Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[Anderson]

I suspect they'll come around...about the time the first trains start blowing through without stopping.

Also...if I had to guess, AAF will be adding more stops in the long run than initial plans indicate...though they'll probably be keeping an hourly "express" service intact and other stops won't be getting "full service".

 

[jis]

Mind you there is no CSX involved at all south of WPB. It is all either Tri-Rail or FEC.

Meanwhile things are moving along in AAF-land:

http://www.growthspotter.com/projects/brightline/gs-all-aboard-florida-gains-easement-talks-jacksonville-20151203-story.html

BTW, Miami Central Station will have three platform tracks for AAF and two for Tri-Rail.

 

[DSS&A]

Hi,

Here's a link to an article about the testing of the upcoming station lights. The article stew that some of the employees formerly worked for Disney, so this could result with very good station facilities.

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/business/all-aboard-florida-tests-lighting-for-its-stations/npmDX

 

[me_little_me]

Hi,

Here's a link to an article about the testing of the upcoming station lights. The article stew that some of the employees formerly worked for Disney, so this could result with very good station facilities.

http://www.mypalmbeachpost.com/news/business/all-aboard-florida-tests-lighting-for-its-stations/npmDX

Oh great!

It will be a Mickey Mouse operation.

Goofy will be the station agent.

Food prices will be sky high.

Ticket prices will be even worse. You'll be encouraged to buy a ten ride ticket to save money.

You'll have to show up hours ahead of time because the parking will be so far away, you'll have to take the shuttle.

Wait until the nightly electric light parade through the station occurs! No seating will be provided.

Every tree, flower and blade of grass will be perfect.

Animatronic guides will show you to your train.

Your train will not stop at the station but will keep rolling, You will be on a moving walkway to get on.

Dumbo will take up half the space in your rail car.

You'll never believe what the electric cart that helps handicapped passengers is going to look like.

No train songs in the station - just "It's A Small World" played over and over.

The station will look like a castle or a Death Star.

 

[jis]

Building a station near the cruise terminal is a possibility too imho. On cruise days when several ships depart port canaveral it's possible that over 10, 000 people board or debarked ships.

In Miami? Plausible; I could see AAF runnig something like a DMU shuttle (or a back-and-forth run with one or two sets) between MiamiCentral and the port.

In Canaveral? Not a bloody chance. You'd have to put in a very high bridge over the Indian River and another one over the Banana River. However, I think the old Cocoa FEC station is roughly at US1 and SR528...which would be a pretty good place to stage shuttle buses. I believe FEC has hinted that they're pursuing this option, especially since if their system is fully fleshed-out you'd have four destinations to take cruise pax (Jacksonville, South Florida, Orlando, and Tampa) for flights and/or other parts of a package.

Anderson, think again. For you pleasure I present to you:

http://www.mynews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2015/9/3/brevard_county_railr.html

Yeah, there is a some jousting that will take place. But I think there i a very good chance that a spur at least for freight to Port Canaveral will be built and possibly along SR 528. A 50' above MSL railway bridge is not an unheard of thing in this day and age, and over the long run might be cheaper to operate than a lower alignment with two drawbridges.

BTW, the Cocoa AAF station if there is one (it is not a given, there are four plausible locations in Brevard County being explored and many believe Rockledge is a better location in North Brevard), it will be considerably south of SR 528, since the station has to be in a location after AAF comes off the ramp connecting to the Orlando ROW, They also have to design the whole thing keeping open the possibility of a junction with the future Cocoa to Port Canaveral link along SR 528, so very unlikely that there will be a station at or near SR 528 - US 1 intersection.

At the FRPC meeting yesterday three people from AAF came to give us an update about AAF. We asked many questions privately after the presentation. Some interesting tidbits that I gathered:

i. At present they are focused on getting the MIC - OIA service up and running. Even when they extend service from WPB to OIA they will not immediately do a local WPB tunr between MIC and WPB, or FLL or any such. Such might happen in the future depending on how things go.

ii. The next thing to do after service to OIA is station in Brevard County where negotiations on station location are in advanced stages.

iii. They are definitely protecting all rights to extend service to JAX, but currently no firm plans.

iv. They may consider Tampa at some point but it is too far away to talk any semblance of route details and such. They declined to answer a specific question about whether they would use the I-4 ROW.

v. They are currently on track to start MIC to WPB service mid 2017.

vi. They just got full access to the Cocoa - OIA ROW last week with the lease transfer of the last bit between SR 417 and OIA, and are now ready to start work on construction of the new track on the new ROW.

All this did not stop some in the audience from waxing poetic about "when AAF begins service to Ocala" and what not. Jokingly the guy said something like 2075 for that.

Abbreviations used:

BTW: By The Way

AAF: All Aboard Florida

FEC: Florida East Coast - used as a short form to refer to Florida East Coast Railway (FECR).

FRPC: Florida Rail Passenger Coalition

ROW: Right Of Way

MIC: Miami Central

OIA: Orlando International Airport

WPB: West Palm Beach

FLL: Fort Lauderdale

JAX: Jacksonville

SR: State Route

US: US Highway

I: Interstate Highway

 

[jis]

The Wave Streetcar system will connect to Bridghtline Service in Fort Lauderdale

http://www.wavestreetcar.com/

 

[jis]

More news from AAF:

All Aboard Florida testing lighting for its stations.

......
On Wednesday night, the company completed testing light colors, tones and brightness in the lighting that will ultimately shine at its stations from Orlando to Miami, including West Palm Beach. Brightline even hired a lighting firm out of New York, Domingo Gonzalez Associates, to help make decisions.

"We all worked for Disney so there is a particular passion for attention to detail," said Scott Sanders, Brightline executive vice president for development and construction.

Sanders said lighting was no small detail in Brightline's massive construction program. Not only does the company expect colorful and aesthetically pleasing lighting will make the stations signature buildings in each city's skyline, but appealing lighting also helps branding and even create awareness among passengers as they travel through the stations.

 

[Brian_tampa]

This might help clear up item 4 below. Having talked to several AAF people over the years and with the previous head of FDOT, Ananth Prasad, you can be assured that the I-4 median 'HSR rail envelop' (in FDOT parlance) is most definitely being preserved both in the Orlando and Tampa areas. FDOT is designing their Orlando 'I-4 Ultimate Project' and the future 'Tampa Bay Express' toll lanes so that AAF can be constructed in the median of I-4 basically following the exact same route as the old HSR proposed route.

Of course AAF won't publicly talk of this but initial planning (preserving the ROW, etc..) for any potential Tampa extension is indeed underway. They have no other viable route other than the I-4 median. This has to be decided now as these are multi-decade long highway projects. From my understanding, AAF recognizes the importance of expanding their system from the original MIA to MCO route. They won't say so, but I would be surprised if AAF does not expand to Tampa and/or Jacksonville. Look at the 2006 FDOT report on future passenger rail - the potential is there for a lot of passengers between Tampa-Orlando-Miami. AAF is following that report to the letter by choosing the coastal route detailed in the report.

And the issues with PAB financing are not a show stopper. AAF will get built to Orlando. The NIMBYS of the Treasure Coast have lost. They know it and I suspect it is why their local newspaper (TC Palm) has come around to not trying to stop AAF but is now saying to work with AAF.

Building a station near the cruise terminal is a possibility too imho. On cruise days when several ships depart port canaveral it's possible that over 10, 000 people board or debarked ships.

In Miami? Plausible; I could see AAF runnig something like a DMU shuttle (or a back-and-forth run with one or two sets) between MiamiCentral and the port.
In Canaveral? Not a bloody chance. You'd have to put in a very high bridge over the Indian River and another one over the Banana River. However, I think the old Cocoa FEC station is roughly at US1 and SR528...which would be a pretty good place to stage shuttle buses. I believe FEC has hinted that they're pursuing this option, especially since if their system is fully fleshed-out you'd have four destinations to take cruise pax (Jacksonville, South Florida, Orlando, and Tampa) for flights and/or other parts of a package.

Anderson, think again. For you pleasure I present to you:
http://www.mynews13.com/content/news/cfnews13/news/article.html/content/news/articles/cfn/2015/9/3/brevard_county_railr.html

Yeah, there is a some jousting that will take place. But I think there i a very good chance that a spur at least for freight to Port Canaveral will be built and possibly along SR 528. A 50' above MSL railway bridge is not an unheard of thing in this day and age, and over the long run might be cheaper to operate than a lower alignment with two drawbridges.

BTW, the Cocoa AAF station if there is one (it is not a given, there are four plausible locations in Brevard County being explored and many believe Rockledge is a better location in North Brevard), it will be considerably south of SR 528, since the station has to be in a location after AAF comes off the ramp connecting to the Orlando ROW, They also have to design the whole thing keeping open the possibility of a junction with the future Cocoa to Port Canaveral link along SR 528, so very unlikely that there will be a station at or near SR 528 - US 1 intersection.

At the FRPC meeting yesterday three people from AAF came to give us an update about AAF. We asked many questions privately after the presentation. Some interesting tidbits that I gathered:

i. At present they are focused on getting the MIC - OIA service up and running. Even when they extend service from WPB to OIA they will not immediately do a local WPB tunr between MIC and WPB, or FLL or any such. Such might happen in the future depending on how things go.

ii. The next thing to do after service to OIA is station in Brevard County where negotiations on station location are in advanced stages.

iii. They are definitely protecting all rights to extend service to JAX, but currently no firm plans.

iv. They may consider Tampa at some point but it is too far away to talk any semblance of route details and such. They declined to answer a specific question about whether they would use the I-4 ROW.

v. They are currently on track to start MIC to WPB service mid 2017.

vi. They just got full access to the Cocoa - OIA ROW last week with the lease transfer of the last bit between SR 417 and OIA, and are now ready to start work on construction of the new track on the new ROW.

All this did not stop some in the audience from waxing poetic about "when AAF begins service to Ocala" and what not. Jokingly the guy said something like 2075 for that.

Abbreviations used:

BTW: By The Way

AAF: All Aboard Florida

FEC: Florida East Coast - used as a short form to refer to Florida East Coast Railway (FECR).

FRPC: Florida Rail Passenger Coalition

ROW: Right Of Way

MIC: Miami Central

OIA: Orlando International Airport

WPB: West Palm Beach

FLL: Fort Lauderdale

JAX: Jacksonville

SR: State Route

US: US Highway

I: Interstate Highway

 

[jis]

FDOT has been remarkable in preserving highway ROWs for rail. Witness the width of the ROW that they have preserved along most of I-95 too. If anyone ever want to build a true HSR along the east coast that ROW still remains a candidate given how much of relatively straight segments it has. The FEC line will never have trains travel on it any faster than 110mph. What they are building for the Miami - Orlando projects is at about the bleeding edge of what is achievable on that ROW, and we are all keeping our fingers crossed about the grade crossing issue that will inevitably crop up given the lack of driving skills of average Florida drivers.

 

[Brian_tampa]

That is my fear too. There are too many vehicle-train collisions in this state. I'm amazed at how Amtrak trains seem to act like a magnet! I hope that with the sealed corridor infrastructure, that dumb Florida drivers won't be able to collide with AAF trains.

Having been on I95 in St Lucie and Martin Counties recently, it appears that there is no more median available for the areas south of Port St Lucie. I don't know how true HSR would ever get built in South FL. Even in SW Florida between Ft Myers and Naples, the I75 median is being consumed by more roadway lanes.

Maybe the turnpike would be better in areas south of Ft Pierce?

As far as Tampa goes, I do know that there is ongoing conversation between the government leaders here and AAF. But it will all come down to ROI and how much the cost will be to build to Tampa. I did a very rough calculation using generic, publicly available cost numbers for bridge and track components and came up with a number of around $1.3B to build from Orlando to Tampa assuming mainly single track with four 10 mile long passing tracks and 125mph infrastructure.

FDOT has been remarkable in preserving highway ROWs for rail. Witness the width of the ROW that they have preserved along most of I-95 too. If anyone ever want to build a true HSR along the east coast that ROW still remains a candidate given how much of relatively straight segments it has. The FEC line will never have trains travel on it any faster than 110mph. What they are building for the Miami - Orlando projects is at about the bleeding edge of what is achievable on that ROW, and we are all keeping our fingers crossed about the grade crossing issue that will inevitably crop up given the lack of driving skills of average Florida drivers.

 

[jis]

Yeah. We in Central Florida tend to forget what an unholy mess it already is in South Florida! Last time I drove down to West palm beach I did get a taste of it. And it just gets worse as you get closer to Miami. The again the technique used all over Asia is still available. A lot of the new rail infrastructure is being build suspended way above crowded ground in urban and semi-urban areas. Typically they are being built on relatively aesthetic elevated structures 50' to 70' above the ground, so they do not block too much of the sky. The highway corridors can still be used in that way, though it does increase the cost of construction by quite a bit. But still it is much less than trying to acquire land in such areas.

 

[Anderson]

Jis,

You said that FEC won't have trains going faster than 110 MPH on a segment. Was that due to shared-use limits on the East Coast Line (or the added cost of breaking 110 MPH with grade crossings) or limits of their equipment (and if it's the latter, why spend on the 125 MPH infrastructure if they can't use it unless there's a plan for a "next gen" equipment set)?

And what Brian's saying all makes a lot of sense to me. Considering the constraints they're operating with, they've got good reason to manage expectations (not to mention not rattling bondholders with the possibility of another $2bn bond issue for those two projects).

 

[jis]

There is absolutely no way to get a fully sealed corridor along the FEC alignment. That is why. No one is going to put up with massive grade crossing impenetrable gates anywhere along that ROW, and in most places there is not enough space to build overpasses, and underpasses will be underwater. The equipment (Chargers + Viaggio)is fine for 125mph, but they will never get track infrastructure along the shore on which 125mph will be allowed by the FRA because the necessary changes will not be accepted by the communities. FEC knows this very well and that is why they are managing expectations ratehr than leaning against impenetrable windmills.

They can and will run at 125mph once they gate onto the new grade separated infrastructure between Cocoa and OIA.

 

[MattW]

Is there enough un-crossed RoW south of Cocoa to allow anything greater than 110 for long enough stretches to make sense? Obviously with something silly like a mile between grade crossings, there's no reason to put the limit any higher, but any stretches with 5? 10? 20 miles between crossings?

 

[jis]

No.

 

[MattW]

Mmm, I could have probably answered that for myself, it looks like after Cocoa, the development never gets sparse. Even north of the Space Coast there are only a handful of areas of sparser development.

 

[Anderson]

Yeah...I went and looked and the only sort-of-plausible area would probably be north of Daytona...at which point you're fighting over maybe 2-3 minutes on something like a five-hour run.

 

[jis]

The only way we will ever get 125mph or higher railroad along the east coast is if a new line is built along the I-95 (and perhaps Turnpike south of WPB) ROW. It will most likely have to be a continuous elevated structure ike the original Shinkansen was at many places. Fortunately, probably not many people will mind an elevated structure it the rail ROW is properly sound barriered.

 

[Anderson]

Joe McHugh spoke with VRPI this past week. There's a lot he said, but one thing of interest was that apparently FEC/AAF/Brightline is still interested in running a Meteor section along their tracks. I think he said they were pretty well set with funding (they'd do it internally if all else failed).

 

[jis]

Joe McHugh spoke with VRPI this past week. There's a lot he said, but one thing of interest was that apparently FEC/AAF/Brightline is still interested in running a Meteor section along their tracks. I think he said they were pretty well set with funding (they'd do it internally if all else failed).

I have heard such a rumor too. The holdup apparently is getting agreement on stations, where, who funds and how. Getting agreements in place with the towns is muddied in some places by the bad blood on Orlando service. I suspect it is on the shelf unto 2018 or 19.

 

[MattW]

That's pretty impressive that they want to fund it themselves. Of course, by "fund" I assume they basically mean the capital improvements, which looking from the business perspective, means the FEC (or FECI, or whoever own who this weeK) gets its properties a direct rail link to the northeast with little more than an initial investment, that will be eclipsed by any potential COC-JAX improvements as well as providing a reason to jump-start that end of the corridor, and possibly receiving Federal aid since we're talking an interstate route here.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Check it out everyone, the first passenger car shell completed.

http://gobrightline.com/press/press-releases/2016/01/26/brightline-trains-taking-shape-siemens-completes-first-passenger-coach-shell

 

[jis]

Cool! Looks really good. Very European!

 

[Bob Dylan]

Cool! Looks really good. Very European!

Ditto!

 

[Palmetto]

Ah well. The leadership in Martin County is meeting to decide whether they should authorize spending yet more money on opposing Brightline.