Brightline Trains Florida discussion 2024

[crescent-zephyr]

Apparently, WPB-MIA didn't care (as much) as passengers riding north of WPB who actually have something to view.

Maybe, but when I first complained my response was that there was only 1 wrapped train (at the time) and they would take my comment into consideration. That was only like a year ago. It was only very recently that so many trains were wrapped.

Also... even if it annoys you it will annoy you less on a shorter trip.

 

[cirdan]

I think of those three Brightline will not touch CHI-STL or PDX-SEA-VAC with a ten foot barge pole as long as they run on UP and BNSF trackage respectively and as long as it is not the trackage owner that is contracting directly with them. They do not suffer from some of the starry eyed naivete of some of the public outfits. LAX-SAN is much more likely as it is more or less in public control and in effect if the pubic operating district contracts it is effectively the track and dispatching owner contracting..

Amtrak has very deep pockets (when it wants to) and does not have to please shareholders or even show that it is recovering the money it invests.

That does not exactly make for a level playing field when competing with the likes of Brightline. I don't think Brightline would be so foolish as to ever go into a head-to-head competitive situation in one of Amtrak's core markets.

 

[user 1215]

Amtrak has very deep pockets (when it wants to) and does not have to please shareholders or even show that it is recovering the money it invests.

That does not exactly make for a level playing field when competing with the likes of Brightline. I don't think Brightline would be so foolish as to ever go into a head-to-head competitive situation in one of Amtrak's core markets.

BL has the potential of outplaying Amtrak in terms of punctuality and customer service. If they do, Amtrak has demonstrated that they can't spend enough, fast enough, properly enough to compete against private service.

All that being said, BL taps into services that don't directly compete with Amtrak for the moment (Though BL FL is MIA to ORL, it's not a direct competition with different routing and much greater frequencies). And if they did delve into that sort of com, they'd have to have an ironclad relationship with the track owners.

Amtrak, on the other hand, will always have the advantage of offering sleeper class. Again, that would be outside of the scope of the corridors discussed for short-distance travelers, but there are day-sleepers...

 

[jis]

Amtrak has very deep pockets (when it wants to) and does not have to please shareholders or even show that it is recovering the money it invests.

That does not exactly make for a level playing field when competing with the likes of Brightline. I don't think Brightline would be so foolish as to ever go into a head-to-head competitive situation in one of Amtrak's core markets.

It should be noted though that LAX-SAN is not Amtrak's market at all. It is Caltrans' market where Amtrak is a player as a contractor. Tomorrow Caltrans could decide that they have had it with Amtrak and contract with someone else. Unlikely but administratively possible. I still doubt that BL will get in there without full dispatching control or at least ironclad agreements about dispatching, something like they will need to have with Metrolink if and when they get to LAUS from Rancho C using Metrolink rails.

Incidentally few realize that even at Penn Station Amtrak does not have exclusive dispatching control. They share that responsibility on a equal basis with LIRR.

 

[joelkfla]

BL has the potential of outplaying Amtrak in terms of punctuality and customer service. If they do, Amtrak has demonstrated that they can't spend enough, fast enough, properly enough to compete against private service.

I dunno about the customer service part. I've seen a number complaints about Brightline customer service being hard to reach and unhelpful. They seem to be following the "do everything online" model.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I dunno about the customer service part. I've seen a number complaints about Brightline customer service being hard to reach and unhelpful. They seem to be following the "do everything online" model.

But on the plus side Brightline is both anti-cash and anti-debit (must be processed like a credit card) so they have that going for them.

 

[west point]

Brightline has 5 advantages over Amtrak.
1. The track it operates on does not have a lot of freight train interference,
2. It operates with the freights on almost all 2 main tracks so it can pass easily any freight interference. Note how the on time on the NEC is today at 20:00. All Short distance trains in the green which is 9 minutes or less over schedule. LD trains are green 29 minutes or less. Note Capitol corridor runs with 2 MT mostly on time.
3. The 2 MTs allow BL passenger trains to pass each other at max speed.
4. the freight part has very few slow sections.
5. BL route is much shorter than any Amtrak LD route.

So, the lack of routes with 2 main tracks or more seems to be a defining point keeping Amtrak from running on time. Of course, infrastructure or other problems usually slow a lot of trains at the same time. The NS South of the Lake is an example that 2 main tracks are not enough.

I think that we need to examine how much 2 main tracks Vs. single tracks with sidings spaced various distances has an effect of on time operations. You can start with the Crescent route south of ATL.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

I dunno about the customer service part. I've seen a number complaints about Brightline customer service being hard to reach and unhelpful. They seem to be following the "do everything online" model.

There are definitely customer service issues at Brightline. Because of the modern and classy setup, they get by with more but when things go wrong Brightline doesn't seem to know how to deal with it.

Case in point... at one station stop there was no announcement that not all doors would open, so passengers were lined up getting ready to get off and one of the doors didn't open, some employee (not sure what his position was) enters the car and just starts shouting at them acting like they should have known to exit from the other end of the car.

 

[JamesWhitcombRiley]

I dunno about the customer service part. I've seen a number complaints about Brightline customer service being hard to reach and unhelpful. They seem to be following the "do everything online" model.

I messaged them about possibly lost item and they referred me to a service called ileftmystuff (dot com). It's mainly a service for hotels, and I thought that was reasonable enough. Are you seeing more complaints out of Orlando or Miami / Broward / West Palm, or can you tell?

 

[joelkfla]

I messaged them about possibly lost item and they referred me to a service called ileftmystuff (dot com). It's mainly a service for hotels, and I thought that was reasonable enough. Are you seeing more complaints out of Orlando or Miami / Broward / West Palm, or can you tell?

No specifics, I've just noticed a few posts on Facebook about issues with reaching customer service or having them resolve an issue.

 

[jis]

Brightline has taken customer feedback to heart. As a result the new wrapped set has spared the windows. The wrapping is only on metal surface.

 

[joelkfla]

Brightline has taken customer feedback to heart. As a result the new wrapped set has spared the windows. The wrapping is only on metal surface.

But the previously wrapped cars still have the windows covered, right?

 

[BlackDiamond]

There are definitely customer service issues at Brightline. Because of the modern and classy setup, they get by with more but when things go wrong Brightline doesn't seem to know how to deal with it.

Case in point... at one station stop there was no announcement that not all doors would open, so passengers were lined up getting ready to get off and one of the doors didn't open, some employee (not sure what his position was) enters the car and just starts shouting at them acting like they should have known to exit from the other end of the car.

I think we should make allowances for the fact that Brightline is fairly new at this whereas Amtrak has had over 50 years to perfect their outstanding customer service

 

[jis]

But the previously wrapped cars still have the windows covered, right?

I don't know. Haven't seen any of the previously wrapped ones pass by when I happened to be trackside in Melbourne/Palm Bay/Malabar

 

[MARC Rider]

I think we should make allowances for the fact that Brightline is fairly new at this whereas Amtrak has had over 50 years to perfect their outstanding customer service

First, I think that customer service (or the lack thereof) is more a function of staffing levels than some conspiratorial executives trying to drive away passengers. Second, Brightline is more properly compared to Amtrak's Northeast Corridor, not Amtrak's Long-Distance service. In both cases (with the exception of first class), on board service is pretty minimal, as one might expect with a 200-250 mile ride. (Yes there are NEC trains that go longer distances, but very few of the passengers actually take the full ride.) NEC south (WAS-NYP) is faster than Brightline, even the Regionals are faster. Speeds on the NYP-BOS are similar to Brightline. Brightline has nifty new equipment, but in a few years, so will Amtrak. Amtrak has more interesting historical stations, which some aficionados of classic architecture may prefer to the ultra post-modernist stuff erected by Brightline. And Brightline's Orlando station is not really located in a convenient place, unless you're connecting to a flight.

 

[jis]

The good thing that Brightline did is it lay the foundation of an industrial base from which the States and Amtrak can now get equipment without bellyaching about how to pay to set the manufacturing infrastructure up. In addition it laid a baseline of things that people now expect and arguably helped create a pressure on political will to try to as quickly as possible acquire new equipment,and more importantly help get funding for it through the political process.

But let us get back to discussing Brightline in Florida.

Here is an interesting web page on the Vision of the Sunshine Corridor which will be used by both Brightline and SunRail...

https://www.orlandosrightrail.com/the-vision/

And this Railway Age article provides one of the best discussions of the overall context within which Brightline will grow through Orlando and how it arrived at that point.

https://www.railwayage.com/news/central-floridas-sunshine-corridor-moves-forward/

Now the big open question is whether Brightline and Amtrak could stop at the hypothetical Sunshine Transfer station. That would be the easiest way to get a transfer facility between Brightline and Amtrak. At present there are no plans for either of them to stop there. Sunshine Transfer is at present planned to be an exclusively SunRail stop connecting its North-South Corridor to its new East-West Corridor.

The official FDOT pages on Sunshine Corridor Alternative Detail Study is at:

https://www.cflroads.com/project/451404-1

https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/4020c1c20b9b4ab98a6acc6cc4a072cd

 

[crescent-zephyr]

In both cases (with the exception of first class), on board service is pretty minimal, as one might expect with a 200-250 mile ride.

And in Amtrak's case, I regularly hear announcements when all doors will not open, both on the PA, and also when the Conductors walk through before each station and they check seat tags.

 

[jis]

Interesting read of the revised Brightline Bond document...

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...r-2024-as-monthly-delivery-steadies-analysis/

 

[blueman271]

First, I think that customer service (or the lack thereof) is more a function of staffing levels than some conspiratorial executives trying to drive away passengers. Second, Brightline is more properly compared to Amtrak's Northeast Corridor, not Amtrak's Long-Distance service. In both cases (with the exception of first class), on board service is pretty minimal, as one might expect with a 200-250 mile ride. (Yes there are NEC trains that go longer distances, but very few of the passengers actually take the full ride.) NEC south (WAS-NYP) is faster than Brightline, even the Regionals are faster. Speeds on the NYP-BOS are similar to Brightline. Brightline has nifty new equipment, but in a few years, so will Amtrak. Amtrak has more interesting historical stations, which some aficionados of classic architecture may prefer to the ultra post-modernist stuff erected by Brightline. And Brightline's Orlando station is not really located in a convenient place, unless you're connecting to a flight.

Agree with most of what you said except for the station location. If Orlando had a robust and easy to use public transportation system then Brightlines station location would be problematic. But Orlando does not. Tourists have to rent cars or use taxis and ride shares to get around and for that the station location is perfect. As for the locals they are already conditioned to head to the airport to leave town.

 

[bonzoesc]

Now the big open question is whether Brightline and Amtrak could stop at the hypothetical Sunshine Transfer station. That would be the easiest way to get a transfer facility between Brightline and Amtrak. At present there are no plans for either of them to stop there. Sunshine Transfer is at present planned to be an exclusively SunRail stop connecting its North-South Corridor to its new East-West Corridor.

Going by the other links, it looks like any Brightline Tampa service would run through the “Sunshine Corridor” regardless, but of course Brightline stations are way more expensive than SunRail’s.

 

[Anderson]

Interesting read of the revised Brightline Bond document...

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...r-2024-as-monthly-delivery-steadies-analysis/

Well, I'm glad to see I'm not the only one doing this sort of analysis. I've been meaning to add February to my data set, but I've also been traveling.

IMO there's no way they're going to get to even the revised ridership estimates. I've been saying this for a long time, but there's a massive disconnect between what is being officially projected in Brightline's documents and what is possible based on capacity. Brightline is pacing to land somewhere around 2.7-3.0m riders in 2024. Adding a car for the full year would put Brightline around 3.6m riders in 2024 (roughly in line with what they said with respect to the February ridership data). Now, it is quite possible that they will shake a few more riders loose on the existing capacity, but Brightline's supplements suggest that they're getting boxed in on growing ridership.

Edit:
Revising and extending the above, Brightline's apparently still-for-2026 projections are so detached from reality that I have to wonder how their lawyers are signing off on publishing the numbers that are being cited. As far as I know, by 2026 Brightline does have another 30 cars coming. That would bring the capacity per set up to about 440 pax (presuming 64 seats/car for the new cars), and give them about 5,139,200 seats/year (presuming 16 round-trips per day every day for 365 days per year). Apparently they are still projecting something like 8m riders in 2026.

I'll just say it: That dog won't hunt. Right now, Brightline is on track to book about 2.9m pax in 2024 (notwithstading the new car arrivals) on the basis of about 2.9m seats this year. [1] Extrapolation suggests that they might get to 5.2m riders/yr with the already-ordered capacity [2], maybe a shade more if they can get more folks onto off-hour trains and/or their decision to stop allowing seat selection within South Florida in Smart lets them effectively squeeze a bit more capacity out there, but the gap between 5.2m and 8.0m is pretty big. But they do not have the equipment on order to enable that kind of capacity, and given delivery lead times I cannot figure out how they can claim those projections with a straight face.

Depending on your capacity/load assumptions, even going to the full planned length of trains at 10 cars would only get you to 7,381,760 seats [3]. 11 cars gets you there [4], but IINM the platforms aren't set up for that. Also, depending on the ridership, it's possible that the Boca Raton-Fort Lauderdale "pinch point" pushes this number higher (as I've discussed before), so you could practically need 12-13 cars per train.

[1] (248 seats/train)*(32 trains/day)*(365 days/yr)=2,896,640
[2] (440 seats/train)*(32 trains/day)*(365 days/yr)=5,139,200
[3] (632 seats/train)*(32 trains/day)*(365 days/yr)=7,381,760
[4] (696 seats/train)*(32 trains/day)*(365 days/yr)=8,129,280

 

[jis]

A few details about the site location for the Brevard County Brightline Station just South of the Cocoa Curve...



And similar information about the site selection for the Stuart Station...

 

[jis]

Here is a TCPalm article with aq lot of useful information, though some of it isw a bit vague and misleading....

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/l...t-demand-on-miami-orlando-trains/73093563007/

 

[Anderson]

Here is a TCPalm article with aq lot of useful information, though some of it isw a bit vague and misleading....

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/l...t-demand-on-miami-orlando-trains/73093563007/

Yeah...one of the issues is that you *can* have more pax/day than seats/day because seats can turn over (e.g. ORL-WPB/WPB-FLL/FLL-MIA).

 

[jis]

Yeah...one of the issues is that you *can* have more pax/day than seats/day because seats can turn over (e.g. ORL-WPB/WPB-FLL/FLL-MIA).

That is why RASM and CASM are used in such analyses, but those figures are hard to get from outside. They need to come from the operating entity who have the necessary source data.