probably somewhat imprudent given that the type of human failure was a terrible indictment of Boardman's safety program.

You really linking another Trains article?

What Boardman said is of relevance I think, since this mess originates in his regime, and he has been trying hard to deflect as much as he can.

Fair enough.

 

[chrsjrcj]

"For those carriers and routes operating under an extension or under an FRA-approved exemption, Amtrak is performing risk analyses and developing strategies for enhancing safety on a route-by-route basis to ensure that there is a single level of safety across the Amtrak network.
"For those very limited routes where a host may not achieve an alternative schedule by year’s end, Amtrak will suspend service and may seek alternative modes of service until such routes come into compliance."

While the original Trains article may have been drawing conclusions, the fact remains that 1) Amtrak is looking at possibly discontinuing service over PTC exempt or non-PTC lines and 2) the Southwest Chief faces a very real threat of bustitution. Hopefully the language in the Senate bill can nip both of these in the bud.

You do realize of course that operating a train on a segment that is not Exempt and has not achieved an FRA Alternative Schedule certification would be illegal on Jan 1. It is not something about which Amtrak has a choice.

The only open issue is how SMS is used to handle Exempt segments, or not, where Amtrak has the potential of applying discretion available to it in a negative way.

Actually the Southwest Chief has a double whammy before even we get to the PTC Exempt issue. It is under threat (a) NMRX possibly not getting Alternative Schedule certification, (b) Funding issues not getting resolved, and after that there is the Amtrak invented PTC Exempt issue, provided Amtrak SMS analysis says that Amtrak cannot trust its systems and employees to safely operate just two of their own trains in a day with absolutely no other traffic in a safe way. That would say an incredible amount about the failure of Amtrak's management more than anything else. I would be surprised if they actually go there. I think they will spend more time dicking around with the funding thing. But of course we will see.

Meanwhile it remains true that SWC is under greater threat at this time than any other train, and we need to keep hammering the relevant members of the various legislators involved.

I’m fully aware and meant the PTC exempt routes that was mentioned in the Trains article.

 

[jis]

So, if the Democrats had their way, those 8 trains would be history even without the Amtrak shenanigans. Sigh.... Politicians! They need to learn when to stop grandstanding and get real.

https://www.progressiverailroading.com/ptc/news/House-Democrats-warn-FRA-against-PTC-exemptions--55023

So maybe the Obama appointees are doing the Democrats bidding? Anything is possible these days.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

So, if the Democrats had their way, those 8 trains would be history even without the Amtrak shenanigans. Sigh.... Politicians! They need to learn when to stop grandstanding and get real. https://www.progressiverailroading.com/ptc/news/House-Democrats-warn-FRA-against-PTC-exemptions--55023 So maybe the Obama appointees are doing the Democrats bidding? Anything is possible these days.

According to my reading of the letter contained in your link, if the Democrats had their way most of the listed exceptions would be denied permanent waivers and instead funded with additional appropriations as necessary. Perhaps you meant to imply that from a bureaucratic standpoint these appropriations are unlikely, but that's not the same thing as having it the authors' way.

 

[jis]

They sent this letter in the last couple of months, with the deadline looming in December. You seriously believe that with denial of all exemptions any of these segments will actually have any service on them past December? Even with all the additional appropriations now none of these segments would meet the extension criteria, so those will have to be changed too.

They are just being silly at this point. If they had done this two years back that would be something else. Alternatively they could do this together with extending everything by two more years. But absent that Sorry. You are not making much sense.

 

[Palmetto]

At best, under his "leadership," we might wind up with a weekly or twice-weekly "City of Everywhere" train with the rolling stock and amenities most of us dream about.

This seems pretty optimistic...

That would dovetail nicely with his statement that there is a place of experiential trips by train in the USA.

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

It just occurred to me that, if the knowledgeable people here on AU are having differences of opinion and different viewpoints and understanding of all of this, then many lawmakers are probably clueless about it. In general, they probably know very little about trains, because they focus on other things that are "hot topics"--health care, etc.--and take time to learn about them instead.