Biden Infrastructure Details

[jiml]

Well what it would really take is for us to reduce the security theater on the northern border. The thing about the security theater and it doesn't matter which border you are at if someone is determined to get by it they will. There are plenty of good liars out there, and plenty of people who know how to cheat the system. So should we take border security seriously yes we should. But it's at the point it's almost ridiculous. I should not be asked about my sex life at the Canadian border.

I'm old enough to remember when border formalities took 30 seconds and were usually accompanied by a friendly wave in both directions. @MARC Rider wrote an excellent summary in another thread on how the situation devolved over the years. September 11 was certainly a contributing factor, but not the only one. Politics and differing immigration policies have played a role, but the largest single factor has been the two border agencies continually striving to "one-up" each other.

 

[Tlcooper44]

I was expecting more for 2 trillion dollars. Surprised not more talk of high speed rail, though I know the House passed a 200 Billion high speed rail bill that will probably go nowhere.

and why no high speed rail????

I'm actually glad that it doesn't directly mention High Speed Rail. Those words are best never mentioned in today's climate. Its synonymous with boondoggle in some people's minds, and if it were written into the plan, I have a feeling it would stick out like a sore thumb and draw more opposition, with people referencing California faster than we can even predict.

I hope Brightline and Texas Central get a piece of this too.

As far as I'm concerned, they are determined to prove themselves with private money. Let them be. Amtrak has gotten the short end of the stick for too long. If they succeed, it will help provide a proving ground for HSR in America. If not, at least government cash won't be involved and give an opportunity for people to bash rail even more.

 

[MARC Rider]

and why no high speed rail????

You have to learn to walk before you can run. And learn to crawl before you can walk. American expertise in running passenger rail of any kind is in that league.

Also, given the problems they're having in California with their high speed rail system, advocating "high speed rail" is asking for trouble. There are influential people who've made opposition to "high speed rail" an ideological litmus test. We need to get more Americans used to merely having fast (maximum average speed 60-70 mph) frequent service. All it needs to be is faster than driving and frequent enough so that people aren't tempted to drive because they can make their own schedules.

 

[MARC Rider]

Politics and differing immigration policies have played a role, but the largest single factor has been the two border agencies continually striving to "one-up" each other.

If that's really the case, then some heads need to be knocked together by someone at the highest political level. Interagency rivalries are among the more destructive aspects of dysfunctional government. Not just these two agencies, but (in the USA, at least) the inability of the FBI and CIA to get together about sharing intelligence (which may have contributed to 9/11) and the interservice rivalries among the various branches of the military (which is why we spend zillions of fancy military hardware we don't need.)

 

[frequentflyer]

Based on what?


I thought Brightline and Texas Central were supposed to be poster children for the superiority of private funding.


Why were you asked about your sex life at the Canadian border?

1. Based on he's "Amtrak Joe", in the speech in Pittsburgh he stated going cross county on high speed rail, and from the hype I read in the media. Was expecting more, and I sure many other posters are thinking the same. I agree with some of the other posters that California's excellent handling of their high speed rail project has become the third rail in politics, just a shame a think tank (they come up with this stuff) could not come up with a bold plan. Its 2 trillion dollar infrastructure bill.

2. You have a problem with private money building infrastructure? Companies get tax payer money all the time. Brightline and Texas Central should get theirs.

 

[Tlcooper44]

1. Based on he's "Amtrak Joe", in the speech in Pittsburgh he stated going cross county on high speed rail, and from the hype I read in the media. Was expecting more, and I sure many other posters are thinking the same. I agree with some of the other posters that California's excellent handling of their high speed rail project has become the third rail in politics, just a shame a think tank (they come up with this stuff) could not come up with a bold plan. Its 2 trillion dollar infrastructure bill.

2. You have a problem with private money building infrastructure? Companies get tax payer money all the time. Brightline and Texas Central should get theirs.

While I understand your sentiment, I (respectfully) disagree.
Brightline has done just fine with "exclusively" private money. And they've had plenty of state help, so I'm not upset in the slightest that both they and TC are getting 'nothing.' If they're successful, it will reverberate throughout the US for the better. if not, at least no one can point to misplaced government spending, and advocate for decreasing Amtrak spending.

Though I love Amtrak Joe and Pete for being so pro-rail, anyone who thinks America will lead the world in HSR is on another planet. We lost that fight in 1970.

Again, HSR in America isn't going to happen without good old fashion regular rail.
Let's get 'rail' back and then we can figure out how to do HSR.

 

[jiml]

If that's really the case, then some heads need to be knocked together by someone at the highest political level.

I agree with you, but suggest we're in the minority in either country. Without getting into specific politics, the respective governments don't care as long as commerce continues to flow. The recent border closure has punctuated that discussion. Most Americans probably don't care since it doesn't affect them and Canadians that care are offset by many who would be just as happy if it stayed closed. Border formalities are way down on the list for everyone.

 

[jis]

While I understand your sentiment, I (respectfully) disagree.
Brightline has done just fine with "exclusively" private money. And they've had plenty of state help, so I'm not upset in the slightest that both they and TC are getting 'nothing.' If they're successful, it will reverberate throughout the US for the better. if not, at least no one can point to misplaced government spending, and advocate for decreasing Amtrak spending.

Does the fact that Brightline West will use CAHSR Palmdale - LAX segment and also get public money as a component of the funding for connecting to CAHSR in Palmdale count as public help that they themselves have acknowledged they will use?

The exclusively private money propaganda is mostly restricted to Florida AFAICT, and even that is not entirely true, but more about addressing the country's mindless fetish about demonizing publ;ic projects and adoring on the surface private funded stuff. And of course Brightline West is an entirely different subsidiary to which very few of the Florida Brightline statutory agreements apply anyway. They have to be a self standing company with their own funding and agreements distinct from Florida. For example, it is almost certain that they will fall under STB since they will be operating inter-state, whereas Florida is not.

 

[jis]

To provide an overall perspective for the place that Transit and Amtrak holds in the overall Biden Plan...

https://www.usatoday.com/in-depth/n...ens-plan/4820227001/?utm_source=pocket-newtab
Of course, what will pass, if anything, will be quite different from the proposal. Time to start wondering what will survive and what won't or in what proportions....

 

[Devil's Advocate]

1. Based on he's "Amtrak Joe", in the speech in Pittsburgh he stated going cross county on high speed rail, and from the hype I read in the media. Was expecting more, and I sure many other posters are thinking the same. I agree with some of the other posters that California's excellent handling of their high speed rail project has become the third rail in politics, just a shame a think tank (they come up with this stuff) could not come up with a bold plan. Its 2 trillion dollar infrastructure bill.

So your calculation of expected funding was based on (1) a nickname, (2) a reference to a project you consider a massive and useless boondoggle, and (3) articles you considered to be "media hype?" Sounds like your disappointment has more to do with the proposal not being large enough to make a bigger stink about how wasteful it is.

2. You have a problem with private money building infrastructure? Companies get tax payer money all the time. Brightline and Texas Central should get theirs.

I have a problem with privatizing profits and socializing loses.

 

[Cal]

and why no high speed rail????

We should probably optimize our current system before starting a new one...

 

[frequentflyer]

So your calculation of expected funding was based on (1) a nickname, (2) a reference to a project you consider a massive and useless boondoggle, and (3) articles you considered to be "media hype?" Sounds like your disappointment has more to do with the proposal not being large enough to make a bigger stink about how wasteful it is.


I have a problem with privatizing profits and socializing loses while singing the praises of a false solution. As much as we may criticize Amtrak at least they were able to run actual trains while Brightline and Texas Central still run nothing.

Or I just have higher expectations and really hoping for something transformational. But I see now, just more sound bites. Back to your regular programing.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Or I just have higher expectations and really hoping for something transformational. But I see now, just more sound bites. Back to your regular programing.

You've bashed our only publicly funded HSR project as a useless and wasteful boondoggle for years but now you want to throw trillions more down the same drain (or see it all rescinded again). How do you explain that?

 

[crescent-zephyr]

You've bashed our only publicly funded HSR project as a useless and wasteful boondoggle for years but now you want to throw trillions more down the same drain (or see it all rescinded again). How do you explain that?

Ironic isn’t it?

 

[Tlcooper44]

Does the fact that Brightline West will use CAHSR Palmdale - LAX segment and also get public money as a component of the funding for connecting to CAHSR in Palmdale count as public help that they themselves have acknowledged they will use?

The exclusively private money propaganda is mostly restricted to Florida AFAICT. And of course Brightline West is an entirely different subsidiary to which very few of the Florida Brightline statutory agreements apply anyway. They have to be a self standing company with their own funding and agreements distinct from Florida. For example, it is almost certain that they will fall under STB since they will be operating inter-state, whereas Florida is not.

Precisely the reason I wrote "exclusively" in quotes. Good points. I believe Brightline Florida also had some state help right?

As myself and others have said, HSR is great and we love it. But this country isn't willing to invest what is needed, let alone uphold a decent rail system.
All things considered, I admire Amtrak for what they've managed to put together on approx. 1.6B a year.

 

[jis]

Precisely the reason I wrote "exclusively" in quotes. Good points.

As myself and others have said, HSR is great and we love it. But this country isn't willing to invest what is needed, let alone uphold a decent rail system.
All things considered, I admire Amtrak for what they've managed to put together on approx. 1.6B a year.

I fully agree with that position!

While I do disagree with some of their priorities specially since the advent of one Mr. Anderson and the NEC loaded Board goading him on apparently, but all in all it is pretty remarkable for an outfit that was designed to fail and fold within five years.

 

[Bob Dylan]

South Dakota Governor Attacks Biden Infastructure Plan:

According to Newsweek( On-Line Pay Wall) Kristi Noem, R-Governor of South Dakota, attacked the Biden Infastructure Plan because the Money Scheduled to go to Amtrak doesnt include any for her State, Alaska and Hawaii!

Evidently Ms. Noem wasnt briefed by her staff on the fact that Amtrak doesnt serve Any of these 3 States!

It brings to mind Governor Sarah Palin's Infamous "Bridge to Nowhere" in Alaska!

Governor Noem is a fast rising "Star" in the GOP, and is receiving mention as a VP Cantidate in the 2024 Presidential Race.

 

[frequentflyer]

You've bashed our only publicly funded HSR project as a useless and wasteful boondoggle for years but now you want to throw trillions more down the same drain (or see it all rescinded again). How do you explain that?

Do you think every major project must end up as the CHRS, over promised and over budget (and that is really stretching the use "over budget") ? Does every HRS must do 200 mph or have catenary? No. But I guess in the world of 15 Billion dollar 2 mile tunnels, you right, 2 trillion will not buy one much anyway.

 

[frequentflyer]

South Dakota Governor Attacks Biden Infastructure Plan:

According to Newsweek( On-Line Pay Wall) Kristi Noem, R-Governor of South Dakota, attacked the Biden Infastructure Plan because the Money Scheduled to go to Amtrak doesnt include any for her State, Alaska and Hawaii!

Evidently Ms. Noem wasnt briefed by her staff on the fact that Amtrak doesnt serve Any of these 3 States!

It brings to mind Governor Sarah Palin's Infamous "Bridge to Nowhere" in Alaska!

Governor Noem is a fast rising "Star" in the GOP, and is receiving mention as a VP Cantidate in the 2024 Presidential Race.

Think tanks should REALLY vet their sound bites before sending out to politicians to be used. Or your customer ends up looking stupid.

Common sense is not so common.

 

[jis]

Does every HRS must do 200 mph or have catenary? No.

By the world definition of HSR (minimally above 155mph or some such), I think it does follow that they will have to have catenary or even more expensive LIM or some such. Of course if one defines HSR as anything above 90mph the all bets are off

According to Newsweek( On-Line Pay Wall) Kristi Noem, R-Governor of South Dakota, attacked the Biden Infastructure Plan because the Money Scheduled to go to Amtrak doesnt include any for her State, Alaska and Hawaii!

Actually all that we have are, a half baked map from Amtrak and an Infrastructure Proposal from Biden, proposing some amount of money for Amtrak and Transit.

Any connection drawn between the two is incidental, whether it was intended or unintended is still an open question. Realistically we have no idea what will actually get funded by the $80 Billion. Frankly Amtrak's map seems pretty lightweight for $80 Billion if you ask me. If that is all we will get, we should spend the $80 Billion on something else IMHO.

We should be working towards getting Amtrak dislodged from its Corridors only mindset with the threat of withholding some funding unless they do so.

As for Hawaii I would be amazed if they don't get a measurable slice of the pie from the Transit pot, as will Alaska Railroad. Amtrak's map already cover Wyoming, since the last time I looked Cheyenne is in Wyoming. Maybe Ms Noem could offer some funds to provide operating subsidy for a route into Wyoming and then we can talk. Right now it is just hollow political posturing on her part, which is not even well supported by facts.

 

[Tlcooper44]

Do you think every major project must end up as the CHRS, over promised and over budget (and that is really stretching the use "over budget") ? Does every HRS must do 200 mph or have catenary? No. But I guess in the world of 15 Billion dollar 2 mile tunnels, you right, 2 trillion will not buy one much anyway.

Defining HSR is in my mind pointless, especially for America.
The Frecciarossa, which some say is Europe's best HSR service, has similar service and speed times to the Acela on similar length corridors.

NYC - DC: 2 hours and 55 minutes to travel 203 miles

Milan - Venice: 2 hours to travel 152 miles (on their direct trains)

The Acela, whether we care to admit it or not, is a decent service that does achieve respectable speeds, even when compared to (some) European trains. Not sure why Amtrak is so obsessed with the NEC in the first place. It already works very well. They should focus on improving other corridors. If we go to Asia however, all bets are off...
If we fix the northern half of the NEC (if possible), maybe the times between BOS - NYP can improve. Also, if we can lower the price tag...

 

[jiml]

An important reminder is that very few places have HSR from end-to-end. When the TGV is approaching a metropolitan area, in most cases it's just another conventional train.

 

[IndyLions]

I’ve ridden a lot of trains in Europe, Japan and elsewhere. There are a heck of a lot more conventional trains in those places than high speed trains.

It’s all about more trains running more frequently to more places, on time. Frankly, speed is secondary at best.

 

[PaTrainFan]

I’ve ridden a lot of trains in Europe, Japan and elsewhere. There are a heck of a lot more conventional trains in those places than high speed trains.

It’s all about more trains running more frequently to more places, on time. Frankly, speed is secondary at best.

And they are relaible and comfortable. That's really what counts.

 

[Tlcooper44]

And they are relaible and comfortable. That's really what counts.

I’ve ridden a lot of trains in Europe, Japan and elsewhere. There are a heck of a lot more conventional trains in those places than high speed trains.

It’s all about more trains running more frequently to more places, on time. Frankly, speed is secondary at best.

I ride European trains very frequently. With the exception of basics (speed, frequency and cost), Amtrak sometimes provides better service.

I much prefer seats in America to Europe, and I prefer Acela service to many European carriers, especially DB, which provides a very fragmented and poor service when compared to its peers.

Trenitalia is notorious for delays, and SNCF has its pitfalls, especially when it’s not the TGV.

OBB and SBB, however, provide consistently excellent service.