Brightline Orlando extension

[cirdan]

Incidentally, the SunRail platforms, when they are built, will go in this area, separate from the Brightline station.

How many SunRail platforms will there be?

 

[user 1215]

Not likely, I think, considering that Garage C is directly connected to the station, aka Intermodal Terminal Facility.

All existing Brightline stations have paid garages; there's no free parking.

And no free parking at the airport either, for that matter.

 

[user 1215]

Please note though that OIA Terminal C is distinct from the OIA Intermodal Terminal (Brightline). They are connected by a long walkway, but they are separate terminal buildings.

It's also worth noting that the tram to the rest of the airport - and from the rest of the airport to Brightline (to stay relevant to this thread) is part of the intermodal building rather than the gate terminal.

 

[joelkfla]

It's also worth noting that the tram to the rest of the airport - and from the rest of the airport to Brightline (to stay relevant to this thread) is part of the intermodal building rather than the gate terminal.

And it's a new speedy Mitsubishi Crystal Mover, with travel time about 3.5 minutes.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

JIS - thanks for posting those photos. Looks like a nice facility, though I'm not a particularly fan of the design - I hate the carpet though it is kind of interesting in a tropical way and it seems very corporate and airport-like, which of course is appropriate because it is an airport. In fact, does it adhere to the airport design standards? But it looks like a much nicer station than many, if not most, in this country and the platforms are spacious looking, as they should be!

As a total aside I just read a review of the hotel in the old TWA terminal at JFK which was very in that style. I've been in two very nice modern train stations relatively recently in Spain (Santiago and Vigo). Wasn't impressed with the Calatrava station in Lisbon, although the concrete work was very nice on the lower levels. Madrid's airport was gorgeous - if/but very crowded, packed even - with custom made everything, even light fixtures.

Sorry, rant over.

 

[joelkfla]

JIS - thanks for posting those photos. Looks like a nice facility, though I'm not a particularly fan of the design - I hate the carpet though it is kind of interesting in a tropical way and it seems very corporate and airport-like, which of course is appropriate because it is an airport. In fact, does it adhere to the airport design standards? But it looks like a much nicer station than many, if not most, in this country and the platforms are spacious looking, as they should be!

As a total aside I just read a review of the hotel in the old TWA terminal at JFK which was very in that style. I've been in two very nice modern train stations relatively recently in Spain (Santiago and Vigo). Wasn't impressed with the Calatrava station in Lisbon, although the concrete work was very nice on the lower levels. Madrid's airport was gorgeous - if/but very crowded, packed even - with custom made everything, even light fixtures.

Sorry, rant over.

That carpeted area is not part of the actual Brightline station, but is a small public lounge space in the Intermodal Terminal. So it is, in fact, "the airport." @jis said the actual Brightline waiting area is not built out yet; I think its decor was being designed by the same firm that did their existing stations.

 

[cirdan]

As a total aside I just read a review of the hotel in the old TWA terminal at JFK which was very in that style. I've been in two very nice modern train stations relatively recently in Spain (Santiago and Vigo). Wasn't impressed with the Calatrava station in Lisbon, although the concrete work was very nice on the lower levels. Madrid's airport was gorgeous - if/but very crowded, packed even - with custom made everything, even light fixtures.

I very much appreciate Calatrava's work myself. I have been to the museum he built in Valencia many times.

I used to live in Zurich and am very familiar with the Stadlehofen suburban station there, which i believe was one of his early projects. The combination of organically shaped concrete and steel is phenomenal, and especially the lower level passage where most of the retail units are has a very warm and natural feel about it. It's almost like entering a hobbit hole.

Unfortunately, from what I understand, from a point of view crowd flow and crowd capacity the station has a number of bottlenecks, especially around the escalators to the platform, and the positioning of these is not really intuitive. I don't know to what extent this was Calatrava's doing or was part of the spec or an engineering decision. They are now planning a major rebuild of the station: They will add a fourth track underground and also increase and widen the passageways and improve the passenger flow situation. Although much of Calatrava's work will remain untouched, I understand the proposed modifications will fundamentally change the feel of the station. The architectural contract was awarded to a different architect and I understand Calatrava himself is up in arms over this.

I agree with you that his Lisbon station is a bit disappointing, in view of his other work.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

I very much appreciate Calatrava's work myself. I have been to the museum he built in Valencia many times.

I used to live in Zurich and am very familiar with the Stadlehofen suburban station there, which i believe was one of his early projects. The combination of organically shaped concrete and steel is phenomenal, and especially the lower level passage where most of the retail units are has a very warm and natural feel about it. It's almost like entering a hobbit hole.

Unfortunately, from what I understand, from a point of view crowd flow and crowd capacity the station has a number of bottlenecks, especially around the escalators to the platform, and the positioning of these is not really intuitive. I don't know to what extent this was Calatrava's doing or was part of the spec or an engineering decision. They are now planning a major rebuild of the station: They will add a fourth track underground and also increase and widen the passageways and improve the passenger flow situation. Although much of Calatrava's work will remain untouched, I understand the proposed modifications will fundamentally change the feel of the station. The architectural contract was awarded to a different architect and I understand Calatrava himself is up in arms over this.

I agree with you that his Lisbon station is a bit disappointing, in view of his other work.

I've never really been a fan of his - from what I understand the structural gestures cost a lot of build and are even more expensive - and difficult - to maintain. Of course, clients need to review the projects to make sure they function for their needs, which they often don't having been wowed by dramatic design or aesthetics. It seems to happen a lot on what often get called 'grand projects'...

 

[user 1215]

On 528 now. Looks like the track is all laid between Cocoa and MCO!!

Only a few miles remain to be ballasted.

 

[bonzoesc]

And no free parking at the airport either, for that matter.

If my fellow passengers from my ride back from Ft. Lauderdale to Miami last Saturday night are representative, none of us want Brightline passengers going from the train to the driver's seat. The bar at the Ft. Lauderdale station was bumpin', as was the first class lounge, and I'm pretty sure the cabin attendant in my car did pretty well for himself with how much product he moved in the 30 minutes I rode.

But that's intentional; places with enough people to support a deluxe train service are generally the kind of place where space is too valuable to give it away for temporary car storage. The van service wasn't bad on a Saturday morning, and while it was kind of annoying to wait ten minutes for the Metrorail home on a Saturday evening, it was cheap and easy.

 

[jis]

As for Free Parking, except as a promotion initially, I thought Brightline charged for parking unless you are traveling Premium Class. They could always arrange that even at OIA if they so choose.

 

[Anderson]

As for Free Parking, except as a promotion initially, I thought Brightline charged for parking unless you are traveling Premium Class. They could always arrange that even at OIA if they so choose.

Is it included with the fancy tickets? [I ask because that becomes a non-trivial selling point.]

 

[joelkfla]

Is it included with the fancy tickets? [I ask because that becomes a non-trivial selling point.]

I think it used to be, but is no longer (see last line in chart):

 

[Anderson]

I think it used to be, but is no longer (see last line in chart):
View attachment 29732

That's what I thought was the case. [They've also dropped the NARP discount, I think.]

 

[jphjaxfl]

I think it has to do with crossing gates (improvements to which would probably save FEC/BL some money and headaches anyway). I believe that to get over 90, you need to start improving those gates. I'm not sure that there's a lot of difference on the track side.

The other possibility is operating speed differentials if/when they add commuter service. It might just be easier to juggle trains with substantially different stopping patterns at 79 than 90 (or 110).

 

[Anderson]

If my fellow passengers from my ride back from Ft. Lauderdale to Miami last Saturday night are representative, none of us want Brightline passengers going from the train to the driver's seat. The bar at the Ft. Lauderdale station was bumpin', as was the first class lounge, and I'm pretty sure the cabin attendant in my car did pretty well for himself with how much product he moved in the 30 minutes I rode.

But that's intentional; places with enough people to support a deluxe train service are generally the kind of place where space is too valuable to give it away for temporary car storage. The van service wasn't bad on a Saturday morning, and while it was kind of annoying to wait ten minutes for the Metrorail home on a Saturday evening, it was cheap and easy.

Just wondering, but how much does it cost to upgrade from Class 4 to Class 5? (Also, I wonder if there might be plans to roll this under any commuter projects, so as to offload the relevant costs onto the governments? That'd be the logical thing to do, I suspect.)

 

[jis]

When Dade and Broward manage to complete their North East Corridor project there will be much cheaper and slower TrRail service between Miami Central and Fort Lauderdale (Brightline). These trains will have more stops than Brightline service. I don;t think Brightline will operate any West Palm Beach terminator service once Orlando is up and running. They barely have enough equipment to pull that off together with hourly Orlando service. Having said that, it is possible that initially they will do alternate hours Orlando and WPB terminators.

On another subject ... I learned from the Brightline track engineer that I spoke to the other day, that the curve where SR528 and SR407 merge is rated for 120mph with a super elevation of 6".

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Fortunately none of Brightlines spacious structures come anywhere near the dysfunction that some of Calatrava's creations appear to suffer from as a cost of the structural beauty. Saarinen's creations like the TWA terminal in JFK or the Bell Labs building in Holmdel both were the opposite of dysfunctional.

Anyway, we should perhaps return this thread to Brightline and start a separate thread to discuss Calatrava if there is much interest in continuing that discussion.

Love the Bell Labs building (and some of his furniture, either for that or his IBM buildings was great - not jus the famous stuff)!

Lets not, this will be it for design...

 

[Anderson]

When Dade and Broward manage to complete their North East Corridor project there will be much cheaper and slower TrRail service between Miami Central and Fort Lauderdale (Brightline). These trains will have more stops than Brightline service. I don;t think Brightline will operate any West Palm Beach terminator service once Orlando is up and running. They barely have enough equipment to pull that off together with hourly Orlando service. Having said that, it is possible that initially they will do alternate hours Orlando and WPB terminators.

On another subject ... I learned from the Brightline track engineer that I spoke to the other day, that the curve where SR528 and SR407 merge is rated for 120mph with a super elevation of 6".

I was sort-of suspecting the alternation plan, but that has to do with projected load patterns in their reports. Of course, I'd have to look back at their reports to see where 1.2m pax/yr lands vs their projections for the south segment...but also where it lands vs capacity. I recall noting that the projected loads WPB-FLL were such that hourly service with 7-car sets was going to be grossly insufficient.

Connected to this: A few years ago I was doing hand-counts of train seat availability prior to departure (the old website design made that easier to do) and IIRC at the pre-pandemic loads the peak-hour trains were often quite packed. Given the short trains they have now (four cars) and so on, an average of 3500 pax/day translates into a bit over 100 pax/train...but some of those off-peak trains have far fewer pax. Raw capacity right now is probably around 8-10k/day (32*248=7936, but there's obviously some seat turnover, etc.), but that's an idealized figure unlikely to manifest in reality - the 2348 out of MIA will rarely be packed in the way a rush hour train would be.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

Are there any known current bottlenecks on the Brightline route between WPB and Miami? Just curious because I rode that route a month ago and we had a couple of instances where we slowed down considerably, but never passed another train and I don't think there was a jam in terms of a train ahead of us. Certainly wasn't an uninterrupted 80mph ride but didn't seem like there were any curves that warranted such a slowdown either. Just curious if anyone knows

 

[west point]

Touchdowntom9

Are there any known current bottlenecks on the Brightline route between WPB and Miami?

The draw bridge over the New Riveer in FLL. Lots of boat.

 

[jis]

110mph testing in Brevard County this weekend (10/29-30/22)

https://www.wftv.com/news/local/sti...-s_qWBvPJmdmsAWthmbdDGYTt4spcF_42usExnqPCKf50

 

[jis]

According to posts elsewhere on various boards from usually reliable sources the timeline for work on the Cocoa - Orlando section is as follows:

- Loaded ballast train run between Orlando and Cocoa Monday - Friday and ramp up the speed to 50mph starting in December.

- Begin full corridor testing and certification in December.

- January will be 110-125mph testing.

- Open system by Valentine's Day.

 

[Palmland]

Since Brightline seems to want to make sure they address 'last mile' choices at destination I wonder what their plans are for MCO. While there will certainly be those flying in or out of there, how about those going to the Orlando area destinations. I would hope they would work with Orlando's Lynx transit to have a dedicated shuttle to the nearest Sunrail station and perhaps the theme parks.

 

[jis]

Since Brightline seems to want to make sure they address 'last mile' choices at destination I wonder what their plans are for MCO. While there will certainly be those flying in or out of there, how about those going to the Orlando area destinations. I would hope they would work with Orlando's Lynx transit to have a dedicated shuttle to the nearest Sunrail station and perhaps the theme parks.

Or they could choose to have their own fleet contracted with someone. I am not sure Lynx would be of the level of service that one comes to expect of Brightline.

I am almost certain that they will do a packaged trip to the theme parks.

I am not so sure they will do anything special with Lynx or Sunrail since the Lynx bus to OIA, including the one to/from Sandlake Road Sunrail would be available anyway at the Terminal C Intermodal Center at its regular schedule, and will provide a connection to Sunrail on the days it runs such as it does anyway.

Of course they will most likely have their standard last mile service that anyone could take to Sandlake Road Sunrail.