Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[west point]

Ridership will be hard to predict. There actually be an increase of Amtrak Florida ridership as Brightline becomes much more apparent in the public's eye. That is not a prediction as Amtrak riderrrship might decrease?

How long it takes Sun Rail to get to MCO will make a real difference. Too bad Brightline cannot send some trains to just Sand Lake to connect there to Sun Rail until Sun Rail gets to MCO.

 

[Anderson]

They will have ten sets by the time service begins.

Gotcha. For some reason I thought it was only going to be eight and that got stuck in my mind. [Probably due to some garbling of the timeline or something.]

 

[user 1215]

How long it takes Sun Rail to get to MCO will make a real difference. Too bad Brightline cannot send some trains to just Sand Lake to connect there to Sun Rail until Sun Rail gets to MCO.

What's the missing link here? I suppose it be quicker to get Sunrail to the airport than Brightline to Sand Lake. Station infrastructure is already in place at the Airport - just need tracks & signaling at the Sunrail platforms. Brightline would have to have a whole station built at Sand Lake to stay "gated". So you're right ... to bad Brightline can't go to Sand Lake.

What's the timeline for Sunrail to get to MCO?

 

[Anderson]

So, some thoughts/observations:

(1) When Orlando service starts SB, I would expect the first two trains (0510/0610 now) to originate at WPB and the third (0648 now) to originate at Orlando. The departures for the first two would be insanely early; the third isn't quite as "out there" for Orlando, but it's not horrid for Stuart/Ft. Pierce (Cocoa leaves something to be desired).

(2) I suspect an earlier NB departure will be needed from Miami, since 0648 out of MIA gets you into WPB at 0800 (not bad) but wouldn't get you to Orlando until about 1000 (and you still have to get downtown if you want to do a meeting, so I wouldn't bet on getting much done before lunch). Honestly, two earlier departures from MIA seem plausible (for arrivals in the 0800 and 0900 range), especially since even if you don't get much traffic from MIA, FLL/Boca/WPB are likely to start loading some folks on as you go.

A single NB origination from WPB (or FLL) is also at least plausible here, but I'm dubious that I'd want to give up any marginal traffic on the south end (hence FLL as an option).

(3) In the evenings, the two morning originations at WPB parallel nicely with the last two MIA departures many days (2348 wouldn't hit Orlando until 0300 [!], and 2148's arrival at 0100 or so would be dubious).

(4) An additional SB evening train (or two) seems likely - the current gap between the last two regular trains is pretty big and only allows for one departure from Orlando after rush hour (the 2208 from WPB would leave Orlando around 2000, while the 1948 would be leaving Orlando around 1740). My best guess? Add one train between the two, move the 2208 a bit earlier (2148?), and then have one last late train aiming for arriving at MIA either a bit after midnight (allowing for an Orlando departure a bit after 2100) or sync it with "last general park closing plus X" so you can pitch a "full day in the parks" trip deal and just accept probably awful arrivals. Notably, if that last train is late enough you could do a "red eye" crew which covers the first trip back north (a 2200 departure from Orlando has to be back by about 0930, but if the first train leaves MIA around 0500 and arrives in Orlando at 0800...that's quite doable).

 

[Qapla]

Latest Video

 

[GDRRiley]

brightline is so close to a pulse but not quite there. They need a few departures shifted and to fill in the weird gaps with extra trains.

 

[Anderson]

brightline is so close to a pulse but not quite there. They need a few departures shifted and to fill in the weird gaps with extra trains.

They had hourly service (with, I believe, one skipped train midday). They shifted that after a bit because they needed an extra departure around rush hour.

The trap is between needing an extra train or two to cover peak-hour departures and not being able to justify several tens of millions of dollars for a train you only "really" need for one or two one-way runs per day.

 

[GDRRiley]

They had hourly service (with, I believe, one skipped train midday). They shifted that after a bit because they needed an extra departure around rush hour.

The trap is between needing an extra train or two to cover peak-hour departures and not being able to justify several tens of millions of dollars for a train you only "really" need for one or two one-way runs per day.

could get more coaches and that would be fairly cheap

 

[Anderson]

could get more coaches and that would be fairly cheap

It's a few million per coach, and somewhat more per loco, and each train has two locos. Also, they want the sets to all be identical for operational reasons.

 

[jis]

They had hourly service (with, I believe, one skipped train midday). They shifted that after a bit because they needed an extra departure around rush hour.

The trap is between needing an extra train or two to cover peak-hour departures and not being able to justify several tens of millions of dollars for a train you only "really" need for one or two one-way runs per day.

Given a choice between running a relatively full train and a relatively empty train Brightline will generally sacrifice clockface schedule. They are really not very religious about anything other than good yield management given the resources that are available. They have shown this behavior often enough for one to believe that it will be there modus operandi.

 

[cirdan]

Given a choice between running a relatively full train and a relatively empty train Brightline will generally sacrifice clockface schedule. They are really not very religious about anything other than good yield management given the resources that are available. They have shown this behavior often enough for one to believe that it will be there modus operandi.

It's still early days, and I expect their philosophy will evolve with experience.

A clockface schedule presents certain advantages outside of the obvious customer-friendliness aspect, and these include rolling stock rotation and utilization, and also utilization of track capacity, especially when you have single track sections on which the location of sidings essentially dictates the schedule. Passenger railroads across the world have come to this conclusion independently. AFAIK the first railroad to introduce such a schedule was the London and South Western Railway on its electrified lines out of London Waterloo, which was pre-WW1, making the concept well over a hundred years old,

 

[jis]

It's still early days, and I expect their philosophy will evolve with experience.

A clockface schedule presents certain advantages outside of the obvious customer-friendliness aspect, and these include rolling stock rotation and utilization, and also utilization of track capacity, especially when you have single track sections on which the location of sidings essentially dictates the schedule. Passenger railroads across the world have come to this conclusion independently. AFAIK the first railroad to introduce such a schedule was the London and South Western Railway on its electrified lines out of London Waterloo, which was pre-WW1, making the concept well over a hundred years old,

That is stating the obvious given a large enough temporal window of discourse and availability of resources.

I am stating what is likely to happen in the next few years when they will have precisely 10 4 car train sets and no more. Apparently people don't realize how tight a financial situation is for current Brightline development and operations. There is a reason they are not splurging on 8 car trains from the getgo. They may be owned by Softbank indirectly, but they do not have an unrestricted line of credit from them or from FECI. Unlike Amtrak, during COVID they furloughed/laid off almost everyone, other than those necessary to keep construction going. This included most of their executive suite. They truly shuttered shop for the duration. They rebuilt their staff to reintroduce service.

The single line sections is a non issue because the time table slots exist for upto 4tph. It will be a while before all of them are occupied. Meanwhile any of those slots can be used.

 

[west point]

Testing begins for 110 MPH.

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-rev...gin-110-mph-testing-north-of-west-palm-beach/

 

[Qapla]

Latest video from Roaming Railfan

Brightline Construction: Indian River County Progress- October 2022​

 

[user 1215]

Not much going on along 528. About the same state as last couple weeks. All but less than 2 miles has been ballasted. Ballast train still sits about 10 miles to the west.

Saw some active tamping.

Can't wait to see some of the signals powered up!

 

[Qapla]

Brightline Construction: St. Lucie and Martin County Progress - October 2022​

 

[jis]

MODERATOR'S NOTE: A number of posts that were primarily about SunRail have been moved to one of the existing SunRail threads:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/orlando-sunrail.78910/
Please post further material that is primarily about SunRail in that thread while focusing this thread on Brightline progress.

Thank you for your understanding, cooperation and participation.

 

[Anderson]

As a heads up, based on the last few months' filings, we should be getting an update in the next 1-3 days on Brightline's financials (and construction progress). The last few months' reports have all come in on the 20th, 21st, or 22nd (it was the 21st in June, and it was the 22nd in August but the 20th was a Saturday).

[Third quarter stuff will probably take until December, based on history.]

 

[jis]

Aventura station is coming along...

https://www.local10.com/news/local/...-step-towards-finishing-its-aventura-station/

 

[Anderson]

https://emma.msrb.org/P21623833-P21250716-P21675541.pdfI don't recall if there was any ridership interruption last month from Hurricane Ian (I'd assume a marginal impact since I think they partly cut service back on one or two days).

 

[chrsjrcj]

Apparently Brightline is no longer considering a stop at the Fort Lauderdale Airport.

15. Why is the Ft. Lauderdale-Hollywood International Airport station no longer marked as a Brightline station? In recent meetings with Broward County, Brightline advised that their intercity passenger service is no longer planned to stop at the Airport. Brightline is constructing stations in Aventura and Boca Raton and their passengers will be able to connect to commuter rail service and access the Airport via Aventura (in Miami-Dade) in the near term and via Boca Raton in Palm Beach County at a future date.

https://fdotwww.blob.core.windows.n...quently-asked-questions.pdf?sfvrsn=ee1a3852_4

 

[chrsjrcj]

Found a clip on Twitter of the 110 mph test

 

[joelkfla]

Found a clip on Twitter of the 110 mph test

I found it interesting that they're closing all the crossings end-to-end on the test route before the start of each test run.

 

[Qapla]

First Brightline 110mph Higher Speed Test Trains - October 21, 2022

 

[GDRRiley]

I found it interesting that they're closing all the crossings end-to-end on the test route before the start of each test run.

I would bet the system to make sure crossing gates close correctly isn't quite ready and needs more testing.