Amtrak trains to get 180 day notices after July 1s

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Alan,

Being a former Wisconsinite, I must humbly correct you and state that Tommy Thompson is from Wisconsin, and I think he should have gotten the nod as Secretary of Transportation when Bush first came into office!

Would things have been different? quite possibly, as he at least was educated about Amtrak.
 
Thanks Empirebuilderfan

Well OpenMinded the quote above from your post is one that I could not agree with more! And although I do not have any direct quotes from Bush on Amtrak, I would say his proposal of $0 for the 2006 budget year for Amtrak speaks volumes. And I did read some news article from a regular news source that he thinks private companies should take over passenger rail service. I guess he has never done any reading on Amtrak and why it was created in the first place.
I'm not disputing a thing you said. Is the $0 funding for 2006 a published fact and not just some New York Times article? If he did in fact do this, could the motive be as someone else suggested, to shake up the status Quo for more states funding? Is the restrictions on Amtrak coming straight from him or being dictated by the funding from Congress? And how did he get Congress to do this?

I'm not defending this President, just support him when I think he is right and criticize him when IMHO he is wrong. It's the same thing I did for Bill *******...
 
OpenMinded said:
Does Bush personally appoint the head of Amtrak? Seriously, I'm just asking.
Technically by definition, no Bush does not appoint the head of Amtrak. However that said, he has appointed the few members of the Amtrak board that have that power. And it should be noted that of the 3 members that he has appointed, all are friends of his, and two of them he couldn't get confirmed by Congress. So he had to use a loophole to get them on the board, twice.

Apparently he didn't get the message from Congress the first time, when they refused to vote on his nominations. But rather than provide two new names, he used that loophole once again. Now he finally has provided two more nominations to Congress, that have yet to be acted upon by Congress. However, the fact remains that he has failed in his duties as President to appoint a full Amtrak board for the last several years.

So this to one extent or another leaves either Bush or someone within his administration with way too much influence on the small, under populated board.

Next let's consider that the board hired a firm to find the next president of Amtrak, the very day that they fired Gunn. Here we are now 6+ months later with narry a name in the wind. Either this firm is incompetent or they simply can find someone who can do the job that the board and through it the Administration seem to want done.

OpenMinded said:
The Senate and House however are not dependent on Bush's whims and gain nothing in supporting him over the wishes of the folks back home.
You're quite right, but consider that the DOT, not Congress holds control of Amtrak's stock. And any law that Congress passes to stop or change things that the administration may want, must be signed by the President or they more over-ride his veto.

OpenMinded said:
I have heard repeatedly on here to show where posted facts and items come from. I humbly ask where are the facts that George W. Bush hates Amtrak? I'm not asking for opinions or left wing talking points or right wing talking points either. Has he come right out and said he hated Amtrak? Has he personally stated that Amtrak needs dismantling? Has he personally set the funding on Amtrak and if so, how? I thought this has to be done by the House. Did he veto or use the line item veto to lower the funding?
I don't think that anyone outside of the Bush administration actually knows if it was George or someone else who wrote the zero funding for Amtrak into last years proposed budget that the White House sent to Capitol Hill. However, like it or not, the buck stops with the President. Everything that comes out of the White House by definition is what he wants. It's simply the way things are.

Had he fired someone over the zero funding, then he could have disavowed knowledge of it. Since the didn't happen, he at least concurred with trying to kill Amtrak when he allowed his proposed budget to go to Congress without comment or further action.

He's also allowed Norman Mineta, and others from the DOT, to run around bad mouthing Amtrak. Now I'll be the first to admit, that Amtrak needs fixing, major fixing. A lot of the problems can be corrected with proper funding, but not all. There does need to be some fundamental changes in how Amtrak works, manages things, and runs trains.

But allowing Norman to run around spouting half truths, and in some cases out right untruths, isn't the correct way to fix Amtrak. Saying that no one rides the LD's, when the facts clearly indicate otherwise as I proved with last March's figures else where on this forum, is a lie. Unless one considers an average of 333 people per LD train, each and every day to be nobody.

And again, Norman Mineta serves at the President's pleasure. If George didn't like what he was saying, then he should have fired him. The fact that that didn't happen can only mean of two things, either the President approved of Norman's actions, or the President has no clue about what's going on in the White House. I sure hope that it's the former, as the later is too scarry to contemplate.

To answer your direct question, no, I don't think that George has ever been quoted as saying that Amtrak should be gone. In fact as Governor of Texas, he once proclaimed that Amtrak was a Federal responsability. But the actions from his White House now seem to be in direct contradiction of that statement. It was his White House that proposed "Zero" funding last year. It was his White House that proposed joint State/Federal funding on more than one occasion. Oddly enough the funding split that they proposed is far worse for the states, than the matches they currently get for highways.

So the actions of the White House would seem to indicate that he has changed his tune, since he became President. And again, like it or not, everything that comes out of the White House is ultimately his responsability. He'll get the blame for everything bad, and the credit for everything good. It's simply the way things are.

As for your final question in that paragraph, the President proposes a budget, that Congress can accept outright or they can alter it to how they see fit. Then once it passes both houses of Congress, the President must sign it into law. Since the President doesn't have line item veto power on the budget, he can't just kill one line. He would have to shoot down the entire budget. That would shut this country down or at least create problems and political fall out.

OpenMinded said:
Now if its the Republican controlled Congress that's doing this, why is Bush to blame anymore than all the Presidents since Nixon that were controlled by Democrats?
So far it's been the Republican controlled Congress that has been opposing the budget recomendations from the White House, and approving more money than the administration asked them to give to Amtrak.

So everything keeps coming back to the White House and therefore, the President.
 
frj1983 said:
Alan,
Being a former Wisconsinite, I must humbly correct you and state that Tommy Thompson is from Wisconsin, and I think he should have gotten the nod as Secretary of Transportation when Bush first came into office!

Would things have been different? quite possibly, as he at least was educated about Amtrak.
You are quite right and I'm sorry, not sure how Michigan popped into my head at that moment. :unsure:

You and many others had hoped that Tommy would get DOT, including Tommy himself. I've heard that he was quite disapointed when he didn't get that post and that one of the reasons that he took the HHS position was so that he could still try to keep his voice heard when Amtrak was discussed in the White House.

I do know that his heart never quite seemed into being HHS Secretary.

And Tommy definately knew about Amtrak, he fought long and hard for them. So much so, that out of 207 new P42's only one so far has ever been named in anyone's honor, and engine #182 proudly carries Tommy Thompson's name on its side. :)
 
And here is that engine in Milwaukee. I rode behind her on 6/2/06.

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An 80/20 funding for Amtrak would be one of the best gifts for Amtrak ever. If Bush supports 80/20, then Bush supports Amtrak.

BTW, 80/20 would mean the feds will pay a lot more for Amtrak. Billions more.
 
Ok, Thank you AlanB for your detailed explanation. So I gather that it is more of a track record over a period of time rather than just easily referenced web links or articals.

As I said, I'm very open minded and you certainly have been involved on the subject of Amtrak much more than I ,so I don't doubt your views.

Shame on mean ole Bush. :D
 
GP35 said:
An 80/20 funding for Amtrak would be one of the best gifts for Amtrak ever. If Bush supports 80/20, then Bush supports Amtrak.
BTW, 80/20 would mean the feds will pay a lot more for Amtrak. Billions more.
The Administration didn't support 80/20, they proposed a 50/50 split. That's far lower than the 80/20 or occasionally 70/30 split that the highways and other rail projects get.
 
OpenMinded said:
Ok, Thank you AlanB for your detailed explanation. So I gather that it is more of a track record over a period of time rather than just easily referenced web links or articals.As I said, I'm very open minded and you certainly have been involved on the subject of Amtrak much more than I ,so I don't doubt your views.

Shame on mean ole Bush. :D
Open,

Yes, part of it is simply the ongoing track record as it were of the administration. The zero budget however was widely publicized and generally critcized in the media at that time. I'm not sure if that budget proposal can still be found on the governements website, but I wouldn't be surprised if you couldn't still find some newspaper articles in the archives of some papers.

One simple and interesting thing that you might want to do is to check out the NARP fact checkers for the last two years. These pages located here and here make for some interesting reading. They dispute some of the mis-statement and mis-truths spouted by Mineta, as well as others opposed to Amtrak. Note that not all of the statements are from White House spokesmen, some are from Congressmen, other's from DOT, and so on.

But it will give you some insight into some of the things that the President has allowed to be said on his behalf. Things that sadly when taken with no clear statements from him, along with the zero budget, would seem to indicate that the President doesn't want Amtrak. At the very least, he's certainly not fighting for it.
 
The Administration didn't support 80/20, they proposed a 50/50 split. That's far lower than the 80/20 or occasionally 70/30 split that the highways and other rail projects get.
IE...Boston's "Big Dig" :angry:
 
AlanB said:
GP35 said:
An 80/20 funding for Amtrak would be one of the best gifts for Amtrak ever. If Bush supports 80/20, then Bush supports Amtrak.
BTW, 80/20 would mean the feds will pay a lot more for Amtrak. Billions more.
The Administration didn't support 80/20, they proposed a 50/50 split. That's far lower than the 80/20 or occasionally 70/30 split that the highways and other rail projects get.
Maybe propose 50/50, settle for 80/20.
 
I have enjoyed the Conservative's comment deploring the finding of money for medical and education issues for illegals, and then bemoaning the attacks on Conservatives on this board. I always enjoy an even handed approach to Amtrak funding! ha ha.

Ed B)
 
Maybe propose 50/50, settle for 80/20.
Thats the way We Texans think for sure.

My Dad was co-signing for my first car at The local bank with his loan officer.

He knew how this loan officer operated so he asked for a $1200.00 loan for a car that was priced at $600.00. This was a time before "Blue Books" were used on car loans. The loan officer stated that was too much and cut it in half like he always did. My Dad said to always ask for more than needed

and settle for less.....BD
 
caravanman said:
I have enjoyed the Conservative's comment deploring the finding of money for medical and education issues for illegals, and then bemoaning the attacks on Conservatives on this board. I always enjoy an even handed approach to Amtrak funding! ha ha.Ed  B)
Ed...The point being, this is a rail fan or Amtrak blog and should contain a healthy discussion on the politics behind Amtraks funding but not the politics of wide sweeping attacks on either Liberals or Conseratives.

Lord knows there are plenty of both Right and left wing blogs for that.

I, in no way, wish to turn this into politics but as for the illegals, It's not that America is anti-immigration because we are not. We are a nation of Former immigrants. What is hurting us right now is the tidal wave of illegals

that have swamped our medical facilities for free medical that their bills are passed on to our citizens that have medical insurance. This drives up the cost of insurance to the point many have to drop their coverage and they add to the burden of taxpayers if they are lucky and not be stuck with thousands owed. As for education, in my state, local schools are funded mostly by property tax's imposed on home owners and supposedly by the Lotto( which is used for everything). The renters do not pay property tax or fund public schools and most illegals are renters. They usually have large numbers of children and are also swamping the schools. We are having to build more and more classrooms plus hire more teachers. We also have to provide special educational classes to teach English and provide a more natural homeland atmosphere for the kids. This funding simply does not come from the illegals. Maybe we need to pass a Tea Tax huh? :) just kidding....

Now, if there are any illegals or family of illegals on here, I'm not attacking you and apologize if I offended anyone. I'm just saying that as a taxpayer and health care user, I can't afford you any longer.
 
No more service to NOL at all? I find that hard to believe. Amtrak has done a lot of PR proclaiming its return to New Orleans after the hurricane. They even recently issued a press release saying that the "rail/cruise" packages from New Orleans will be starting again this Fall to coincide with the return of the cruise ships.

If this takes place, it will just add more insult to injury to the people down here....air service capacity is way down (even though demand is extraordinarily high), bus service is way down, and now, no trains. Unbelieveable.

I'm glad I got to ride on the thee NOL trains in their entirety over the past few years.

$% the Bush administration.
 
The discussion on "illegals" does not belong on this forum, period.

Now, I've seen some comments on this thread and others that states that Bush hates Amtrak because Amtrak is a threat to his friends in the oil and airline industries.

However, logic does not follow that this would be behind an attack on long-distance trains. Why? Because Amtrak's long-distance trains do not compete with airlines. PERIOD. The only place where Amtrak competes with the airlines is on the northeast corridor. If it was really about protecting the airline interests, the NEC would be the subject of the greatest attacks and lies and misinformation. The long-distance trains as a whole carry a few million passengers a year, which is less than 1% of what the airlines carry. Furthermore, they serve cities that are not served (or not very well served) by airlines. The purpose of the long-distance train is not, never has been, and never will be to compete with the airlines.

Certainly, Bush is no friend of passenger rail. Certainly, he has good friends tied to the oil and airline industries. But that isn't behind the attacks on long-distance trains. I don't know what is, specifically (maybe a dislike for labor unions, with Amtrak being heavily unionized), but it ain't the airlines and oil issue.
 
It seems to me that no rail system in the world is free of public financial support, non can expect to make a profit in commercial terms. It seems that the debate should not be about profitability, but simply about how much (financial) support the American public want to give their rail system.

I guess a rich person who has a vehicle won't see it as being as worthwhile as a poorer person who lacks private transport.

I was kind of surprised to see immigration as an issue on this forum too, but as it was raised, I like to see a balanced argument...I guess a ready supply of cheaper labour can't hurt the economy...

Ed B)
 
I disagree with the oil companies not being behind the attacks on Amtrak. Trains are very efficient in that they can carry alot of people and freight. And the demand/need for train travel is growing by the day. More people riding trains would mean less people driving cars and filling up at the pump. If Amtrak were eliminated, all of the people who currently ride trains would be forced to either drive, take buses or fly. For people in rural areas it would probably entail all three.

So without Amtrak oil consumption will rise. Not significantly, but I think it would be a big step in re-eliminating trains as a means for passenger travel. Do some research on what happened to the old trolley's in the cities. And why they were replaced with smelly, noisey buses. It's unbelieveable!
 
While illegal immigration is a "hot-button" topic right now in the USA, it has nothing, nothing, nothing to do with Amtrak. Any mention of this really is beyond the scope of this forum.

Conspiracy theories, I suppose, are okay, as long as we understand they're theories. The support for Amtrak in "red state" America is a bit stronger than the Beltway bunch thinks. It's just those types are hung up over Amtrak's direct subsidies, rather than the hidden ones highways, air, and barge traffic obtain.

It's not that those types are conservatives, liberals, or socialists; it's just they like their socialism in great big whacking gobs. ;)
 
AlanB said:
OpenMinded said:
Ok, Thank you AlanB for your detailed explanation. So I gather that it is more of a track record over a period of time rather than just easily referenced web links or articals.As I said, I'm very open minded and you certainly have been involved on the subject of Amtrak much more  than I ,so I don't doubt your views.

Shame on mean ole Bush.   :D
Open,

Yes, part of it is simply the ongoing track record as it were of the administration. The zero budget however was widely publicized and generally critcized in the media at that time. I'm not sure if that budget proposal can still be found on the governements website, but I wouldn't be surprised if you couldn't still find some newspaper articles in the archives of some papers.

One simple and interesting thing that you might want to do is to check out the NARP fact checkers for the last two years. These pages located here and here make for some interesting reading. They dispute some of the mis-statement and mis-truths spouted by Mineta, as well as others opposed to Amtrak. Note that not all of the statements are from White House spokesmen, some are from Congressmen, other's from DOT, and so on.

But it will give you some insight into some of the things that the President has allowed to be said on his behalf. Things that sadly when taken with no clear statements from him, along with the zero budget, would seem to indicate that the President doesn't want Amtrak. At the very least, he's certainly not fighting for it.
Again, Thank you Mr AlanB and also for the web links. I had no clue as to the full battle going on towards Amtrak.
 
Getting back to the orginal topic, here is a question that came to mind.

If trains 1-8 are supposedly on the chopping block, trains 7 & 8 being the Empire Builder, then what about 27 & 28??? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me that part of it is being eliminated. Then again, getting rid of the EB, which has been one of the more successful LD trains and has had significant equiptment investment in the last year or so, doesn't make any sense, either. Even back in 2002 when (I think) 13 LD routes were on the block, the EB was not one of those routes.

Dan
 
caravanman said:
.I was kind of surprised to see immigration as an issue on this forum too, but as it was raised, I like to see a balanced argument...I guess a ready supply of cheaper labour can't hurt the economy...

Ed  B)
Huh! caravanman. I stated that this was not a political forum but should be limited to Amtrack and the politics affecting it. The only reason I posted what I did was in response to your post

I have enjoyed the Conservative's comment deploring the finding of money for medical and education issues for illegals, and then bemoaning the attacks on Conservatives on this board. I always enjoy an even handed approach to Amtrak funding! ha ha.Ed  
and I seem to be the conserative that bemoaned the aforementioned attacks.However, the others are correct that this is not the place for this subject and I apologize to all......BD
 
EmpireBuilderFan1976 said:
I disagree with the oil companies not being behind the attacks on Amtrak. Trains are very efficient in that they can carry alot of people and freight. And the demand/need for train travel is growing by the day. More people riding trains would mean less people driving cars and filling up at the pump. If Amtrak were eliminated, all of the people who currently ride trains would be forced to either drive, take buses or fly. For people in rural areas it would probably entail all three.
So without Amtrak oil consumption will rise. Not significantly, but I think it would be a big step in re-eliminating trains as a means for passenger travel. Do some research on what happened to the old trolley's in the cities. And why they were replaced with smelly, noisey buses. It's unbelieveable!
As I said before, if one was really in the camp of being pro-oil companies, then the real attacks should be on the Northeast Corridor, where massive numbers of passengers are carried. That's where Amtrak competes the most with other forms of transportation, not these once-a-day trains through lightly-populated areas which, in the grand scheme of things, would have very little impact on oil consumption.

That's why blaming this all on the oil/airline conspiracy doesn't quite add up. This is a very different situation than GM, Standard Oil, and the tire companies joining together to dismantle the streetcar networks.
 
Is it just me or has this topic gotten a bit off the orginal topic? :)

Perhaps a seperate topic should be started to discuss the politics and leave this one to the 180 day notice stuff.

Just my two cents.
 
That's why blaming this all on the oil/airline conspiracy doesn't quite add up. This is a very different situation than GM, Standard Oil, and the tire companies joining together to dismantle the streetcar networks.
I agree with Robert here. The amount of oil used with or without Amtrak is a drop in the bucket, at least as LD train service is concerned. All they would have to do to make up any short fall in profits is to raise the price per gallon a cent or two. I think the reason Bush is so indifferent to Amtrak is due in part to the National debt. He has spent like a drunken sailor and the Debt has skyrocketed and keeps climbing. Now IMHO not all was unnecessary but we all have our own idea as to which were or were not. 9/11, Iraq, Katrina and the other natural disasters in Florida and Mississippi plus aid to other nation's disasters has pushed the debt to new limits.

I think he is simply trying to find things he deems expendable and puts on the chopping block.

This is why it is not a political party, big oil, airline problem. It's as AllanB pointed out, A Pro Amtrack V Anti Amtrak battle.We have to someway

convince Bush that Amtrak is not expendable.
 
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