Amtrak Siemens Charger locomotive (SC44, ALC42, ALC42E) (2015 - 1Q 2024)

[Ryan]

 

[afigg]

Updates and interesting items from the NGEC January 3, 2017 board meeting draft minutes available on the board webpage.

There have been and continue to be many challenges related to a variety of issues including testing, storage agreements etc. It is a tough process with three states, Amtrak and Siemens working together. There are more issues than initially expected and more agreements necessary than initially expected. John described the process as challenging with a lot of lessons learned.

The JPEs meet twice a week with Siemens and Amtrak. An action log has been developed on all actions and agreements.

There are some concerns with the schedule, but the parties are working hard to make sure that “we meet the ARRA deadline”.

Overall, it is a time-consuming process, but the effort has been collaborative with all parties getting along well together throughout.

Locomotive 4604 which has been at MARC – testing has been a success and it is due in Chicago possibly as soon as today.

500 mile tests on 8 locomotives are continuing and going well at TTCI.

One locomotive has been sent to WSDOT (thank you to Ron Pate and Jason Biggs, WSDOT, for their help on is)
to do 238 111B testing on the Cascades.

How many years in advance did they have to get all the legal and contractual issues settled prior to the delivery of the first batch of locomotives?

Further down in the minutes, there is this potential legal issue that could throw a major road block into some states buying the Siemens locomotives.

Allan Paul, NCDOT, raised the following issue for discussion among the Board members:

NCDOT has been in discussions with Siemens “to tag onto the Diesel-Electric Locomotive order, but recently were informed that Siemens has signed a contract with Iran to build 30 locomotives. NCDOT has previously enacted legislation – the Iran Divestment Act – that prohibits the state from doing business with a company that has a contract with Iran.

Allan asked if other states have similar legislation, and if so, is there a way forward?

Ray Hessinger reported that NYSDOT has similar legislation, but, although the state intends to procure Dual Mode (DC 3rd Rail) Locomotives along with Metro North, they have not encountered this issue yet as they are too early in the process.

Steve Keck commented that California has similar legislation – but the issue of Siemens having a contract with Iran is “new to me”.

Jason Biggs said that he is not aware of Washington State having such a provision in law, but will look into it.

John Oimoen, IDOT, echoed what Jason stated and added that he, too, will look into it.

Eric Curtit stated that Missouri has made several attempts to pass similar legislation, but it has not happened yet.

Allan Paul suggested that “someone from the NGEC contact Siemens for confirmation that they have signed a contract with Iran.” Allan said he has learned about the contract from the North Carolina Auditors office and would like to get further confirmation.

Eric Curtit stated that he and Steve Hewitt will reach out to Siemens.

Allan will provide Steve and Eric with a scanned copy of the information he received internally at NCDOT.

Steve Hewitt will send all Board members a copy of the NC legislation.

Boeing is in the process of seeking to sell passenger jets to Iran. Are the states with similar anti-Iran legistlation going to stop doing any business with Boeing or any of Boeing's suppliers?

 

[A Voice]

Updates and interesting items from the NGEC January 3, 2017 board meeting draft minutes available on the board webpage.

There have been and continue to be many challenges related to a variety of issues including testing, storage agreements etc. It is a tough process with three states, Amtrak and Siemens working together. There are more issues than initially expected and more agreements necessary than initially expected. John described the process as challenging with a lot of lessons learned.

The JPEs meet twice a week with Siemens and Amtrak. An action log has been developed on all actions and agreements.

There are some concerns with the schedule, but the parties are working hard to make sure that “we meet the ARRA deadline”.

Overall, it is a time-consuming process, but the effort has been collaborative with all parties getting along well together throughout.

Locomotive 4604 which has been at MARC – testing has been a success and it is due in Chicago possibly as soon as today.

500 mile tests on 8 locomotives are continuing and going well at TTCI.

One locomotive has been sent to WSDOT (thank you to Ron Pate and Jason Biggs, WSDOT, for their help on is)

to do 238 111B testing on the Cascades.

How many years in advance did they have to get all the legal and contractual issues settled prior to the delivery of the first batch of locomotives?

Further down in the minutes, there is this potential legal issue that could throw a major road block into some states buying the Siemens locomotives.

Allan Paul, NCDOT, raised the following issue for discussion among the Board members:

NCDOT has been in discussions with Siemens “to tag onto the Diesel-Electric Locomotive order, but recently were informed that Siemens has signed a contract with Iran to build 30 locomotives. NCDOT has previously enacted legislation – the Iran Divestment Act – that prohibits the state from doing business with a company that has a contract with Iran.

Allan asked if other states have similar legislation, and if so, is there a way forward?

Ray Hessinger reported that NYSDOT has similar legislation, but, although the state intends to procure Dual Mode (DC 3rd Rail) Locomotives along with Metro North, they have not encountered this issue yet as they are too early in the process.

Steve Keck commented that California has similar legislation – but the issue of Siemens having a contract with Iran is “new to me”.

Jason Biggs said that he is not aware of Washington State having such a provision in law, but will look into it.

John Oimoen, IDOT, echoed what Jason stated and added that he, too, will look into it.

Eric Curtit stated that Missouri has made several attempts to pass similar legislation, but it has not happened yet.

Allan Paul suggested that “someone from the NGEC contact Siemens for confirmation that they have signed a contract with Iran.” Allan said he has learned about the contract from the North Carolina Auditors office and would like to get further confirmation.

Eric Curtit stated that he and Steve Hewitt will reach out to Siemens.

Allan will provide Steve and Eric with a scanned copy of the information he received internally at NCDOT.

Steve Hewitt will send all Board members a copy of the NC legislation.

Boeing is in the process of seeking to sell passenger jets to Iran. Are the states with similar anti-Iran legistlation going to stop doing any business with Boeing or any of Boeing's suppliers?

What I am immediately curious about, and must admit I don't know the answer to, is just what sanctions remain in place at the federal level (there was recent legislation). There could well be further changes with the incoming administration.

 

[Thirdrail7]

How many years in advance did they have to get all the legal and contractual issues settled prior to the delivery of the first batch of locomotives?

Did we really expect a consortium of states to work well together and think in advance?

The real question is why are we surprised?

 

[jis]

Allan Paul, NCDOT, raised the following issue for discussion among the Board members:

NCDOT has been in discussions with Siemens “to tag onto the Diesel-Electric Locomotive order, but recently were informed that Siemens has signed a contract with Iran to build 30 locomotives. NCDOT has previously enacted legislation – the Iran Divestment Act – that prohibits the state from doing business with a company that has a contract with Iran.

Allan asked if other states have similar legislation, and if so, is there a way forward?

Ray Hessinger reported that NYSDOT has similar legislation, but, although the state intends to procure Dual Mode (DC 3rd Rail) Locomotives along with Metro North, they have not encountered this issue yet as they are too early in the process.

Steve Keck commented that California has similar legislation – but the issue of Siemens having a contract with Iran is “new to me”.

Jason Biggs said that he is not aware of Washington State having such a provision in law, but will look into it.

John Oimoen, IDOT, echoed what Jason stated and added that he, too, will look into it.

Eric Curtit stated that Missouri has made several attempts to pass similar legislation, but it has not happened yet.

Allan Paul suggested that “someone from the NGEC contact Siemens for confirmation that they have signed a contract with Iran.” Allan said he has learned about the contract from the North Carolina Auditors office and would like to get further confirmation.

Eric Curtit stated that he and Steve Hewitt will reach out to Siemens.

Allan will provide Steve and Eric with a scanned copy of the information he received internally at NCDOT.

Steve Hewitt will send all Board members a copy of the NC legislation.

Boeing is in the process of seeking to sell passenger jets to Iran. Are the states with similar anti-Iran legistlation going to stop doing any business with Boeing or any of Boeing's suppliers?

It would be really fascinating if South Carolina or Washington has such a law. I am sure Airbus must be most delighted since Iran is in the process of placing large civilian aircraft orders. I am sure Putin will advise Trump to block Boeing from doing business so that Illyushin can get a toehold in that market, provided they can beat Airbus.

 

[Dutchrailnut]

seems like poor attempt by someone to promote the still not functioning/approvedEMD units

 

[neroden]

Oh Good god. Maybe NYS can simply repeal the stupid anti-Iran law? It's time to talk to Cuomo and the legislative leaders. This stupid law isn't the sort of thing anyone in NY government should actually care about, it's just posturing.

California can probably get it repealed on request.

Didn't we normalize relations with Iran on the federal level? Time to do so on the state level too.

 

[MattW]

Oh Good god. Maybe NYS can simply repeal the stupid anti-Iran law? It's time to talk to Cuomo and the legislative leaders. This stupid law isn't the sort of thing anyone in NY government should actually care about, it's just posturing.

California can probably get it repealed on request.

Didn't we normalize relations with Iran on the federal level? Time to do so on the state level too.

Uh, I think you're thinking about Cuba. As far as I know anyways, relations with Iran are the same as they have been for years. But yes, to hold back a public works project just because some huge multi-national company sells random stuff (not even stuff like arms) to Iran, is silly.

 

[grover5995]

Total shot in the dark guess here, but did the original Midwest portion of the order include locomotives for the Hiawatha? Not that anywhere near 12 locomotives are needed for that service, but that *could* explain a few of them. (Although Hiawatha costs are usually a 75% WI/25% IL split, so...)

At this time, discussions are underway between IL and WI to expand number of trains on the Hiawatha Corridor. However there is very little extra AMTRAK equipment available at this time, and no discussion of new replacements. There is also a traffic study that strongly supports a 2nd train between Chicago and Minneapolis, but there would likely need to be all new equipment. Perhaps Siemens could build a few extra Brightline train sets for the Midwest.

 

[west point]

. Perhaps Siemens could build a few extra Brightline train sets for the Midwest.

Sorry the Brightline cars are high platform only. Will require designing and adding traps and probably a squeeze test ?

Another possible problem is at present Brightline cars do not have standard tight lock couplers but are semi permanently coupled much like Acelas

 

[Dutchrailnut]

as long as coupler pocket is at right height, it would be no problem to put regular type CF couplers in.

And pretty sure brightliners are not under High speed FRA rules so side sills could be modified for low entrance.

 

[afigg]

At this time, discussions are underway between IL and WI to expand number of trains on the Hiawatha Corridor. However there is very little extra AMTRAK equipment available at this time, and no discussion of new replacements. There is also a traffic study that strongly supports a 2nd train between Chicago and Minneapolis, but there would likely need to be all new equipment. Perhaps Siemens could build a few extra Brightline train sets for the Midwest.

Provided that the Nippon-Sharyo bi-level contract order does not fall apart, the new bi-level cars should start entry into revenue service sometime in 2018. The bi-level cars will free up Horizons for the Hiawatha service if IL and WI decide to pursue adding additional daily trains on that corridor. WI could also order bi-level cars if they were to spend state funds on the order - or land some federal funding to pay for part of an rolling stock order if it can be had. Or buy Chargers to join the Midwest locomotive equipment pool. But any such action by WI would likely have to wait until Wisconsin has a new Governor. Looking it up, Gov. Walker is not term limited. Oh well.

Anyway, this is a Charger locomotive thread, not a coach car equipment thread, so let's keep on topic.

 

[afigg]

Perhaps my January 9 post above was overly optimistic on the N-S bi-levels. But this is the Siemens Charger thread and there are positive developments in the NGEC January 31, 2017 draft minutes that obviously just posted. Excerpts:

Mid-West States Section 6 progress report:

The group continues to work on contract related needs for Receival of the new equipment.

Work on associated agreements with Amtrak is ongoing.

The Charger (4604) has arrived in Chicago.

Status Update: Diesel-Electric Locomotive Procurement

· JPEs continue to work with Siemens on schedule and conduct weekly conference calls.

· As of now, successful 500-mile conditional acceptance tests have been completed on IDOT units: 4601, 4602, 4604, 4605, 4606, 4608, 4609 & 4610. Locomotives 4603 & 4607 are at TTCI and were tested last week. The first WSDOT locomotives are being prepared to ship to Pueblo.

· After 500-mile testing is complete, all locomotives will next ship to Chicago, when IDOT and Amtrak agreements are in place.

· Maintenance demonstrations are going well at Siemens and are about 50% complete, this week.

· IDOT and Amtrak agreed and signed agreements this past week for storage, testing and commissioning the locomotives.

· IDOT locomotive 4611 has been sent to WSDOT for 238.111(b) and WSDOT required 213.345 testing on the Cascades route. WSDOT will conduct the 238.111(b) test. Other JPEs are working with Amtrak for 238.111(a) test plans.

· JPEs are working with Siemens for Wi-Tronix application, as required by Amtrak. The first unit is currently being installed. Siemens progress looks good so far.

 

[Steve4031]

Maybe we will see some Chargers in march on the Lincoln service.

 

[Steve4031]

Maybe we will see some Chargers in march on the Lincoln service.

 

[neroden]

Good news. Siemens seems reliable. They do *not* appear to make a "Superliner style" low boarding coach, however, so if the N-S order falls through, I think it's back to Alstom..

 

[MattW]

We're assuming Alstom can do it. From what I gather reading over the NSo thread, they could have probably pulled it off without the requirement for the 20klb weight reduction. Can Alstom do any better with such a constraint?

 

[jis]

We're assuming Alstom can do it. From what I gather reading over the NSo thread, they could have probably pulled it off without the requirement for the 20klb weight reduction. Can Alstom do any better with such a constraint?

It is conceivable that it is more likely that someone who has already built such cars meeting the 800klb requirement is better positioned to figure out where to shed the 20klb from than someone starting with a clean slate. But of course we will never know for sure until the proverbial fat lady sings, now would we?

 

[PerRock]

Good news. Siemens seems reliable. They do *not* appear to make a "Superliner style" low boarding coach, however, so if the N-S order falls through, I think it's back to Alstom..

Siemens has the Viaggio Twin design. It's not that widely used, I think SBB is the only operator & they're using the older model. http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mobility/global/en/urban-mobility/rail-solutions/passenger-coaches/pages/passenger-coaches.aspx

peter

 

[sitzplatz17]

Good news. Siemens seems reliable. They do *not* appear to make a "Superliner style" low boarding coach, however, so if the N-S order falls through, I think it's back to Alstom..

Siemens has the Viaggio Twin design. It's not that widely used, I think SBB is the only operator & they're using the older model. http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mobility/global/en/urban-mobility/rail-solutions/passenger-coaches/pages/passenger-coaches.aspx

peter

Interesting. I wonder how difficult it would be to modify the Viaggio Twins to comply with US regulations.

Siemens seems to have been doing an excellent job delivering equipment on time and within specifications.

(At least compared to CAF and N-S!)

Looking at the ACS-64 for the NEC, Brightline in FL, and Chargers they seem to consistently provide a workable and reliable product.

Leave it to the German's to get it right!

(Is my German-heritage bias coming through at all? )

But seriously, it would be nice to see Siemens rewarded for their consistency and reliability. I was kind of bummed when they lost out on the new Acela bid so maybe this is a chance to reward them.

 

[neroden]

Good news. Siemens seems reliable. They do *not* appear to make a "Superliner style" low boarding coach, however, so if the N-S order falls through, I think it's back to Alstom..

Siemens has the Viaggio Twin design. It's not that widely used, I think SBB is the only operator & they're using the older model. http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mobility/global/en/urban-mobility/rail-solutions/passenger-coaches/pages/passenger-coaches.aspx

peter

Yeah, but that's like the Bombardiers used in Toronto on GO Transit, it's a trilevel with walking between cars on the middle level. Rather different design from the Superliner design. I mean, yeah, they could use it as a basis, but they'd have to do a near complete redesign.

 

[DSS&A]

Hi, I saw a Charger locomotive in the Amtrak yard in Chicago on February 2nd. It was on the track closest to the river coupled to five private varnish passenger cars.

 

[Fan Railer]

http://wsdotblog.blogspot.com/2017/02/washington-conducting-national-test.html

You just might catch a sneak peek of Amtrak Cascades' future this month as we test a new state-of-the-art locomotive along our route.

We've been selected to conduct the national certification testing of the new Siemens Charger locomotives. That means one of the sleek, high-tech machines will be traveling up and down the Amtrak Cascades corridor a couple of different times this month.

We're buying eight of the Charger locomotives as part of a multi-state procurement and these tests will certify the locomotives for use across the nation. Just as importantly, this work moves us one step closer to using the new locomotives on our Amtrak Cascades passenger train routes. (We, along with the Oregon Department of Transportation run the Amtrak Cascades service).

 

[Gemuser]

Good news. Siemens seems reliable. They do *not* appear to make a "Superliner style" low boarding coach, however, so if the N-S order falls through, I think it's back to Alstom..

Siemens has the Viaggio Twin design. It's not that widely used, I think SBB is the only operator & they're using the older model. http://www.mobility.siemens.com/mobility/global/en/urban-mobility/rail-solutions/passenger-coaches/pages/passenger-coaches.aspx

peter

SZD also. This is a brilliant car design, better [from a passenger perspective] than anything currently running in North America [superliners, Viewliners, Acella, Amfleet I & II, Bi-levels [east, central & west]. I rode them for 1000 km last January [2016] no mean feat in such a small country. They are comfortable, accessible, smooth riding & plenty of facilities. You could do a lot worse!

 

[Fan Railer]

4611 ran it's first test run on the 18th. Photo credits to Steve: