Article on Border Train Inspections in Sun NYT

[PaulDow]

There's an article in today's New York Times on the US border patrol and how they get on the Lake Shore Limited to get people. It's too bad that they screwed up and didn't stop them at the border so they have to harass train passengers.

 

[dlagrua]

The TSA at the airports has procedures so gross, so dehumanizing that I refuse to fly. Those people are uncouth. Border agents on Amtrak is just more proof that the USA is on its way to becoming a police state. Secure the borders with fences and you won't have to harass law abiding citizens.

 

[amamba]

Interesting quote from the article:

The patrol says that answering agents’ questions is voluntary, part of a “consensual and nonintrusive conversation”.

So what happens if you refuse to answer their questions? Something tells me it wouldn't go so well....

 

[rrdude]

Ugh, I almost puked when I read the NYT article. You can bet yer arse I will refuse to answer ANY questions, if I am ever asked, from immigration while on board Amtrak. Yes, I know they could ruin my trip, but I can also take up an inordinate amount of their time.

Can you say "***** State"? No wait, not sure we can say that on this board. It might offend SOMEone, someone who thinks it is childish and rude to compare the US Boarder Patrol with N.A.Z.I. controlled security force.

Build the fence around the border, secure it, and unless you have "reasonable suspicion" that I am an illegal alien, don't you dare ask me for ID, or anything else...............

 

[jis]

The TSA at the airports has procedures so gross, so dehumanizing that I refuse to fly. Those people are uncouth. Border agents on Amtrak is just more proof that the USA is on its way to becoming a police state. Secure the borders with fences and you won't have to harass law abiding citizens.

How will securing the border with fences stop people overstaying their status beats me. A few that are described in the article entered the US legally and then overstayed. Sometimes this happens due to the incompetence of the very agency that is huffing and puffing about it. In course of 7 years that I was a non-immigrant F-1 and H-1 INS managed to lose my file 4 times, twice of those while they were trying to process my fully legally filed status extension request, and once while they were trying to register my labor certification in the Green Card application process. So the story is much murkier than you think it is. The incompetence at DHS is absolutely phenomenal when it comes to dealing with immigration issues.

On one point I agree. The US is indeed starting to look more and more like Russia of yore.... See for example the following from the article:

When the answer came back, “the U.S.,” they moved on. But Ruth Fernandez, 60, a naturalized citizen born in Ecuador, was asked for identification. And though she was only traveling home to New York City from her sister’s in Ohio, she had made sure to carry her American passport. On earlier trips, she said, agents had photographed her, and taken away a nervous Hispanic man.

Need I explain further why I carry my papers on my body at all times? If you are a naturalized citizen and cannot honestly say that you were born in this country, you better carry your paperwork along with you. Most fortunately, many states now issue a special driver's license that can be used to cross the Canadian border. Such a license would suffice, and at a pinch even a regular license from a state like New Jersey, which requires residency status verification could suffice.

So what is happening is that while a national ID card is not allowed by law, we have an equivalent through the back door.

 

[LA Resident]

There's an article in today's New York Times on the US border patrol and how they get on the Lake Shore Limited to get people. It's too bad that they screwed up and didn't stop them at the border so they have to harass train passengers.

I notice from the NY Times piece that there's a nice photograph of the LS at a station with Border Patrol officers talking to a South Asian family while an Amtrak employee stands at the boarding steps to a coach.

I wonder whether she gave her permission for the photo! :lol: Or maybe the Border Patrol guys overruled her? :huh:

 

[DivMiler]

I suggest you all click on the link to the Syracuse University student's 5-minute multimedia essay from 2008 ("Caught in Transit"). It is pretty interesting (though I, too, wonder about getting permission from all the people in the pictures for publishing it on the Web).

 

[jis]

I suggest you all click on the link to the Syracuse University student's 5-minute multimedia essay from 2008 ("Caught in Transit"). It is pretty interesting (though I, too, wonder about getting permission from all the people in the pictures for publishing it on the Web).

If the photograph is taken in a public area, and the person in question is not the primary focus of the picture, I don't believe you need to get permission.

 

[Ryan]

I suggest you all click on the link to the Syracuse University student's 5-minute multimedia essay from 2008 ("Caught in Transit"). It is pretty interesting (though I, too, wonder about getting permission from all the people in the pictures for publishing it on the Web).

If the photograph is taken in a public area, and the person in question is not the primary focus of the picture, I don't believe you need to get permission.

Unless you're using your photos for commercial gain, you can take pictures of anything that you see from a public space.

 

[Bob Dylan]

Looks like the right wing hate merchants have succeded in making Immigration a "hot button" topic in the same catagory as guns,race and religion.I really think that jis has the best perspective on this since we native born,anglo citizens have really never had to face any kind of SS type harrasement except when entering the US from abroad, and not often even then as long as our passport is in order and we are not on any "lists"!

My perspective is that I expect all Government agents and LE officers to be polite,professional and treat everyone equally which means that we anglo/native born citizens might have to answer a few questions or show our "papers" when ask! So what, believe me the hassle is not worth it if you develop an attitude or try to argue or be abusive to these folks! ("we have ways toi make you talk" is not a joke anymore!)Id suggest carrying your passport, answering whatever you are asked, dont volunteer any information not asked for and then go on your way whether it's on a train, in a car, plane or entering the country!

 

[leemell]

Interesting quote from the article:

The patrol says that answering agents’ questions is voluntary, part of a “consensual and nonintrusive conversation”.

So what happens if you refuse to answer their questions? Something tells me it wouldn't go so well....

If they choose to enforce it, there are two questions that CPB and ICE can ask and must be answered (by Federal law and Supreme Court decision): "Where were you born?" and "Are you and American citizen?".

 

[AlanB]

Secure the borders with fences and you won't have to harass law abiding citizens.

How will securing the border with fences stop people overstaying their status beats me.

We already have fences on the Mexico border. They stop no one as has been proven time & time again.

Besides, good luck installng a fence in Lake Ontario.

 

[George Harris]

Looks like the right wing hate merchants have succeded in making Immigration a "hot button" topic in the same catagory as guns,race and religion.I really think that jis has the best perspective on this since we native born,anglo citizens have really never had to face any kind of SS type harrasement except when entering the US from abroad, and not often even then as long as our passport is in order and we are not on any "lists"!

Please take your political rants elsewhere. Also, you know not whereof you speak. Try going through any airport security in the US if you have metal in your body.

 

[jis]

I suggest you all click on the link to the Syracuse University student's 5-minute multimedia essay from 2008 ("Caught in Transit"). It is pretty interesting (though I, too, wonder about getting permission from all the people in the pictures for publishing it on the Web).

If the photograph is taken in a public area, and the person in question is not the primary focus of the picture, I don't believe you need to get permission.

Unless you're using your photos for commercial gain, you can take pictures of anything that you see from a public space.

OK. I stand corrected. In general, if I am taking picture of someone as the central subject of a photo I tend to ask them as a matter of courtesy. It is a habit formed of dealing with many cultures, in case of some where getting photographed is considered negatively. I have no reason to offend individuals like that personally.

 

[Ryan]

Oh, I absolutely agree on the courtesy aspect of taking pictures of people in public but the legality of it is a whole other matter.

 

[jis]

Interesting quote from the article:

The patrol says that answering agents’ questions is voluntary, part of a “consensual and nonintrusive conversation”.

So what happens if you refuse to answer their questions? Something tells me it wouldn't go so well....

If they choose to enforce it, there are two questions that CPB and ICE can ask and must be answered (by Federal law and Supreme Court decision): "Where were you born?" and "Are you and American citizen?".

Actually, strictly speaking the only two questions that ought to be of importance are:

1. Are you an American citizen?

2. If not then is your status in this country current?

Having been born does not mean a hill of beans since anyone born of parents born elsewhere can inevitably select their citizenship between US and wherever their parents are from when they get to be 18 or something like that. And depending on the rules of the game, they may have to give up their US citizenship to get the other citizenship, just like US insists on giving up the other citizenship when you take on US citizenship. But then reclaiming the other citizenship provided you don't have to renounce the US one seems to be all right by the US. That's how people get dual citizenship.

But then, asking for evidence to back up the answer is no different than the famous "vos papiers?" that the French Gendarme ask in the streets around Porte de Clignancourt, or the Russian police asks of people entering Kievskyi Voxhall just as random examples.

 

[the_traveler]

Try going through any airport security in the US if you have metal in your body.

I have a metal plate and metal screws in my leg. I was even given a card from my doctor in case I need to prove it. They NEVER set off any metal detectors!

 

[jis]

Try going through any airport security in the US if you have metal in your body.

I have a metal plate and metal screws in my leg. I was even given a card from my doctor in case I need to prove it. They NEVER set off any metal detectors!

Must be the wrong kind of metal :giggle:

 

[George Harris]

Try going through any airport security in the US if you have metal in your body.

I have a metal plate and metal screws in my leg. I was even given a card from my doctor in case I need to prove it. They NEVER set off any metal detectors!

Interesting. Seems that not all metals are equal. Due to a car accident, I have a metal bar 6 to 8 inches long on my left femer with a few screws to hold the bone, with a bolt about 2 inches long into the hip. It has been there since 1982, and up until about 8 or so years ago never caused anything to beep in the airports. For the last few years, it gets picked up every time.

 

[guest]

Try going through any airport security in the US if you have metal in your body.

I have a metal plate and metal screws in my leg. I was even given a card from my doctor in case I need to prove it. They NEVER set off any metal detectors!

Oh. Hey, thanks for clearing that up. I always thought they were mental detectors :help:

 

[the_traveler]

Should I mention the plate in my head - that I had specifically tuned to all the AAR frequencies?

 

[RRrich]

I've gone thru lots of mental detectors - they never spotted anything.

 

[jis]

I've gone thru lots of mental detectors - they never spotted anything.

Wrong kind of mental :giggle:

 

[Donctor]

There's an article in today's New York Times on the US border patrol and how they get on the Lake Shore Limited to get people. It's too bad that they screwed up and didn't stop them at the border so they have to harass train passengers.

I hope I don't get any problems from border patrol people when I take 448 next week. I'm checking a drum kit (as separate pieces), a trunk, an amplifier, and a whole bunch of other stuff. (I'm moving.)

 

[sportbiker]

OK. I stand corrected. In general, if I am taking picture of someone as the central subject of a photo I tend to ask them as a matter of courtesy. It is a habit formed of dealing with many cultures, in case of some where getting photographed is considered negatively. I have no reason to offend individuals like that personally.

Shoot digital. It doesn't produce negatives.