Amtrak's New "Fresh Choices" Dining on CL & LSL

[crescent-zephyr]

I note this summer that the Cardinal from DC to Chicago seems to be sold out on a number of dates in July (I didnt check every date), but the CL to Chicago from DC seems to have roomette and bedrooms at reasonable ( Im not sure low bucket but seem lower than Ive seen before).

Is this possibly a sign that people are avoiding the CL?

Of course not. The Cardinal is a Tri-weekly train with 1.5 (after crew) single level sleepers. It's going to sell out much quicker than a daily train with 2.5 (.5 being the Transdorm) Superliner sleepers.

 

[JRR]

I guess you are both right but on the day where one had a choice (assuming Chicago is the destination), someone might decide against the CL.

As said at the start, both reasons suggested are probably why it sells out while the CL doesn’t. Maybe there is an argument to have the Cardinal made daily.

 

[seat38a]

Its like healthcare.gov version 1. Government can't to the simplest things right.

If only the government had stayed out of the passenger train business and left everything to the private sector we'd be so much better off now.

No but they could have done it better than the handout/subsidy to the Private RR which taking over their passenger business via Amtrak essentially was. Contributing worn out equipment to join Amtrak and then the government taking on all of the broken parts of the private RR on tax payers dime as far as I'm concerned was the typical government rollout blunder. To this day, Amtrak still can't get the host RR's to give them priority dispatch and trackage rights. NOT getting something with teeth related to dispatch and trackage rights I think was the biggest blunder of the Federal Government.

But then again non of this is surprising since Amtrak was never meant to survive from everything I'm reading and so it continues to limp along. IF Amtrak was a serious venture from the beginning, mandatory cash should have been a requirement NOT just POS equipment that were at the end of their useful life.

 

[sldispatcher]

I'm afraid my take on this goes against the grain of many of the louder voices.

1.Having had the good fortune to experience dining at 35,000 feet, it is very possible to serve meals way above Amtrak's previous standards. Entirely up to the purchaser (Amtrak) and the caterer. I didn't say it would happen, I said it was possible.

2. Convection oven reheating has been done for a long time in the air. To me, the key factor here does not appear to be food costs, but employee costs that are possibly being reduced.

3. Giving sleeper car passengers an exclusive space is paramount to taking Amtrak to the next level of broader appeal to customers willing to pay higher fares.

4. Anderson pushed Delta out of the doldrums and into the leader of customer service and employee morale in an industry that is not exactly famous for either. He was also very good at making money for the airline while leading improvements in customer service.

5. Market segmentation......it's probably about to get very real at Amtrak..and this is just the first step.

6. The hot meal issue...is real. And I agree with most everyone else that at least one or two options will/should be offered.

7. You remodel the space that was the dining car and put in a true lounge...and even have the ability to sandwich that car in between sleepers..and no longer be the buttress to the lounge car....and you might really have something. Again, shouldn't we give the man a chance to do what he has done elsewhere?

8. Because if he turns things around on each route to the tune of millions....there just might be more goodies that could come Amtrak's way?

9. I'm guessing this is just the tip of the iceberg. But Anderson may very well be SAVING the LD trains and laying the groundwork for growing/expanding service through segmentation. Can any of us really say Amtrak service offerings over the last 40 years have been widely acceptable to the general traveling public? I bet more announcements are just around the corner.

 

[AcrossTheOcean]

I think we're maybe conflating two things in this discussion: "nourishing breakfast" and "hot breakfast." I'd be fine with a cold breakfast that included boiled eggs or a sandwich similar to what I've seen in photos from the Portland leg of the EB. A hot breakfast would be nice, but something beyond starch and sugar is really necessary for a train that reaches its desitnation around 1PM--if it's on time.

You said it much more simply than I did. Getting enough to eat for breakfast to last until arrival given lack of lunch on the CL toward WAS has been a bigger concern to me than the temperature of the breakfast served.

 

[dlagrua]

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx

Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.

If you ask me, the guy is "off his rocker" with this analysis and let me tell you why. First off the hot breakfast in the dining car costs very little to serve. Add up what a cup of coffee, a roll, two eggs and a link or sausage or two strips of bacon costs to make. You're talking about maybe a $1.00-$1.50 in food cost perhaps less. Now replace this with a cold breakfast. Will it really save anything ? Now lets look at labor cost. Its been reported that food service workers will not lose their jobs. OK that's a good thing, you still have that labor and they are still on the payroll. Now consider that Amtrak will still run a car for sleeper passengers to eat in..Amtrak has the cost of running the car. Will someone please tell me where the savings are?

 

[Ryan]

Not sure where your food cost numbers are coming from, but at least you are consistent in making up your own facts and then drawing conclusions from them.

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx

Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.

If you ask me, the guy is "off his rocker" with this analysis and let me tell you why. First off the hot breakfast in the dining car costs very little to serve. Add up what a cup of coffee, a roll, two eggs and a link or sausage or two strips of bacon costs to make. You're talking about maybe a $1.00-$1.50 in food cost perhaps less. Now replace this with a cold breakfast. Will it really save anything ? Now lets look at labor cost. Its been reported that food service workers will not lose their jobs. OK that's a good thing, you still have that labor and they are still on the payroll. Now consider that Amtrak will still run a car for sleeper passengers to eat in..Amtrak has the cost of running the car. Will someone please tell me where the savings are?

Earlier:

Turning dining car SAs into Sleeping Car (and coach, if that’s a thing), allows you to have the same amount of staff onboard to do the work, but take those labor dollars off of the F&B line.

Which works out, when the bosses start micromanaging the way Congress has.

 

[NativeSon5859]

Interesting to read all of the comments, to say the least.

Personally, this won’t prevent me from booking an overnight Sleeping Car. Heck, I just did an overnight on the Cardinal in a sleeper and the meal service (all facets) was just horrible, both dinner and breakfast. I’d rather have had a high quality COLD meal then the garbage they serve on that train. But that’s just me, maybe.

I have always enjoyed the traditional Dining Car experience, but let’s face it - it’s a relic from a different era. A hot entree option would be nice from the get go, but I’m sure it’s something that can be added fairly easily if feedback calls for it.

Anderson turned Delta into a global leader, and one of the best companies to work for and and as a passenger, to fly on. While these changes have undoubtably ruffled some feathers, I’ll give the guy the benefit of the doubt for trying something new.

On these relatively short, one night rides, hate to say it, but this is probably the future. I’d imagine a route like the CONO is next, and since it’s one I ride frequently, let me tell you, it’d be a welcome change over the current “Dining Car” service on that train.

 

[niemi24s]

I note this summer that the Cardinal from DC to Chicago seems to be sold out on a number of dates in July (I didn’t check every date). . .

Sounds like you had used the Amtrak website to do this search. Make it easier on yourself and learn how to use PaulM's wonderful creation called AmSnag... http://biketrain.net/amsnag/amSnag.php ...which allows you to get coach and all sleeper fares between two points for an entire 30 day period. AmSnag gets the fare data from Amtrak, making it much less tedious to see what the fares are for an entire month. Here's a sample of what a week's worth of fares looks like:

 

[AmtrakLKL]

I’d rather have had a high quality COLD meal then the garbage they serve on that train. But that’s just me, maybe.

Assorted breakfast breads with butter, cream cheese and strawberry jam (not even a selection of jams!) hardly sounds high quality. The cold dinner options don't sound particularly high quality, either. One of the company's pushes to save food costs has been bulk buying leading the same standardized menu everywhere. So it wouldn't surprise me if these high quality options are from the same supplier as the existing sandwich/wrap products sold in the cafes.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

Id rather have had a high quality COLD meal then the garbage they serve on that train. But thats just me, maybe.

Assorted breakfast breads with butter, cream cheese and strawberry jam (not even a selection of jams!) hardly sounds high quality. The cold dinner options don't sound particularly high quality, either. One of the company's pushes to save food costs has been bulk buying leading the same standardized menu everywhere. So it wouldn't surprise me if these high quality options are from the same supplier as the existing sandwich/wrap products sold in the cafes.

Have you ridden the city lately? I'm in agreement the new box meals sound like an improvement. Especially since they can be served whenever, and I don't have to wait to be seated in a "dining Car" that has 1 employee trying to rush through a meal service.

 

[CAMISSY55]

... On these relatively short, one night rides, hate to say it, but this is probably the future. Id imagine a route like the CONO is next, and since its one I ride frequently, let me tell you, itd be a welcome change over the current Dining Car service on that train.

Unfortunately, the CONO is my home train when traveling to CA, which I do (round trip) two or three times a year.
So, I agree wholeheartedly that the proposed "Fresh Choice" boxed meals could be an improvement on the current offerings on the CONO.

 

[spinnaker]

Id rather have had a high quality COLD meal then the garbage they serve on that train. But thats just me, maybe.

Assorted breakfast breads with butter, cream cheese and strawberry jam (not even a selection of jams!) hardly sounds high quality. The cold dinner options don't sound particularly high quality, either. One of the company's pushes to save food costs has been bulk buying leading the same standardized menu everywhere. So it wouldn't surprise me if these high quality options are from the same supplier as the existing sandwich/wrap products sold in the cafes.

Have you ridden the city lately? I'm in agreement the new box meals sound like an improvement. Especially since they can be served whenever, and I don't have to wait to be seated in a "dining Car" that has 1 employee trying to rush through a meal service.

I never eat dinner in the dinning car. Always in the room. Is this not an option on your train?

 

[rrdude]

An out of the box idea that could be a better use of the viewliner car: In concert with the new program for the free sleeper meals, make the VII diner into the "cafe car" and serve out hot fast food items. The better VII kitchen for the cafe could allow some better tasting options (and possibly easy to make fresh options like a fresh burger if they could do it without breaking the bank.) Then you could make the old cafe car into the private lounge. Far more contemporary use of the diner that may appeal to younger travellers.

And use technology to keep the costs down. IE staffed by one employee who would cook/prepare like the cafe with an electronic kiosk for ordering (maybe a mobile app) and paying which would then present you with a number. When its done your order would be on a pickup counter identified by the number you received earlier. And the system could queue the orders in a way so as not to overwhelm the cook. And for the sleeping car passengers you could give them a credit towards a meal here as an option for them. This could also be a way to offer a hot breakfast as well. Key would be just having a couple quality options so that one employee can handle it.

Right, and how long has Amtrak been trying to implement that POS system.

Find some silicon valley company to design the app.

No need. Already out there. I showed Amtrak “order and pay at table” with iPod Touch about ten years ago. Had previously sold the NCR POS for Cap, LSL snack bar... But they they disbanded business units, and wasted MORE money by not using POS units that they spent millions on..(IBM, NCR, Cache Box....) Almost any off-the-shelf POS today will allow server to input order (now) on iPad or tablet, while at the table, and order is sent wirelessly to kitchen.

Back in the day, biggest problem was integration into Amtrak’s accounting s/w, (no prob today) and security of WiFi infrastructure, router, pc, etc., etc.) when train was stored at Sunnyside, or Chicago, or LAX.....

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I have always enjoyed the traditional Dining Car experience, but let’s face it - it’s a relic from a different era.

In other industrialized democracies full service dining cars are a relic of the past because current passenger trains are much faster, mainly operate during business hours between train stations with their own dining options, and connect to onward metro travel easily and effortlessly. Whereas Amtrak trains are as slow today as they were forty years ago, often departing from areas with little or no meal service, or in the middle of the night and early morning when most dining services are closed, with even fewer metro connections than before. Riding Amtrak is like traveling through a food desert. Keeping tickets the same price while service and quality continue to deteriorate turns cold meals into a hot button issue.

Anderson turned Delta into a global leader, and one of the best companies to work for and […] as a passenger, to fly on. While these changes have undoubtably ruffled some feathers, I’ll give the guy the benefit of the doubt for trying something new.

For 2017 Delta was rated #32 on Skytrax, which isn't a perfect measurement in and of itself, but sounds about right to me. By way of comparison Alaska scored 36, Southwest scored 54, American scored 74 and United scored 78. That puts Delta at or near the top of our domestic carriers but still well below the best of the international market.

 

[dlagrua]

Ryans Quote : Not sure where your food cost numbers are coming from, but at least you are consistent in making up your own facts and then drawing conclusions from them.

My rebuttal

I sight facts

Here they are. Go to the supermarket and feel free to challenge my figures for ordinary breakfast items.

A dozen eggs costs us about $1.29 around here. Thats roughly 13 cents each x 2 = 26 cents.

A loaf of bread costs $1.99 of which two slices of bread costs about 20 cents

Sausage links lets say the ones that i buy at Aldi cost $2 for 20 10 cents per link X 2 20 cents

coffee costs me 25 cents per cup and that's gourmet coffee I drink at home

add up the breakfast food cost at retail supermarket prices no less, and you at about $1.00

add a glass of juice for another 30 cents, two pats of butter for 20 cents and there you have it. $1.50 for breakfast food

Now go out and price it and see what you get.

 

[jis]

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx

Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.

If you ask me, the guy is "off his rocker" with this analysis and let me tell you why. First off the hot breakfast in the dining car costs very little to serve. Add up what a cup of coffee, a roll, two eggs and a link or sausage or two strips of bacon costs to make. You're talking about maybe a $1.00-$1.50 in food cost perhaps less. Now replace this with a cold breakfast. Will it really save anything ? Now lets look at labor cost. Its been reported that food service workers will not lose their jobs. OK that's a good thing, you still have that labor and they are still on the payroll. Now consider that Amtrak will still run a car for sleeper passengers to eat in..Amtrak has the cost of running the car. Will someone please tell me where the savings are?

Who do you think is off his rocker? Just because you can get something at the Supermarket at some price does not mean that the same thing can be retailed in a restaurant on wheels served by folks making good union wages and benefits for the same price. Otherwise all breakfasts at Denny's even would cost much less than they do.

The core issue about labor cost is that this is a method for moving the labor cost out of the F&B account to the general train account, while also eliminating a part of it, so even if every person is retained on the train, they disappear from the F&B account, except for one LSA. Capiche? The business about cold food has entirely to do with minimizing work load on the remaining non F&B people picking up the food from inventory and delivering them. I, like Fred, would prefer that airline First Class or Acela First Class style hot food was served, and maybe we will be able to arrive there somehow. But it does require some prep.

Again, just because I am explaining what is going on does not mean I necessarily agree with any of it.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

That's not Amtraks food costs. Amtrak has to purchase food from a commercial kitchen, that food has to be delivered to Amtrak on a commercial food truck delivered by a professional driver with a cdl license. It has to be unloaded onto a a commercial food truck, and again stored in a commercial kitchen / commisary.

If you want to have some fun, call up your local Sysco and get a price quote for a daily delivery of eggs, sausage and bread. Then you would have some real numbers.

 

[jebr]

Not to mention, at least according to the Amtrak Food Facts website Amtrak buys cage-free eggs. Around here cage free eggs start at around $3/dozen and go up from there. If there's a place in the US that sells cage-free eggs for $1.29/dozen at any sort of commercial volume I'd love to know where that is.

Also, Aldi limits quantities on certain items (I think eggs when they're on sale are often limited to 6 dozen.) I don't think 6 dozen eggs will feed the entire LD sleeper car system breakfast.

 

[jis]

I don't think 6 dozen eggs will feed the entire LD sleeper car system breakfast.

6/7th egg per head ration

 

[bretton88]

http://cs.trains.com/trn/b/fred-frailey/archive/2018/04/23/meals-on-wheels-oh-my.aspx

Fred Frailey with a great take on this. Just add in hot meals to this and it's not so bad.

Fred starts his retort by lumping reasonable concerns with reactionary comments.

That's not the sort of tactic you expect from someone being reasonable and honest.

Fred's main premise is that people should stop overreacting because...

1. Amtrak food is already poor quality so there's not much to be lost or worry about

2. Congress mandated reductions in spending long before Anderson was hired

I don't disagree with either point but I fail to see how any of this nullifies legitimate concerns that food quality and service is falling while prices are remaining the same or increasing. At least in the case of the Silver Star the ticket price was reduced to account for the lack of food and the daily Meteor remained full service for those who wanted it. That change wasn't what everyone wanted, but most people could still find what they needed. That's a harder case to make with Anderson's initiative.

Fred proposes that a much better solution is as simple as...

1. No cash sales allowed on board

2. Hot Acela style meals for sleeper passengers

Which he claims will cost/save roughly the same amount of time and money as serving cold box meals.

It's unclear to me how Fred determined Acela first class meals would cost the same as cold box meals or what exactly he thinks passengers will be ordering with their credit cards. Neither Anderson's brown bag lunch setup or Fred's at-seat airline style reheated food tray is likely to entice me to splurge on extras. Nor would I need to if Amtrak was actually deploying Acela style first class meal service where the extras are included. Does Fred consider any of this in his cost estimates or in his presumption of big theft savings? Hard saying not knowing.

Its like healthcare.gov version 1. Government can't to the simplest things right.

If only the government had stayed out of the passenger train business and left everything to the private sector we'd be so much better off now.

Fred isn't proposing ways to increase revenue, just ways to decrease losses. Going cashless won't increase revenue, but will probably decrease losses through less waste and theft. Boxed hot meals are probably only an incremental increase over the proposed cold meals, so there's still less financial loss with less customer alienation.

 

[Lonestar648]

The cost of the raw bulk food is a very small percent of the cost. It is the labor that is being camouflaged from Congress' mandate. Breakfast is the least cost in raw goods, and requires the least amount of labor to prepare, and what the government says is the most important meal of the day. Yes, some people do enjoy their meal in their room, but the majority of passengers look forward to the social interaction at meal time whether with other sleeper passengers or with Coach passengers. Meal time has always been unique on the train, even Amtrak. Now, on the CL and the LSL the experience will be changed, we guess for the worse, but not all the facts are in. Even so, with what we know so far, I am sadden by the proposed changes.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

the majority of passengers look forward to the social interaction at meal time whether with other sleeper passengers or with Coach passengers.

I highly doubt this is even close to true. I loved getting a private table all to myself on the PPC. I've met some wonderful fellow travelers in the Amtrak dining car, but I've also had some extremely awkward situations. Some of those awkward situations were created by mixing sleeper and coach passengers. I created quite a fuss one time by asking for a side of potatoes with my french toast... the coach passenger demanded she should also get potatoes with her french toast... it was a mess and made me wish I had just ordered the scrambled eggs. Yeah... lets keep those fun times rolling shall we?

While I have some concerns about the new dining, the one thing that DOES seem to get solved is... you can eat however you like. Here's your food.. have it in your room, have it in the "sleeper lounge" or hey you can always take your boxed meal to the cafe car if you want to eat with coach passengers.

 

[jis]

I would heartily second crescent-zephyr's position as far as the dining car dating games go.

 

[Rail Freak]

the majority of passengers look forward to the social interaction at meal time whether with other sleeper passengers or with Coach passengers.

I highly doubt this is even close to true. I loved getting a private table all to myself on the PPC. I've met some wonderful fellow travelers in the Amtrak dining car, but I've also had some extremely awkward situations. Some of those awkward situations were created by mixing sleeper and coach passengers. I created quite a fuss one time by asking for a side of potatoes with my french toast... the coach passenger demanded she should also get potatoes with her french toast... it was a mess and made me wish I had just ordered the scrambled eggs. Yeah... lets keep those fun times rolling shall we?

While I have some concerns about the new dining, the one thing that DOES seem to get solved is... you can eat however you like. Here's your food.. have it in your room, have it in the "sleeper lounge" or hey you can always take your boxed meal to the cafe car if you want to eat with coach passengers.

I can't believe you posted that sanctimonious statement!!!! I hope I misunderstood your message!