Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[Brian_tampa]

I would bet the system to make sure crossing gates close correctly isn't quite ready and needs more testing.

I would think that this is the initial testing phase for the PTC system. How else would you test a system that has not been operational at 110mph before? I believe this will be the first Wabtec I-ETMS system that will have trains running at speeds up to 125mph. There are lots of components to test, especially at the grade crossings.

 

[GDRRiley]

I would think that this is the initial testing phase for the PTC system. How else would you test a system that has not been operational at 110mph before? I believe this will be the first Wabtec I-ETMS system that will have trains running at speeds up to 125mph. There are lots of components to test, especially at the grade crossings.

if this is I-ETMS with ITCS on top then its been running in Michigan for 10 years at 110mph with testing done at that speed 20+ years

 

[jis]

if this is I-ETMS with ITCS on top then its been running in Michigan for 10 years at 110mph with testing done at that speed 20+ years

No ITCS here. The cab signal is FEC’s eATCS. My understanding is that I-ETMS is an overlay on FEC cab signals. The loco dashboard has both cab signals and I-ETMS display.

 

[Brian_tampa]

I thought the Michigan line was ITCS first as that system was installed back in the mid 1990's. Then I-ETMS came later as the defacto freight rail PTC system standard in the USA. Brightline originally went with a unique E-ATC system that they removed during their Covid shutdown. As Jis says, the Brightline I-ETMS is an overlay of the FECR ATC cab signal system.

I might be wrong, but I-ETMS has never been operational at 125mph speeds before. Brightline intends to run at 150mph between Orlando and Tampa, I assume using I-ETMS.

 

[GDRRiley]

I might be wrong, but I-ETMS has never been operational at 125mph speeds before. Brightline intends to run at 150mph between Orlando and Tampa, I assume using I-ETMS.

brightline will not hit that speed without electrification and all new train sets, 125mph is the best they'll get
and at that speed theres 1 modern standard for that ETCS, you could copy amtrak and use ACSES but thats custom

 

[jis]

brightline will not hit that speed without electrification and all new train sets, 125mph is the best they'll get
and at that speed theres 1 modern standard for that ETCS, you could copy amtrak and use ACSES but thats custom

ETCS is a specification, of which ERTMS (typically level 2 though there are a few level 3) is a commonly deployed implementation in Europe. Brightline has settled on I-ETMS overlay on eATC on FECR in Florida.

There will be no ETCS anything on Brightline Florida.

In California-Nevada the logical thing to do would be to use whatever CAHSR settles on.

 

[Qapla]

Regardless of where else and for how long any PTC system has been tested - this system is a new installation and needs to be tested.

 

[jis]

Regardless of where else and for how long any PTC system has been tested - this system is a new installation and needs to be tested.

All new installations of PTC irrespective of the technology and implementation require extensive testing and certification irrespective of how many similar installations may be there elsewhere.

 

[GDRRiley]

ETCS is a specification, of which ERTMS (typically level 2 though there are a few level 3) is a commonly deployed implementation in Europe. Brightline has settled on I-ETMS overlay on eATC on FECR in Florida. There will be no ETCS anything on Brightline Florida.

I'm aware but you aren't going to get 150-160mph on I-ETMS

In California-Nevada the logical thing to do would be to use whatever CAHSR settles on.

its ETCS L2

 

[Brian_tampa]

brightline will not hit that speed without electrification and all new train sets, 125mph is the best they'll get
and at that speed theres 1 modern standard for that ETCS, you could copy amtrak and use ACSES but thats custom

Brightline did a public presentation of their intentions to operate at speeds up to 150mph at a Hillsborough County (Tampa) government meeting this past spring. The link to the meeting video from March is buried here on this thread. I also have confirmed it with Brightline people that I have spoken with since it was announced.

The Venture cars are capable of that speed, and per my conversations the Charger locomotives only need minor modifications to run at 150mph, mainly removing the imposed Brightline limit of 4000hp. Siemens built the Venture cars with high speed trucks that can run at 150 mph speeds with some slight modifications to the standard delivered car.

The reason why they won't run at 150 mph between Cocoa and Orlando is that the length of track is not long enough to make it feasible. Along I-4 to Tampa, there are many miles of potential 150 mph tracks since the straightaways are longer.

 

[jis]

I'm aware but you aren't going to get 150-160mph on I-ETMS

We’ll see won’t we? eATC+I-ETMS is what we are talking about, not standard I-ETMS. I don’t know enough details to make any categorical statements this way or that without a better understanding the details of the implementation

 

[Brian_tampa]

We’ll see won’t we? eATC+I-ETMS is what we are talking about, not standard I-ETMS. I don’t know enough details to make any categorical statements this way or that without a better understanding the details of the implementation

Standard I-ETMS is only good for 110mph at best, right? If Brightline is planning on running 125 to 150 mph on passenger train only tracks, would that make it easier to adapt the current I-ETMS system for those higher speeds? And the FECR ATC system would not matter on the line west of Cocoa (City Point) anyway.

 

[GDRRiley]

Brightline did a public presentation of their intentions to operate at speeds up to 150mph at a Hillsborough County (Tampa) government meeting this past spring. The link to the meeting video from March is buried here on this thread. I also have confirmed it with Brightline people that I have spoken with since it was announced.

I found it.
she said a very vague we are thinking about it and given the fact she doesn't know how fast amtrak runs nor could correctly say how fast they'll run north of west palm I've got a hard time believing it

The Venture cars are capable of that speed, and per my conversations the Charger locomotives only need minor modifications to run at 150mph, mainly removing the imposed Brightline limit of 4000hp. Siemens built the Venture cars with high speed trucks that can run at 150 mph speeds with some slight modifications to the standard delivered car.

they aren't going to hit 160mph with 9000hp, the acela hits that with 12,400HP and their weight is pretty close per loco and per car

ventures cars being good for 150-160mph doesn't surprise me if they didn't change much from their euro design in that department

The reason why they won't run at 150 mph between Cocoa and Orlando is that the length of track is not long enough to make it feasible. Along I-4 to Tampa, there are many miles of potential 150 mph tracks since the straightaways are longer.

at 40 miles its nearly the same distance as the section thats expected to be in I-4

We’ll see won’t we? eATC+I-ETMS is what we are talking about, not standard I-ETMS. I don’t know enough details to make any categorical statements this way or that without a better understanding the details of the implementation

I wish we had more public documents around these deployments and info about them

 

[Touchdowntom9]

I trust that Brightline has a very clear plan on how they could reach 150 in a way that properly manages capital. If they were saying these types of comments without having thought them through, they will be sued by investors and risk the entire business. Fortress almost certainly has lawyers looking through all their public comments.

 

[jis]

I trust that Brightline has a very clear plan on how they could reach 150 in a way that properly manages capital. If they were saying these types of comments without having thought them through, they will be sued by investors and risk the entire business. Fortress almost certainly has lawyers looking through all their public comments.

Fortress does not care what speed trains run at as long as they get their real estate returns.

 

[Brian_tampa]

This is a video from the Brightline YT account showing their recent 110mph testing. The first several runby's are very cool. I think this is the first time I have seen the Chargers and Venture cars running at 110 mph.

 

[Qapla]

Must be kinda' fun running those trains up-and-down those tracks at 110mph not having to worry about hitting any cars at the crossings

 

[Touchdowntom9]

Fortress does not care what speed trains run at as long as they get their real estate returns.

The point is that Fortress would not let Brightline make claims that would open them up to lawsuits for potentially misleading investors and therefore threatening their future real estate investment returns. Building next to abandoned train stations isn't their gameplan.

 

[jis]

The point is that Fortress would not let Brightline make claims that would open them up to lawsuits for potentially misleading investors and therefore threatening their future real estate investment returns. Building next to abandoned train stations isn't their gameplan.

And my point is that speed claims are irrelevant unless they affect the financials in any way. No one cares if it does not affect the financials. 25mph difference in speed is not going to be a showstopper as far as that goes. There will be no abandoned stations in Tampa or Orlando for that reason.

Remember, they originally claimed service would start in 2016. No one has sued them about that yet even though it has clearly affected financials somewhat significantly. They have not met their original end to end time claims either, but no one cares about the 15-20 minutes miss and no stations are getting abandoned because of that. More are being built which will actually increase the size of the miss.

Even if they managed to run full speed between Orlando and Tampa (which they won't), the total end to end time difference between 125mph and 150 is something between 6 and 7 minutes. It will give them a little more time to turn the train around at each end, and either way it will be way faster than a car ride. It won't change the overall project significantly if they fail to reach 150mph.

 

[Devil's Advocate]

I trust that Brightline has a very clear plan on how they could reach 150 in a way that properly manages capital. If they were saying these types of comments without having thought them through, they will be sued by investors and risk the entire business. Fortress almost certainly has lawyers looking through all their public comments.

Where I come from plans are not promises, comments are not contracts, and dissolution/bankruptcy favors lenders over investors.

 

[user 1215]

They have not met their original end to end time claims either, but no one cares about the 15-20 minutes miss and no stations are getting abandoned because of that. More are being built which will actually increase the size of the miss.

Here's to hoping they can accommodate local/express service with in-station leap-frogging.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

Here's to hoping they can accommodate local/express service with in-station leap-frogging.

Will be interesting to see--when I rode the train they took their time pulling in and out of the stations. Curious if they will speed that up with more stops being added.

 

[jis]

110mph testing in Brevard County this weekend (10/29-30/22)

https://www.wftv.com/news/local/sti...-s_qWBvPJmdmsAWthmbdDGYTt4spcF_42usExnqPCKf50

 

[jis]

According to posts elsewhere on various boards from usually reliable sources the timeline for work on the Cocoa - Orlando section is as follows:

- Loaded ballast train run between Orlando and Cocoa Monday - Friday and ramp up the speed to 50mph starting in December.

- Begin full corridor testing and certification in December.

- January will be 110-125mph testing.

- Open system by Valentine's Day.

 

[Qapla]

Brightline Construction: Aventura and Boca Raton Station Progress - October 23, 2022​