Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[user 1215]

As someone mentioned previously, the tax is going for general transportation, not just for a "failed commuter line." Anyway, everybody in that county deserves to be penalized because they have allowed themselves to be dependent on cars for their transportation needs. I'm not sure a sales tax is the best way to do that, though. Probably better to have both an increased motor fuel tax on fuels derived from petroleum, coal, and natural gas, and a mileage charge for electric vehicles. Plus, tolls on all major arterial roads, which isn't that hard to do anymore using open road tolling technology. And all the money raised should go to public transportation. Of course, such policies would never fly politically, but that's about what it would take to get people out of their cars, and even then....

So - I'm going to appear to do a 180. I don't think that I'm being hypocritical here. The problem when government runs transit is that they do it as inexpensively as possible using freight lines that a) are in industrial more than commercial or residential zones, b) subject to the whim of the property owners, all therefore serving a small portion of the population.

I have advocated a light/commuter/mono rail system in Orlando since I recognized there was a congestion issue back in the 90s the first time I lived here. The solution at the time was rather to build more toll roads. I-4 has been in a perpetual state of construction since. A light rail along Central Florida Parkway, I-Drive, Westwood would have eased a LOT of tourism traffic through the visitors corridor.

The desire of the city to route Brightline through that area is the first step that should have been taken decades ago.

But look at the cities with the highest public transportation - Tokyo, London, New York, Chicago .... traffic is STILL a twisted mess, and rail transit hasn't ever SOLVED the problem.

You will ALWAYS need that last mile...or 10...or 20...

 

[MARC Rider]

I'm not that pessimistic. As population increases and more and more areas are being built on, huge swatches of Florida are being urbanized by stealth. And in an urban environment the argument for rail and other forms of mass transit becomes more and more unavoidable by the day. This is why we are seeing Brightline among others, but also the various commuter rail schemes that have appeared over the last decades plus those that are still to come or be extended.

I'd like to be as optimistic as you are, but consider that in the Northeast Corridor, the California metropolises and Chicagoland have high taxes, are very urbanized, yet only a fraction of the population there has practical access to the existing rail infrastructure, even if it is more extensive than it is in places like Florida and urban Texas. I suppose there's a possibility that as these states become more urbanized and more urban voters demand the services and infrastructure needed for urban areas, the electorate may become more supportive of higher taxes and support of public transportation. But most people, even in the NEC, seem to be fine with driving around in heavy traffic. Anything rather than to have to share personal space with the riffraff.

 

[user 1215]

But most people, even in the NEC, seem to be fine with driving around in heavy traffic. Anything rather than to have to share personal space with the riffraff.

Why do we have more riffraff in the US than we have in other civilized countries? I would rather be on a packed train in Tokyo than a half-full subway in NYC.

 

[MARC Rider]

I have advocated a light/commuter/mono rail system in Orlando since I recognized there was a congestion issue back in the 90s the first time I lived here. The solution at the time was rather to build more toll roads. I-4 has been in a perpetual state of construction since. A light rail along Central Florida Parkway, I-Drive, Westwood would have eased a LOT of tourism traffic through the visitors corridor.

Oh, just to be clear, when I say "toll roads," I don't mean tolled freeways, I mean one could put tolls on the 4-6 lane arterial streets lined with strip development that infest our towns and cities across the country. Using open road tolling technology, it shouldn't even slow traffic down -- that's not needed, as the current traffic signals do a good enough job of that. Oh, and another thing, there shouldn't be any more free parking anywhere, at least in towns and cities, and any place that starts getting as lot of traffic should be designated as a town or city.

As the sprawled-out development becomes economically untenable, then the opportunity arises to build more compact towns and cities where transportation needs can be better met through walking, cycling, and public transportation, and use of the automobile is restricted to weekend drives in the country and vacation road trips.

 

[cirdan]

But look at the cities with the highest public transportation - Tokyo, London, New York, Chicago .... traffic is STILL a twisted mess, and rail transit hasn't ever SOLVED the problem.

I think in places like London (at least in the central area), public transit has solved the problem in as far as that congestion has becomes irrelevant because most people don't drive there anyway. Even the buses are slowly getting reserved lanes and other priorities put in that lead to better and more reliable performance, and helping fill in the gaps between the stations, so you are rarely more than 100 yards from some form of useful public transportation.

 

[MARC Rider]

Why do we have more riffraff in the US than we have in other civilized countries? I would rather be on a packed train in Tokyo than a half-full subway in NYC.

That hasn't been my experience in riding New York subways, at least not since the late 1980s. My impression of my fellow Americans is that we are incredibly snobbish, and consider all sorts of people who look and dress "different" as "riffraff" who aren't really riffraff. Added to that is the fact that post World War 2, Americans, even those of modest means, had the wealth to act on their snobbishness, and so now we're all in cars.

By the way, there's plenty of "riffraff" on the road, as the surge of overly aggressive and reckless driving so well demonstrates.

 

[Qapla]

That's a 13.3% hike in sales tax from 6.5% to 7.5%. May just sound like a penny more for every dollar, but to support a fiscally failed commuter line by penalizing EVERYONE in the county is just wrong. Increase the fares! Improve the service! This is what you get when government tries to run a business (transportation welfare). They have zero incentive to make money. Not enough cash? Just tax the 99.9% who don't even know it exists.

Even Lynx is a haphazardly run transit system with nearly zero reliability in their schedule.

Ah! to return to 6.5% ... we have had 7% in our county for many, many years. Duval county (JAX) is 7.5% as well as smaller counties like Clay, Bradford and Putnam. While Jax has some public transportation, those smaller counties do not.

Likewise, why do property owners who don't have children have to so heavily support the Public School system through property taxes - isn't that "punishment"? The same could be said of those who don't drive - yet some of their sales taxes go to the road system.

Instead of complaining about the portion of tax being used to improve transportation (public or road) why not get rid of the "pet projects" that cost millions and only benefit a few?

Expanding rail should be a statewide endeavor and come ahead of widening roads that don't really need it.

 

[user 1215]

Disney tried to solve this with his original envisioning of EPCOT - Experimental Prototype Community of Tomorrow. But even that expansive vision could only support between 30-50,000 people in an essentially socialist society where everyone had a job, and when you retired, you moved out to make room for others. Other than that aspect of it, Disney had a TON of transportation solutions envisioned, but the foresight was never realized. In fact, Disney's latest transportation system - the popular Skyliner (which I enjoy) employs the same technology that they removed from Tokyo Disneyland, Disneyland and the Magic Kingdom in the 90s (the Skyway) ostensibly due to it's low capacity and high maintenance costs. Even the monorail never developed into more than a gimmick to get people from the parking lot to the main gate and Epcot (though I suspect the monorail sees more passengers daily than Sunrail).

 

[user 1215]

Instead of complaining about the portion of tax being used to improve transportation (public or road) why not get rid of the "pet projects" that cost millions and only benefit a few?

Expanding rail should be a statewide endeavor and come ahead of widening roads that don't really need it.

Isn't Sunrail exactly a pet project that cost millions and only benefit a few?

 

[jis]

MODERATOR'S NOTE: A gentle reminder that this thread is about Brightline. If you wish to discuss general taxing policy and transit start another thread please.

 

[jis]

I found this Environmental Study document done in 2018 for what then was called Sunrail Phase III. The relevance of it in the Brightline thread is that it has a pretty detailed description of the routing from OIA to the CFRC line which now forms part of the compromise routing that is proposed for Brightline between OIA and WDW via the Convention Center.

3515-2018-05 Project Development and Environmental Study (PDF)

 

[jis]

I-Drive businesses of course like the new direction that Brightline is taking ...

https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/n...do-tampa-extension-excites-i-drive-biz-owners

 

[user 1215]

I-Drive businesses of course like the new direction that Brightline is taking ...

https://www.baynews9.com/fl/tampa/n...do-tampa-extension-excites-i-drive-biz-owners

Brightline will need to manage the passengers from MCO to Disney Springs so that they don't block out through traffic passenger - ie: those who want to go from Miami to DS or I-Drive or from those two stops to Tampa, etc. If anyone needs to travel just between MCO and DS, it needs to be on Sunrail.

 

[CCC1007]

Brightline will need to manage the passengers from MCO to Disney Springs so that they don't block out through traffic passenger - ie: those who want to go from Miami to DS or I-Drive or from those two stops to Tampa, etc. If anyone needs to travel just between MCO and DS, it needs to be on Sunrail.

Easy enough if you offer a shuttle train MCO-Tampa or MCO-DS.

 

[user 1215]

Sunrail needs to be that shuttle, and they need to charge $10 per person. That will keep it under the cost of an Uber and better revenue than the existing line.

 

[Brian_tampa]

Wes Edens, the owner of Brightline was interviewed by the Washington Post today. Here is the link to the transcribed interview:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/washington-post-live/2022/06/07/transcript-transportation-all/

It is free to access by creating an account with the paper here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/subscribe/signin?next_url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/washington-post-live/2022/06/07/transcript-transportation-all/&nid=top_pb_signin&arcId=D6RTAJIPOZGTXEVPHUTIUL4WQQ&account_location=ONSITE_HEADER_ARTICLE&itid=nav_sign_in

I have attached a pdf version of the transcripted interview. Mr. Edens is bullish on service to Orlando starting by Christmas 2022. We shall see!

 

[McIntyre2K7]

I have attached a pdf version of the transcripted interview. Mr. Edens is bullish on service to Orlando starting by Christmas 2022. We shall see!

I hope this does happen. I hope someone who is an executive at Brightline follows college football closely. Let's just say if Miami (FL) becomes bowl eligible but doesn't qualify for a New Year's Bowl. Maybe Brightline finds a way to convince the "Cheez It" or the "VBRO Citrus Bowl" committees to have the hurricanes play a game in Orlando. Then advertise a bowl game train that would take people from Miami to Orlando. Just have a shuttle running from MCO to the Citrus Bowl.

 

[joelkfla]

Florida Department of Transportation - I4 and SR 557 Interchange Design in Polk County, Florida



links to the Polk County CR557 @ I-4 interchange project web page and the FDOT wildlife crossing video.

The new interchange will have 2 roundabouts at each end of the CR557 overpass. It will also be built to the I-4 Ultimate design standard. This standard includes HSR in the median at this location.

The new wildlife crossing, which is really needed in this area, will be immediately to the east of the interchange. Between CR557 and US27 is the last really remote and somewhat wild section of land along I-4 (edit: at least west of Orlando, not sure of east of DeBary). This wildlife crossing is critical for the Florida panther and bear populations to grow and expand territory. As the video says, there are numerous wildlife crossing in Southwest and South Central Florida already built.

Brightline was required to build a wildlife crossing along SR528 west of the St John's River Bridge as well.

Man, I thought diverging diamond interchanges were bad enough. The guys designing this monstrosity must be smoking something.

 

[joelkfla]

As someone mentioned previously, the tax is going for general transportation, not just for a "failed commuter line." Anyway, everybody in that county deserves to be penalized because they have allowed themselves to be dependent on cars for their transportation needs. I'm not sure a sales tax is the best way to do that, though. Probably better to have both an increased motor fuel tax on fuels derived from petroleum, coal, and natural gas, and a mileage charge for electric vehicles. Plus, tolls on all major arterial roads, which isn't that hard to do anymore using open road tolling technology. And all the money raised should go to public transportation. Of course, such policies would never fly politically, but that's about what it would take to get people out of their cars, and even then....

A selling point for the sales tax is that it applies equally to tourists.

 

[west point]

Christmas 2022 seems to be highly unlikely. that would be great. seems that it will take 2 more months to connect Orlando to Cocoa. Then Ballasting and surfacing and settling track takes time. Then FEC tracks are not complete. But the real impediment will be all the Bridge replacements. When will all the bridges become 2 main track?

Then you have FRA certification of 110 MPH Palm Beach - Cocoa. Then 125 MPH Cocoa to Orlaando. It may be though Brightline could start slower service say 80 MPH? Then you have training all the new engineers, conductors that pppprobably just being hired. The proposed 3 hour enroute only allows for 1 or 1- 1/2 Round trips. Will Brightline receive enough train sets also?

All my Orlando relations are looking forward for service especially having to go to MIA or MIA airport. Gasoline prices may also have an effect.

 

[cirdan]

That hasn't been my experience in riding New York subways, at least not since the late 1980s. My impression of my fellow Americans is that we are incredibly snobbish, and consider all sorts of people who look and dress "different" as "riffraff" who aren't really riffraff. Added to that is the fact that post World War 2, Americans, even those of modest means, had the wealth to act on their snobbishness, and so now we're all in cars.

I wouldn't necessarily use the term riff-raff, but it's not just about public transportation but any public space really. In my experience/impression you are far more likely to be approached by a panhandler of some description in a public space in the USA than in Europe. Or maybe that's just my personal impression, and I've been to all the wrong places? Of course in my experience mostly such people are not aggressive or mean and will back off and leave you alone if you indicate you are not interested. But I think maybe if you are a vulnerable person travelling alone you may feel threatened by them.

 

[user 1215]

Christmas 2022 seems to be highly unlikely. that would be great. seems that it will take 2 more months to connect Orlando to Cocoa. Then Ballasting and surfacing and settling track takes time. Then FEC tracks are not complete. But the real impediment will be all the Bridge replacements. When will all the bridges become 2 main track?

Then you have FRA certification of 110 MPH Palm Beach - Cocoa. Then 125 MPH Cocoa to Orlaando. It may be though Brightline could start slower service say 80 MPH? Then you have training all the new engineers, conductors that pppprobably just being hired. The proposed 3 hour enroute only allows for 1 or 1- 1/2 Round trips. Will Brightline receive enough train sets also?

All my Orlando relations are looking forward for service especially having to go to MIA or MIA airport. Gasoline prices may also have an effect.

As I mentioned, the track is already ballasted from MCO all the way to the last toll plaza on 528. There are probably less than 20 miles to finish laying track and ballasting. Seems like all the base surfacing is complete. There is also some bridge work to complete along the route, notably over I-95, but it's all looking really good!

There is still a TON of double tracking and grade crossing upgrades to complete between Cocoa and WPB. But it isn't required to begin service, albeit at a presumably slower speed. And, if not for revenue, for training (which has already begun along that portion).

 

[cirdan]

Will Brightline receive enough train sets also?

I guess they could start with a reduced schedule and ramp up as train sets and staff become available.

 

[Brian_tampa]

More details on the I-4 wildlife crossing I mentioned last week as part of the CR557 interchange rebuild. It was in the local paper this morning.

Between Tampa and Orlando, Florida lifts Interstate 4 for animals

 

[Brian_tampa]

I guess they could start with a reduced schedule and ramp up as train sets and staff become available.

2 of the remaining 3 trainsets are to be delivered to Orlando in July or August. Last trainset delivered by the end of 2022.