Brightline Trains Florida discussion 2024

[Chris I]

Stuart seems like a logical choice. And the slow single-track bridge is just north of that station location, so the time penalty will be minimal.

 

[user 1215]

This would seem to indicate that the usage of advertising wraps is not prevented by safety, aerodynamic or weight-restriction reasons, but is purely a matter of policy.

I would say that most full-body aircraft liveries are painted rather than wrapped - especially for any length of time. The implications of a wrap coming undone is super risky. Smaller decals are much more likely on aircraft.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

Two news items regarding Aventura:

• Brightline bridge to Aventura Mall due in time for holiday shopping rush Source, Miami Dade's Citizens' Independent Transportation Trust, "the 15-member body created to oversee the People's Transportation Plan funded with the half-penny sales surtax." Some turnaround on the broken promises, seems to me. Aventura is the fanciest mall in the county, but other projects are more in line with the mission.
• Aventura Brightline Station Attracts Another Big Apartment Proposal Across W. Dixie Hwy from the station, 334 units.

Duck Duck Go gave these news results. Google News gave nothing, for whatever reason.

I didn't relize until today that the co-owner of the Milwaukee Bucks co-founded Fortress and Brightline.

 

[Anderson]

Maybe also wraps present the same problem as keeping every train in a different color. It limits the ability to switch cars around between sets to suit maintenance needs.

Worse actually. If you get a hotchpotch of differently colored cars in the same set that just looks odd but does nobody any harm. But if you hotchpotch two sets of competing wraps into the same consist, the advertisers might not be amused and might be due some form of compensation.

I'm imagining a Disney wrap and a Universal wrap getting mixed up.

"Courage is...magical."

 

[SKS1944]

I'm imagining a Disney wrap and a Universal wrap getting mixed up.

"Courage is...magical."

Is anyone commenting on the passenger experience with the wrap on Brightline trains. I just took Brightline both ways (MIA to Orlando) and because you can't comfortably look out the window it feels like you are in a tomb...makes the experience really poor. Why not leave the windows free of wrap...like cruise ships do? Still looks great...

 

[user 1215]

Is anyone commenting on the passenger experience with the wrap on Brightline trains. I just took Brightline both ways (MIA to Orlando) and because you can't comfortably look out the window it feels like you are in a tomb...makes the experience really poor. Why not leave the windows free of wrap...like cruise ships do? Still looks great...

We've been talking about that for several pages now. Apparently Brightline got the message and will be cycling them off as contracts expire. New wraps should leave the windows clear.

Apparently, WPB-MIA didn't care (as much) as passengers riding north of WPB who actually have something to view.

 

[bonzoesc]

Apparently, WPB-MIA didn't care (as much) as passengers riding north of WPB who actually have something to view.

My guess is most of those passengers are commuting and had stuff to do and maybe not ideal light for looking at the backs of warehouses and traffic-jammed streets.

 

[jis]

Finally, Brightline announces commitment to a station in Cocoa.

Next stop: Cocoa.

That's the word from passenger rail company Brightline, which on Tuesday said it plans to have a Brevard County train stop at what's known as "the Cocoa curve," on land it owns in north Cocoa, though it hasn't yet said when construction would begin.

The full article from Florida Today (may be behind a pay wall)

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/...-its-rail-service/72940551007/?csp=chromepush

 

[pennyk]

Finally, Brightline announces commitment to a station in Cocoa.



The full article from Florida Today (may be behind a pay wall)

https://www.floridatoday.com/story/...-its-rail-service/72940551007/?csp=chromepush

Here is one from the Orlando Sentinel (which also may behind a pay wall)
https://www.orlandosentinel.com/202...lando_sentinel-dont_miss-nl&utm_content=alert

“Brightline is ready to begin the formal process with Space Coast stakeholders to fulfill our vision for a Brevard County station,” said Katie Mitzner, director of public affairs for Brightline in an email. “The Space Coast (Transportation Planning Organization), Brevard County, City of Cocoa and other community leaders have started to bring the region together to identify potential federal, state and local resources for a station to be located in Cocoa. We agree the time is now to finalize a plan.”

No timeline for when the Cocoa station might become reality was announced.

“The City of Cocoa has met with Brightline executives and is ready to move forward with negotiations for a Cocoa Station located near SR 528 and US 1,” said City of Cocoa Mayor Michael C. Blake in an emailed statement. “We will now begin to coordinate with community stakeholders to present a financial proposal to Brightline.”

 

[user 1215]

Finally, Brightline announces commitment to a station in Cocoa.
The full article from Florida Today (may be behind a pay wall)
https://www.floridatoday.com/story/...-its-rail-service/72940551007/?csp=chromepush

Dumb dumbs put in the wrong hyperlink for Brightline. They linked hellobrightline instead of gobrightline. Doh!

So... Any over/unders whether this will be a future "express" stop or a "local" stop if BL ever adopts super expresses?

 

[bonzoesc]

The family chat is excited about this. In terms of service, I’d guess Cocoa and Stuart might get express trains that skip Aventura but not super-expresses that skip Boca?

 

[frequentflyer]

Local news took this story up and stated if Amtrak can find the money construction could start next year..

The only thing Amtrak wants is to keep Brightline out.

 

[cirdan]

The only thing Amtrak wants is to keep Brightline out.

Why should Amtrak care about Brightline? In Florida one might argue that the Brightline service broadly duplicates an Amtrak route, and they might have reason to be concerned about competition.

But Amtrak is not even pretending to be interested in being part of the Dallas to Houston market, now that even the thruway bus is no more.

 

[Anderson]

Why should Amtrak care about Brightline? In Florida one might argue that the Brightline service broadly duplicates an Amtrak route, and they might have reason to be concerned about competition.

But Amtrak is not even pretending to be interested in being part of the Dallas to Houston market, now that even the thruway bus is no more.

Because Brightline is a serious threat to Amtrak's state sponsored corridor contracts (current and future). Brightline has already explicitly listed multiple routes that Amtrak runs as possible targets.

If Brightline were to roll up to CA with a proposal for LAX-SAN, IL for CHI-STL, or WA/OR for PDX-SEA-VAC I don't think it is hard to imagine them taking a proposal seriously.

 

[frequentflyer]

Because Brightline is a serious threat to Amtrak's state sponsored corridor contracts (current and future). Brightline has already explicitly listed multiple routes that Amtrak runs as possible targets.

If Brightline were to roll up to CA with a proposal for LAX-SAN, IL for CHI-STL, or WA/OR for PDX-SEA-VAC I don't think it is hard to imagine them taking a proposal seriously.

This

 

[jis]

This

I think of those three Brightline will not touch CHI-STL or PDX-SEA-VAC with a ten foot barge pole as long as they run on UP and BNSF trackage respectively and as long as it is not the trackage owner that is contracting directly with them. They do not suffer from some of the starry eyed naivete of some of the public outfits. LAX-SAN is much more likely as it is more or less in public control and in effect if the pubic operating district contracts it is effectively the track and dispatching owner contracting..

 

[Devil's Advocate]

The only thing Amtrak wants is to keep Brightline out.

Blunt claims need blunt evidence.

Because Brightline is a serious threat to Amtrak's state sponsored corridor contracts (current and future).

The biggest threat to Amtrak's state sponsored contracts is Amtrak.

 

[Anderson]

The biggest threat to Amtrak's state sponsored contracts is Amtrak.

Yes, but try convincing Amtrak to resolve this on their end rather than acting as a rent-seeking monopolist...

 

[railiner]

Why should Amtrak care about Brightline? In Florida one might argue that the Brightline service broadly duplicates an Amtrak route, and they might have reason to be concerned about competition.

If you mean, South Florida to Orlando, or Tampa, I don't think Amtrak is really going after that segment. It just happens to be on their thru long distance route, and I believe Amtrak would rather fill that segment with thru traveler's to points North....

The last time Amtrak targeted that market was not too successful, even with no rail competition....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Palm_(train)

 

[Anderson]

If you mean, South Florida to Orlando, or Tampa, I don't think Amtrak is really going after that segment. It just happens to be on their thru long distance route, and I believe Amtrak would rather fill that segment with thru traveler's to points North....

The last time Amtrak targeted that market was not too successful, even with no rail competition....
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver_Palm_(train)

Yes and no. The Silver Palm in question did get a half-decent cost recovery ratio (45% isn't great and I don't think Amtrak's accounting was as messed up then as it is now, but we've seen plenty worse), but it also didn't serve Orlando. Orlando-Miami is a significant market on the Meteor while Orlando-Tampa and Tampa-Miami have been non-trivial on the Star - in the top ten city pairs for the Star you have Tampa-WPB, Orlando-Tampa, Miami-Tampa, Fort Lauderdale-Tampa, and Deerfield Beach-Tampa. [1] The Meteor has similar stuff going on with Orlando (Miami, West Palm Beach, Fort Lauderdale, and Jacksonville pairs all make the top ten), and that's with the mess that the Meteor was in '22. [2]

The Tampa MSA also had about half the population in 1980 that it does now. Ditto the Miami MSA.

[The fact that Amtrak's 2035 map included boosting service within FL suggests that this might look like a more viable market now than it did forty years ago, and both Miami-Tampa and Miami-Jacksonville got selected for funding in the Corridor ID program. So there's actually a fight brewing here, and while Brightline is likely to clean up on Miami-Jacksonville if they get up there, the Amtrak stops in the Orlando area are in different places than the Brightline stop(s) will be and there are a decent number of smaller cities that Brightline won't serve due to location. But the fact is that if there's follow-through, Brightline's plans and those Corridor ID studies are setting up the first throwdown between two dueling passenger rail operators since way-back-when.]

[1] https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/3458/16.pdf
[2] https://www.railpassengers.org/site/assets/files/3459/19.pdf

 

[Anderson]

The family chat is excited about this. In terms of service, I’d guess Cocoa and Stuart might get express trains that skip Aventura but not super-expresses that skip Boca?

Other way around. Aventura gets most-or-all trains, Boca gets about half. But I suspect that what may be lurking is "locals" that make all the stops and "expresses" that skip Boca, Stuart, and Cocoa. Having two stopping patterns makes sense.

Also consider that when they do the Disney Springs area service, they're probably going to need to buy another 2-3 sets to make the timing work. I'm hopeful that they might consider buying the sets they need for Tampa as part of a slightly larger order (5-6 sets?) and use a few of them to add service between Miami and West Palm Beach for a few years, until they can get the commuter stuff worked out and running. As things stand, they're selling about half of the seats between Orlando and West Palm Beach [1], and that's counting trains arriving after 0100 and leaving before 0500 and accounting for through ridership being lost to capacity squeezes in South Florida (note that Brightline is no longer going to offer seat selection to local Smart pax in South Florida). We can certainly discuss what sorts of load factors they can hope to get on this section, but 50% with all of the limitations doesn't seem too bad. I'll also be curious as to how those numbers hold up as cars 5, 6, and 7 arrive for the trains over the next two years.

[1] Specifically, 122,703 out of about 253,704. There's a frequency imbalance (17 one way, 16 the other), but it looks like these frequencies are now daily so I just ran 248*(16+17)*31 vs January's ridership.

 

[user 1215]

Other way around. Aventura gets most-or-all trains, Boca gets about half. But I suspect that what may be lurking is "locals" that make all the stops and "expresses" that skip Boca, Stuart, and Cocoa. Having two stopping patterns makes sense.

Also consider that when they do the Disney Springs area service, they're probably going to need to buy another 2-3 sets to make the timing work. I'm hopeful that they might consider buying the sets they need for Tampa as part of a slightly larger order (5-6 sets?) and use a few of them to add service between Miami and West Palm Beach for a few years, until they can get the commuter stuff worked out and running. As things stand, they're selling about half of the seats between Orlando and West Palm Beach [1], and that's counting trains arriving after 0100 and leaving before 0500 and accounting for through ridership being lost to capacity squeezes in South Florida (note that Brightline is no longer going to offer seat selection to local Smart pax in South Florida). We can certainly discuss what sorts of load factors they can hope to get on this section, but 50% with all of the limitations doesn't seem too bad. I'll also be curious as to how those numbers hold up as cars 5, 6, and 7 arrive for the trains over the next two years.

[1] Specifically, 122,703 out of about 253,704. There's a frequency imbalance (17 one way, 16 the other), but it looks like these frequencies are now daily so I just ran 248*(16+17)*31 vs January's ridership.

I'm actually excited to hear that they are around 50% between MCO and WPB. This is good news, indeed.

Do you actually think they will start service around the Disney area before they complete service all the way to Tampa?

 

[bonzoesc]

I'm actually excited to hear that they are around 50% between MCO and WPB. This is good news, indeed.

Do you actually think they will start service around the Disney area before they complete service all the way to Tampa?

The pattern since Miami opened has been to do major cities, and then infill.

 

[jis]

I'm actually excited to hear that they are around 50% between MCO and WPB. This is good news, indeed.

Do you actually think they will start service around the Disney area before they complete service all the way to Tampa?

I suspect since the Sunrise Corridor (or whatever they call it now) through Orlando is primarily a City of Orlando/Sunrail project that will be partly funded and used by Brightline, irrespective of what Brightline does, there will be Sunrail service to South International Drive from day 1 of the completion of the line through Orlando.

 

[jis]

Here are two interesting documents from the Brevard County TPO prepared in the mid-teens in preparation for interaction with Brightline regarding grade crossings in Brevard County

• Quiet Zone Technical Memorandum (PDF) - September 2014

I guess they need to update it with real lived experience at this point as they prepare to submit a Quiet Zone application.

There is also a rail station location related study dating back to 2016 soon after Brevard decided to support AAF and had their first meeting with them:

• Passenger Rail Station Location Study – May 2016

So as you can see, we in Brevard County have been engaged in conversation and cooperation with Brightline for quite a while.