Amtrak's New "Fresh Choices" Dining on CL & LSL

[user 14106]

OTOH, AT at least notionally, has zero wastage, since all the numbers are known exactly. It is also 100% LD end to end passengers. It is also pretty much at break even or slightly cash positive anyway as it is. I think it will have to wait its turn for many other trains get some additional "treatment". Financially F&B on the Western trains are the worst off, so watch out what you wish for.

Clearly something will have to be done about the western trains to bring costs under control - but I just think that it needs to be different than what is being proposed for LSL/CL. I think some type of hot meals should be an option on those trains. Amtrak should also examine other options for F&B (And Im sure they are) such as outsourcing F&B operations, removing the connection between dining and sleeper tickets and simply making the diner and lounges a la carte. A la carte diners would not address labor costs but would certainly address food costs and wastage as it could be run more similarly to a restaurant - could have some type of cooler in the underutilized baggage cars for freezing and refrigerating of food items reducing waste. Overtime you'd be able to figure out appropriate stock of different food items.

I think wastage is like .0001% of the problem, the big issue is labor. On my last trip on the CS, it had 2 chefs, 4 servers, 1 LSA in the dining car 1 attendant in the PPC. That is 8 FB people tied up just in the dining car.

If you decoupled the food from the sleepers, and now assuming a big chunk of the sleeping car passengers decide not to eat in the dining car, your loses look even worse.

Even for Labor AT is the only train that has the more efficient Labor Contract making its Labor costs more competitive than any other LD train on Amtrak, due to the sharing of job roles that is permitted in the contract.

I think AT works the way it is. Most of what I say is for other LDs (such as the western trains) where it is harder to predict patronage in the diner.

 

[seat38a]

I think it could work coupled with outsourcing operations.

Since 2012/2013, when I first joined this forum, one thing that I've come to realize is that Amtrak's Unions won't go for outsourcing or change. Pretty much all that leaves Amtrak is to cut and eliminate the position. The modified service on the CL and the LSL is a CUT in labor for sure and the food OUTSOURCED. Seems to be the only way Amtrak can achieve anything related to labor is cut and or eliminate. Replacing Amtrak employee with outsourced employees will just not fly.

What do you all think of my observation?

 

[bretton88]

I don't think its impossible to make the diners work if run as a for-profit business outsourced to an operator. You let the operator decide how to run it - sit down style, take out style with the option of eating food at a table or to go (in your seat or sleeper) sort of like a cafe car but with more (and fresher) options. Maybe it isn't the traditional "dining car experience" but you have a captive audience of riders on the train and if you make it contemporary and desirable thing that people want to come to then they will come - they will have no where else to eat. When I say decouple from sleeper tickets I do not mean that it has to be the dining car experience of today, they do need to be creative, but I don't think cold box meals are necessarily the only thing that can work.)

Ahem, this was called the Subway debacle. The unions made sure it never got rolling. No private operator would touch the dining car operation if it had to be at union scale anyways.

 

[PaTrainFan]

Been quite a ride here the last couple of days. Bottom line: like it or not, this will happen. No choice but to wait on it, ride it out and, like Amtrak, evaluate later. I am guessing that this took many more months of planning that predates Anderson so he can't be the sole "blame" here. I, for one, as a frequent (roughly 2-3 times per year) rider of the Capitol, will miss the steak dinner and full breakfast. In fact, with a trip planned in a couple of weeks I will obviously experience those meals for the final time. But I will ride again, no matter. We can hope that this isn't the beginning of the end of traditional meal service on other trains but wringing hands and gnashing our teeth right now won't change a thing.

 

[Larry H.]

At minimum they really should allow for free cancellations. Maybe if you make a big fuss with customer relations, they'll give in.

By way of example, this is a reasonable ask, and something that Amtrak should do.

Disputing with your credit card is a whole different story. You bought a ticket to get you from Point A to Point B - that's still going to happen.

I said years ago that some here will defend the awful service and cost no matter how terrible they get. I never even dreamed of how sad the service would become. I have an amtrak card with a lot of points, but the things that used to make going from point a to point b have all be been removed. I haven't ridden the CNO since the diners were eliminated. One of the things to look forward too even on a 5 hour part of the run was a meal with fellow passengers. At first they had regular diners and service, then they had chef's with really decent food, but then the bottom fell out and things have gone from bad to worse. The charge for that trip from A to B has become continually worse while the service has all be been removed. I for one am not happy about a dinner of all cold foods, or a breakfast that looks like motel 6 when I may have spent lots of money on a room. The downgrades have been coming furiously for several years now. I guess there are a lot of people out there who still will pay and ride, but my excitement about a rail trip is all but gone. When I look at the trains and diners of other nations it is simply astounding how my quality some of them have. We have been fed a bunch of bull that anything being hauled by an engine is worth the fare.

 

[Larry H.]

Been quite a ride here the last couple of days. Bottom line: like it or not, this will happen. No choice but to wait on it, ride it out and, like Amtrak, evaluate later. I am guessing that this took many more months of planning that predates Anderson so he can't be the sole "blame" here. I, for one, as a frequent (roughly 2-3 times per year) rider of the Capitol, will miss the steak dinner and full breakfast. In fact, with a trip planned in a couple of weeks I will obviously experience those meals for the final time. But I will ride again, no matter. We can hope that this isn't the beginning of the end of traditional meal service on other trains but wringing hands and gnashing our teeth right now won't change a thing.

You wrote this after I saw the thread, the trouble with that theory is that the only direction they have taken on the past 10 years have been down hill. And yes they most likely can figure out how to make train travel worse, they proved it so far.

 

[cpotisch]

Isnt it the case that the LSL has a very high diner-utilization rate for Coach pax? So this system cuts out those sales, and makes the coach product less enticing. I just dont think that when you have a major service that isnt profitable (like meal service), slashing it to pieces makes it better. Now its less expensive to offer, but at a certain point why have it at all? We then see the service fail, management says its not profitable, and a couple years later its round two. Eventually Amtrak just becomes a skeleton, and you might as well eliminate it altogether.

 

[jis]

Isnt it the case that the LSL has a very high diner-utilization rate for Coach pax? So this system cuts out those sales, and makes the coach product less enticing. I just dont think that when you have a major service that isnt profitable (like meal service), slashing it to pieces makes it better. Now its less expensive to offer, but at a certain point why have it at all? We then see the service fail, management says its not profitable, and a couple years later its round two. Eventually Amtrak just becomes a skeleton, and you might as well eliminate it altogether.

We don't know for sure what inventory of meal packs they will load. In theory at least, they have said that meal packs left after serving Sleeper passengers will be available for sale, which is basically the same thing as what happens for Coach passengers to get access to the Diner. Now whether sufficient additional meal packs will be loaded in the inventory for significant access via sale by Coach passengers will remain unknown until this thing is seen in operation.

Just like a legislation was used to throw this monkey wrench in the statute, "we the people" can cause another legislation to change the statute to remove the break even requirement and moreover specify minimum level of service that must be provided, perhaps defining limits on what level of subsidies can be used for such. This is to some extent, and should be to a greater extent a subject of discussion to resolve this issue for good going forward at the next legislative opportunity. My worry is that by then there may be nothing left to save. Just keeping fingers crossed for the moment and hoping all will join in for every tactical means to protect as much as we can until then.

 

[seat38a]

At minimum they really should allow for free cancellations. Maybe if you make a big fuss with customer relations, they'll give in.

By way of example, this is a reasonable ask, and something that Amtrak should do.

Disputing with your credit card is a whole different story. You bought a ticket to get you from Point A to Point B - that's still going to happen.

When I look at the trains and diners of other nations it is simply astounding how my quality some of them have

Don't know how I missed this one. I'm updating my list again.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/72759-amtraks-new-fresh-choices-dining-on-cl-lsl/page-7&do=findComment&comment=750094

 

[Chey]

This may be a trade I can deal with if all of the whiners that eternally claim that they are going to stop riding actually do so, and stop posting here in the process.

AMEN! Thank you!!

 

[jis]

This may be a trade I can deal with if all of the whiners that eternally claim that they are going to stop riding actually do so, and stop posting here in the process.

AMEN! Thank you!!

Hey, it is more often than not just an idle threat (I am taking my bat and ball home) rather than a real promise that can be banked. Then again sometimes it is serious, and sometimes de facto it works out that way since one does not have enough money to do anything else anyway

 

[Lonestar648]

Other country public rail systems are subsidized. These systems serve the public making convenient stops that are unprofitable due to the number of passengers.

Outsourcing the Dining Car will not bring the 3 million dollar savings they are expecting now. The Outsourcing vendors is going to want a guaranteed number of passengers coming the Dining Car, which means Amtrak would have to entice people into the diner. I don't see this working out to achieve the benefit Amtrak needs.

 

[acelafan]

I'm really disappointed with this change. I liked the watching the countryside pass while enjoying a hot meal and meeting new people (but then escaping back to my room at times).

Question - I live in a state whose senators despise Amtrak and its horrid 'waste'. What's the best action for me to take - obviously write Amtrak and make a big donation to RPA (NARP)?

 

[Devil's Advocate]

This may be a trade I can deal with if all of the whiners that eternally claim that they are going to stop riding actually do so, and stop posting here in the process.

AMEN! Thank you!!

Yes, let us hope and pray that everyone who sees a flaw in Amtrak simply gives up and leaves rather than mention it where some straw man stuffing apologist might see it.

 

[PVD]

DownEaster is outsourced. It loses a good bit of money anyway. The agencies are fine with that because their studies indicate that the additional traffic generated by having decent food service, and the higher prices they can charge because train have that service more than offset the losses. In other words, even though they lose money on food, it is less than they would lose without it. All outsourcing usually does is give the money gained by screwing a bunch of workers to another layer of management and investors. If the only way to have a service exist is to do it on the backs of its employees, its existence is not justified.

 

[seat38a]

DownEaster is outsourced. It loses a good bit of money anyway. The agencies are fine with that because their studies indicate that the additional traffic generated by having decent food service, and the higher prices they can charge because train have that service more than offset the losses. In other words, even though they lose money on food, it is less than they would lose without it. All outsourcing usually does is give the money gained by screwing a bunch of workers to another layer of management and investors. If the only way to have a service exist is to do it on the backs of its employees, its existence is not justified.

As jis has pointed out about the flexibility of the Auto Train Unionized workers, if the rest of the system was a bit more flexible like they are, then I'm sure things just might have been different.

Also, as I pointed out way earlier on this topic regarding my last two experience. The dining car staff did absolutely NOTHING to endear any sympathy for themselves or for me to advocate for their continual existence on my last two train trips. If getting paid a fair wage + tips + benefits equates to nasty service and just a nasty human being, then using your own words: its existence is not justified.

 

[jis]

The problem we are facing is lack of an eco-system based thinking. Instead it is too much compartmentalized and LOB structured thinking while insisting on unrealistic financial goals for each LOB to the detriment of the well being of the eco-system. We have managed to screw the pooch of many otherwise well run businesses too due to such errors of the way in which things are managed.

 

[chrsjrcj]

IMO, I would like to see the following 4 things happen:

1) Hot meals added. At least something equal to what is offered on the Acela Express in FC.

2) Congress repeals the F&B mandate. Considering the additional money Amtrak was granted and the fact that Mr. Mica is out of the House, it might just be possible.

3) Once there are enough Viewliner Diners, expand this program to the Silver Star. It's better than what is currently offered!

4) Better accommodate coach passengers. Maybe the attendant can bring the meal to the seat, similar to programs already trialed on LD trains. They are certainly leaving money on the table by restricting this to sleeping car passengers only.

 

[chrsjrcj]

Also, you can't tell me that with 47 years of data, Amtrak doesn't know what amount of additional food in the dining car to allocate to coach passengers. In fact, I would think it would be easier than a traditional restaurant considering train load is known in advanced.

 

[seat38a]

IMO, I would like to see the following 4 things happen:

1) Hot meals added. At least something equal to what is offered on the Acela Express in FC.

2) Congress repeals the F&B mandate. Considering the additional money Amtrak was granted and the fact that Mr. Mica is out of the House, it might just be possible.

3) Once there are enough Viewliner Diners, expand this program to the Silver Star. It's better than what is currently offered!

4) Better accommodate coach passengers. Maybe the attendant can bring the meal to the seat, similar to programs already trialed on LD trains. They are certainly leaving money on the table by restricting this to sleeping car passengers only.

They weren't given more money to blow it away faster. There are plenty of other things the money is better suited for like those rattles and needed fixes in the sleeper. The wheels not falling off the trains is VASTLY more important than any hot meal.

 

[chrsjrcj]

IMO, I would like to see the following 4 things happen:

1) Hot meals added. At least something equal to what is offered on the Acela Express in FC.

2) Congress repeals the F&B mandate. Considering the additional money Amtrak was granted and the fact that Mr. Mica is out of the House, it might just be possible.

3) Once there are enough Viewliner Diners, expand this program to the Silver Star. It's better than what is currently offered!

4) Better accommodate coach passengers. Maybe the attendant can bring the meal to the seat, similar to programs already trialed on LD trains. They are certainly leaving money on the table by restricting this to sleeping car passengers only.

They weren't given more money to blow it away faster. There are plenty of other things the money is better suited for like those rattles and needed fixes in the sleeper. The wheels not falling off the trains is VASTLY more important than any hot meal.

Why does it have to be either/or? Amtrak should be taking care of their equipment, while also providing a level of "service that exceeds customer expectations." That last part is straight from their mission statement.

 

[spinnaker]

Other country public rail systems are subsidized. These systems serve the public making convenient stops that are unprofitable due to the number of passengers.

Outsourcing the Dining Car will not bring the 3 million dollar savings they are expecting now. The Outsourcing vendors is going to want a guaranteed number of passengers coming the Dining Car, which means Amtrak would have to entice people into the diner. I don't see this working out to achieve the benefit Amtrak needs.

But Amtrak is also subsidized. Our problem here is the vast space that needs to be served. For example, you can go from Milan to Naples in less than a day and still get in early enough to have dinner in town. While train service in euro countries are excellent they are really only serving a tiny fraction of what is being down here.

 

[seat38a]

IMO, I would like to see the following 4 things happen:

1) Hot meals added. At least something equal to what is offered on the Acela Express in FC.

2) Congress repeals the F&B mandate. Considering the additional money Amtrak was granted and the fact that Mr. Mica is out of the House, it might just be possible.

3) Once there are enough Viewliner Diners, expand this program to the Silver Star. It's better than what is currently offered!

4) Better accommodate coach passengers. Maybe the attendant can bring the meal to the seat, similar to programs already trialed on LD trains. They are certainly leaving money on the table by restricting this to sleeping car passengers only.

They weren't given more money to blow it away faster. There are plenty of other things the money is better suited for like those rattles and needed fixes in the sleeper. The wheels not falling off the trains is VASTLY more important than any hot meal.

Why does it have to be either/or? Amtrak should be taking care of their equipment, while also providing a level of "service that exceeds customer expectations." That last part is straight from their mission statement.

The DMV and the IRS have mission statements as well, so whats your point?

Why does it have to be either/or? Amtrak should be taking care of their equipment,

Are you seriously asking this question?

Where's the money????

 

[chrsjrcj]

Why does it have to be either/or? Amtrak should be taking care of their equipment,

Are you seriously asking this question?

Where's the money????

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/2018/03/21/amtrak-gets-nearly-2-billion-federal-spending/447301002/

 

[Bill M.]

Just a short time ago, I rued the loss of the Pacific Coast Parlor Car, one of that last vestiges of the great days of train Travel. Now I am sad to see that the Dining car of the Capitol Limited is gone as of June 1. First Class Passengers will have a choice of two cold meals in the cafe car. Dreaded Airline food is at least often hot.

The Capitol Limited is one of the least publicly admired routes, but it is also one of the best trips on Amtrak. One leaves busy DC - going over the stopped traffic on the beltway, giving you the chance to love train travel just a bit more, then, at dusk, one looks down on the Historic village of Harper's Ferry. Then up the quiet, lovely Potomac, and a pleasant dinner with new friends before bunking down before the sorry roadbed in the PA rust belt. You awake with Lake Erie out the Starboard side, then industrial Indiana and bustling Chicago! What a wonderful trip.

The person in the WH said he would get rid of Amtrak forever. He's doing just that; cutting funding, and the new CEO, Richard Anderson (of Delta and Northwest Airlines) is slowly removing one of the last of America's historic and beautiful treasures.

Does anyone think that those of us who love these trains aren't noticing? We are.