Another study of Gulf Coast rail proposed

[CHamilton]

Bill calls for study of bringing Amtrak back

PANAMA CITY — Efforts to restore a passenger rail line between Orlando and New Orleans received a nod from Congress last week as representatives approved a bipartisan bill that would launch a study to explore the feasibility of the service.

Publicly funded rail company Amtrak operated a rail line between Jacksonville and New Orleans prior to Hurricane Katrina, but service has not been restored since the storm knocked out operations nearly a decade ago. The rails have since been repaired, but are not currently used by passenger trains.

Developing the "Gulf Coast Passenger Rail" has emerged as a top priority for the Southern Rail Commission, a group charged with promoting safe and efficient transportation in the region. The group is proposing a route that would run from Orlando to Jacksonville, and across the Florida Panhandle, Alabama and Mississippi to end in New Orleans.

 

[MattW]

If it's going to be a separate train, I they'd be better off trying for Miami-Jacksonville-NOL on the FEC, though that may get a bit long.

 

[Ispolkom]

Studies are where initiatives go to die. The sponsoring legislator gets to tell his constituents that he's done something (gotten the study), and in the end, nothing happens.

Twas ever thus.

 

[jis]

If it's going to be a separate train, I they'd be better off trying for Miami-Jacksonville-NOL on the FEC, though that may get a bit long.

It would not be a good idea to tie the NOL - JAX service to an FEC service at this point. Not clear if it would be a good idea at any point to miss Orlando on a single frequency anyway.

JAX - MIA via FEC is better served by a section of the Atlantic Coast trains, of which there are at least two and potentially three, rather than by the single NOL train.

 

[Ziv]

Does the fact that the trip distance would be below 750 miles (695'ish) help or hurt? Would it help to dip down close to Panama City or would the higher route be where the route would probably go? Tallahassee, Pensacola, Mobile seem to be good cities to hit but Panama City is just far enough south that I wonder if it would be worth it to try to serve it. And I have no clue if the rails are in place and in condition to run passenger rail at a decent speed for PC.

It would be cool to see that gap in Amtrak's map covered, but I am not holding my breath.

 

[OlympianHiawatha]

Studies are where initiatives go to die. The sponsoring legislator gets to tell his constituents that he's done something (gotten the study), and in the end, nothing happens.

Twas ever thus.

And studies are where money goes to be flushed down the toilet. I cannot even begin to count how many studie regarding extending the Heartland Flyer into Kansas have been conducted over the past 10 or so years and we still haven't seen a thing come of them. Other than endless millions of dollars flushed.

 

[jis]

Does the fact that the trip distance would be below 750 miles (695'ish) help or hurt? Would it help to dip down close to Panama City or would the higher route be where the route would probably go? Tallahassee, Pensacola, Mobile seem to be good cities to hit but Panama City is just far enough south that I wonder if it would be worth it to try to serve it. And I have no clue if the rails are in place and in condition to run passenger rail at a decent speed for PC.

It would be cool to see that gap in Amtrak's map covered, but I am not holding my breath.

You don't get to dip down to random places. All that you get to do is follow the existing track. Chipley FL was the stop for Panama City when the train ran. There is a Short Line named The Bay Line Railroad that runs down to Panama City from the CSX mailine junction at Cottondale, but doing a jog down it and back seems pretty impractical.

NOL - JAX would be less than 750 miles, but NOL - ORL would be more than 750 miles. So depending on who is able to fund it, it could either be made part of the national network or be a PRIIA 209 train, just with an appropriate endpoint to meet the needs.

To run to ORL reliably it does take one additional consist. And if you must add a consist then you might as well run it all the way to Miami and increase the overall utilization of the consists, instead of having them sit around doing nothing most part of the day in/around Orlando. Or at least do a day round trip to Tampa or some such.

 

[abcnews]

Heres a clever idea

1. Change the Silver Star to end in Tampa (savings to Amtrak $$)

2. Add a daily train from NOL to Jacksonville to Miami via FEC

3. Have both the Silver Star and the brand new "NOL to Jacksonville to Miami" trains meet in Jacksonville to allow transfer.

Then passengers from NOL, Mobile and FL Panhandle could transfer to the Star to go to Orlando, Lakeland and Tampa (nice)

And passengers from the Star can transfer over to the new NOL - Jacksonville to Miami train for Miami and FEC destinations.

 

[jis]

How does terminating anything in Tampa save money? You'd have to setup maintenance facility and crew base and on and on, no? I thought in the first place they stopped terminating in Tampa to save money. What has suddenly changed?

Trying to tie any NOL Florida service to JAX - MIA via FEC almost guarantees a delay of 5+ years. The FEC part is at least 5 or more years away at present, well after AAF goes into service and online station demands post Phase II on the AAF route as well as Tri Rail on FEC, are satisfied.

 

[MikefromCrete]

It's interesting how people think making a train into a "more than 750 mile" train will make it easier to implement. Unless Congress comes up with a specific appropriation to fund such a train, it ain't going to happen. Of course, Amtrak could kill a train somewhere else or eliminate all food service or something to come up with the funds, but I don't think that would be better than filling this "hole in the map" that so many people obsess about.

 

[Paulus]

Studies are where initiatives go to die. The sponsoring legislator gets to tell his constituents that he's done something (gotten the study), and in the end, nothing happens.

Twas ever thus.

And studies are where money goes to be flushed down the toilet. I cannot even begin to count how many studie regarding extending the Heartland Flyer into Kansas have been conducted over the past 10 or so years and we still haven't seen a thing come of them. Other than endless millions of dollars flushed.

We're on study #9 since 1981 that I know about for Coachella Valley service in California. It just all gets to be a bit absurd.

 

[jis]

It's interesting how people think making a train into a "more than 750 mile" train will make it easier to implement. Unless Congress comes up with a specific appropriation to fund such a train, it ain't going to happen. Of course, Amtrak could kill a train somewhere else or eliminate all food service or something to come up with the funds, but I don't think that would be better than filling this "hole in the map" that so many people obsess about.

Actually that is not true. If Congress simply puts in a clause in the appropriation which says something to the effect that unless thus and such is done some specified amount won't be released, that should be enough for thus and such to be done, specially if the amount that is rescinded is painfully large. They might skin many a cat with the same clever.

Of course given that you are dealing with Alabama, Louisiana and Florida, arguably in all likelihood, getting federal fund wither this way or that is the only way this will happen. And of course most likely they won't lift a finger to get such fund, specially in case of Louisiana and Alabama. In the case of Florida Mica might get incentivized enough to push through an amendment in the House over the objections of the likes of Rubio in Senate, Nelson will most likely support such in Senate.

 

[neroden]

Do you think there's any possibility of the Gulf Coast cities funding a New Orleans-Mobile route on their own (without the states)? That is a heck of a lot of cities, and they're substantial cities too. The route's good enough in that section that the annual costs of operation might be relatively low.

Oddly, however, I am seeing more backing for revival from the *Florida* end of things.

 

[Bob Dylan]

If the Casinos along the Gulf Coast would help fund it perhaps this would satisfy Mississippi's funding, but with the current political climate from La. to FL. the chances of any of these states kicking in is slim and none!

And most cities are broke since they used to get funding from the Feds and the State that doesn't come their way anymore!( ie no earmarks, no money for infrastructure, transportation etc.)

 

[west point]

Tampa cannot be a termination. Over 1/2 of all passengers go from Tampa to south Florida. Any elimination of Tampa - MIA would reduce revenue far more than reduced expenses.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Here is something from the NARP, even though I'm kind of split on this whole thing, ten years later.

http://www.narprail.org/hotline--blog/gulf-coast-service-this-time-it-actually-is-different

 

[jis]

The difference is we might get a slightly less daunting set of numbers. But until someone brings some money to the discussion nothing beyond another report will happen. And since who is exactly going to lead the effort is a bit fuzzy we might spend a couple of years figuring that out.

 

[dlagrua]

You can take what NARP says with a grain of salt. I cannot point to anything that association has ever accomplished but giving out info on current events. They have good intentions but they have no money. If they were a rich organization with tons of money and lobbyists, you'd see how fast things would get done. These studies, and fact finding committees that are funded by congress only serve one purpose; to put a few million into the hands of friends and to receive a "feel good" report that goes nowhere.

 

[xyzzy]

The outlook for financial support from Mississippi and Alabama is not good, particularly if the train runs through those states in the middle of the night.

What's more feasible is a day train New Orleans-Mobile, or possibly New Orleans-Jacksonviile although that's really too far for a day train eastbound.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

The outlook for financial support from Mississippi and Alabama is not good, particularly if the train runs through those states in the middle of the night.

What's more feasible is a day train New Orleans-Mobile, or possibly New Orleans-Jacksonviile although that's really too far for a day train eastbound.

When the Sunset ran east of New Orleans, Amtrak did have the short lived Gulf Coast Limited, which ran from New Orleans to Mobile. I don't know how it performed, but it only lasted a year before being discontinued. Maybe a resurrection of that route in some form could be in order, but $$$ and who is willing to pay for it is another thing.

 

[Hytec]

20+ years ago there was a daily train between Mobile and New Orleans started for the Worlds Fair in NOL. It had three partly filled coaches when it started in August. It was up to five fully occupied coaches by Christmas, an increase of over 100% in just four months. Then during the week between Christmas and New Years CSX shut down the line twenty miles east of NOL for bridge maintenance, with no notification by AMTRAK. When the train was reinstated after New Years, there were barely enough riders to fill one coach. The train was cancelled in March due to low ridership. A railroad MUST provide reliable service, or there will be NO riders...period.

First, our leaders and legislators must recognize AMTRAK as public transportation, and fund it accordingly, as they do for airlines, highways, and light rail. Then we, the traveling public, must use passenger trains...if they are reliable.

 

[west point]

To all the people wanting New Orleans - Jacksonville it is easy to do just ------------.

1. Get a study that will justify this route over other routes wanting service or additional service.

2. Get money for additional equipment as there is not any spare equipment (summers & holidays ) since now there is more passengers requiring current equipment and some equipment has been damaged and out of service.

3. determine how there is any spare manufacturing capacity for any more passenger equipment as Amtrak, California, and the Midwest coalition has tied up all building capacity. That is for both locos and passenger cars.

4. Steal appropriations from other agencies that want to implement their own RR service. See your congressman.

5. Get the necessary money to rebuild proposed stations that have been destroyed / eliminated for whatever reason realizing that they will have to be ADA compliant.

6. Get CSX to agree to allow train and get money for whatever improvements and / or repairs necessary.

 

[xyzzy]

Flomaton-Tallahassee is still dark territory. There were indications that Flomaton-Pensacola and Chattahoochee-Tallahassee were getting signals, but that's not PTC -- and it still leaves a big gap in the middle.

 

[WICT106]

To all the people wanting New Orleans - Jacksonville it is easy to do just ------------.

1. Get a study that will justify this route over other routes wanting service or additional service.

2. Get money for additional equipment as there is not any spare equipment (summers & holidays ) since now there is more passengers requiring current equipment and some equipment has been damaged and out of service.

3. determine how there is any spare manufacturing capacity for any more passenger equipment as Amtrak, California, and the Midwest coalition has tied up all building capacity. That is for both locos and passenger cars.

4. Steal appropriations from other agencies that want to implement their own RR service. See your congressman.

5. Get the necessary money to rebuild proposed stations that have been destroyed / eliminated for whatever reason realizing that they will have to be ADA compliant.

6. Get CSX to agree to allow train and get money for whatever improvements and / or repairs necessary.

To this I would like to add:

7. The route must have daily, and daytime, service.

8. Cab Signals.

9. Some sort of "protection" train consist, for when the Sunset Ltd. arrives late in New Orleans.

 

[twa904]

Could the SL or some other train operated from NO to ORL operate over tracks owned by a class

2 railroad. In Atmore, which is 48 miles due north of Pensacola you have a junction of the Alabama & Gulf Coast Railroad and CSX. It would require some backing but there is a wye to turn the train in the proper direction. The distance to back from the wye to the shack Amtrak has in Atmore is a quarter mile at most. I do not know the class of the AGR tracks. They are mostly flat and straight and there is probably more that one train a day in each direction on the GAR track.

Looking at the last timetable when the SL was suspended, if this could be done, you could maybe save about 30 to 45 minutes westbound and about 2 hours eastbound timewise.

Bring back the Sunset Limited.