Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[GBNorman]

Talk about dedication to a cause: a fellow who posts at another site, this past Saturday, flew LGA-MIA, took a taxicab to Miami Central, rode Brightline to West Palm, then reversed the route - apparently all in one day.

WOW

 

[Anderson]

Talk about dedication to a cause: a fellow who posts at another site, this past Saturday, flew LGA-MIA, took a taxicab to Miami Central, rode Brightline to West Palm, then reversed the route - apparently all in one day.

WOW

It wasn't that bad, but my trips for both first runs were mildly epic:
-One of them involved flying B6 down the night before, crashing with Mom and Dad at the condo in Highland Beach, taking the train with them WPB-FLL and back, and then hopping on B6 to come back to Virginia for the rest of a science fiction convention.
-The other involved breaking away from parachuting outside Ocala for a day...drove down to WPB with a friend, spent the night, took the first train into Miami Central and then back up to WPB, then drove back up to Ocala...and jumping out of a plane that afternoon.

Mind you, these were first runs, so I'll ask for a partial bye on them.

(There was also my opening day loop on the first Norfolk train: Drove to NFK, took the train NFK-RVR-NPN, Thruway bus NPN-NFK, drove home.  Got some sleep.  Got up and took an accounting final.)

 

[jis]

https://www.thenextmiami.com/bright...planning-on-paying-off-600m-bonds-next-month/

 

[Brian_tampa]

Brightline/Virgin is still working on a FLL airport station. But the big news is they are talking with American, Jetblue, and Southwest about forming partnerships to facilitate travel between the different modes.

Quote:

Bhandari adds that Virgin Trains is in discussions with American Airlines, JetBlue and Southwest to offer "park, check-in, take Lyft for the last-mile" packages that allow passengers to take trains to nearby stations for travel to and from Miami and Fort Lauderdale airports.

See full article here

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/a...lans-airline-partners-for-orlando-air-456817/

This is the result of 20+ years of foresight and planning by the GOAA and will be well worth it in the end for the Orlando airport.

 

[Anderson]

Called it. Totally called it.

*ahem*

Enough of this was obvious that it would be hard to believe that Virgin wouldn't follow this model, and I strongly suspect that Virgin will end up adding Virgin to the mix.

With all-domestic itineraries, one thing I would strongly look at in Virgin's case would be through-checking bags, at least from flights to the train. Granted, the TSA is borderline inept, but given the relevant security screening needs that seems like a decent option to offer ("Skip the airport baggage claim!").

As to the ridership data: I'm glad to see that, and I agree that ridership may well be above estimates (though we're not yet to year-over-year comparables yet, of course) but the sticking point has been on the side of ticket prices and ancillary revenue. The latter may "take care of itself" in several respects (Tri-Rail to downtown adding track access fees, and...when is all of the retail/food in the station supposed to be operational?) but the former is still a concern, and will probably be even more of one in the context of Tri-Rail going to MiamiCentral.

 

[Anderson]

BTW, does anybody have a link to the actual February ridership/revenue release for February?

 

[Brian_tampa]

More info from the forthcoming bond sale via the prospectus document. I am trying to get a copy of this document as well.

https://floridapolitics.com/archive...a-reveals-more-plan-details-in-new-prospectus

 

[Brian_tampa]

BTW, does anybody have a link to the actual February ridership/revenue release for February?

https://emma.msrb.org/IssuerHomePage/Issuer?id=C44A6C3E4A6604C25DDE3C1C5C7FA2E4&type=G

Click accept terms and once the new page appears go to the disclosures tab. All monthly reports are there. There is no direct link to individual reports. The link will send you to the home page for FDFC infrastructure bonds.

 

[Anderson]

Brian,
Much obliged, and I apolgize in advance if I forget that post above. I'd wondered what the issue was with those links, so thanks for telling me.

 

[neroden]

I'll repeat my general observation that railroads are economies-of-scale businesses. Brightline/Virgin is not going to make a profit unless it gets *larger*. Orlando is essential and Tampa is important.

 

[jis]

Virgin Trains USA's Patrick Goddard Wants to Get Americans Out of Their Cars

https://www.cntraveler.com/story/vi...dard-wants-to-get-americans-out-of-their-cars

 

[jis]

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/business/fl-bz-south-florida-rail-station-future-20190329-story.html

 

[cocojacoby]

The situation in Florida is getting a bit complicated to say the least.

Tri-Rail should have always gone down the FEC in south Florida. Amtrak also should go down the entire FEC from Jacksonville. Jacksonville Union Station is seriously being considered for reactivation and that's on the FEC south of where Amtrak branches off to the west and the population centers are along the east coast. But there seems to be no plans for a NW wye so Virgin trains (and maybe even Amtrak) could run Jacksonville-Orlando-Tampa which seems rather important. There also is no planned station near Cocoa and the popular Space Coast with the Kennedy Space Center and very busy Port Canaveral Cruise Port.

Amtrak should go the new Miami Airport Station or Miami Central but goes to the worst choice of the three Miami area stations out in the middle of nowhere with no services.

Serving the Port of Miami is a great idea but the physical connection makes it rather difficult since you can't easily go from Miami Central to the Port without a long timely backup move. Bus transfer would probably be quicker and would be able to serve all cruise terminals.

There are a lot of moving pieces here and putting them all together is going to be a bit of a challenge. There are now a lot of great rail assets in Florida but they just don't all fit together right.

 

[jis]

A Brightline station is in the works at Cocoa-Rockledge. It is just not as sexy a project as some of the others that we hear about all the time.

BTW, Brightline actually does not need the very expensive in real estate cost northward leg of the Wye. Since its trains can reverse easily, they can run a Tampa - Orlando - Coca - JAX service quite easily. But all of that is after the basic service starts to Orlando.

And whoever said that the same train will serve both Miami Central and Miami Port anyway?

I have very grave doubts that Amtrak will ever run on the new Brightline trackage. I can see Amtrak still operating a train or two a day along the coast original FEC line, but not to Miami Central. They will transfer over to Tri-Rail between Mangonia and West Palm Beach to the tracks they use south of WPB now..

 

[Anderson]

Amtrak has looked at service on the FEC. I'm not entirely sure why it didn't come together, however, but at least to begin with Amtrak never had the right to bulldoze their way onto FEC since FEC got out of the passenger business prior to A-Day. This is similar to the lack of service to Des Moines: The Rock Island never joined Amtrak, so Amtrak never had "automatic" access rights there.

(Had the DRG&W really wanted to, they could probably have tried a train-off for the whole route at some point and Amtrak would have been in the same boat there. Ditto Southern, had they managed to simply "dump" the Crescent.)

I think part of the issue has been Amtrak not getting the funding to do it, and part was FEC's folks starting up the whole Brightline thing (which plausibly killed any interest in working with Amtrak).

 

[GBNorman]

Looks like Sir Richard's first "footprint" will be the renaming of Miami Central Station to Virgin Miamicentral:

https://virginmiamicentral.com

So I guess for the reasonable future, Brightline will serve Miami at the Virgin Miamicentral Station.

 

[pennyk]

Orlando Sentinel Editorial (4/4/19 print edition): "Let Virgin Trains roll, just leave taxpayers out of it."

https://www.orlandosentinel.com/opi...rgin-trains-florida-bonds-20190403-story.html

"...On Friday, a quasi-government agency is scheduled to decide whether Virgin Trains USA — the new name for Brightline — should be allowed to sell $950 million in tax-exempt bonds to complete a rail project linking Miami and Orlando. The agency already approved $1.75 billion in bonds for the project..."

 

[jis]

Amtrak has looked at service on the FEC. I'm not entirely sure why it didn't come together, however, but at least to begin with Amtrak never had the right to bulldoze their way onto FEC since FEC got out of the passenger business prior to A-Day. This is similar to the lack of service to Des Moines: The Rock Island never joined Amtrak, so Amtrak never had "automatic" access rights there.

(Had the DRG&W really wanted to, they could probably have tried a train-off for the whole route at some point and Amtrak would have been in the same boat there. Ditto Southern, had they managed to simply "dump" the Crescent.)

I think part of the issue has been Amtrak not getting the funding to do it, and part was FEC's folks starting up the whole Brightline thing (which plausibly killed any interest in working with Amtrak).

There was also the minor issue of how does an Amtrak train cross over from FEC to TriRail to make it to its Miami terminal. The solution is about to be inaugurated in the form of the Northwood Connection's southbound FEC to TriRail link, just north of West Palm Beach. Until that was in place it was pretty much impossible for Amtrak to run down the FEC and get to Miami station or Hialeah maintenance facility, specially before the Iris Connection was built to get the TriRail trains to Miami Central, which just happened last year (2018).

The northbound FEC to TriRail connection was built and inaugurated last year, and is mostly for freight use now. Some day TriRail Coastal service may come up the FEC and use this to get to Mangonia TriRail station and perhaps beyond, if TriRail chooses to acquire more of the inland route from CSX and extend service on it. Though beyond Mangonia CSX leaves the coast and runs through marshes and sticks.

The new Southbound link is slated for use by TriRail for extending service on FEC to Jupiter from its own WPB station.

 

[AGM.12]

Somewhere, I read that as part of its 5 year plan, Amtrak will seek to acquire right of way. One of these mentioned was the CSX Auburndale sub. Does Amtrak plan a florida version of the NEC? If so what effect would this have on Virgin/Brightline ? Would they fight to stop Amtrak, or just ignore them?

 

[Anderson]

Somewhere, I read that as part of its 5 year plan, Amtrak will seek to acquire right of way. One of these mentioned was the CSX Auburndale sub. Does Amtrak plan a florida version of the NEC? If so what effect would this have on Virgin/Brightline ? Would they fight to stop Amtrak, or just ignore them?

In re the Auburndale Sub, I think the issue there is that CSX kinda wants to dump the line. There isn't really much "internal" ridership here, so the odds of it becoming a "second NEC" seem small. I also suspect that there would be some pressure against the state supporting an Amtrak route designed to fight with Brightline. An interesting side-question, however, would be whether if Amtrak did this there would be an effort to patch it together with the SunRail-owned tracks in Orlando, since if you did that, you'd have a stretch of track from DeLand to Miami in public ownership.

Edit: And of course, the question of extending that ownership towards either Tampa or Jacksonville then enters the picture. Looking at Florida's old rail plan, IIRC the passenger operations proposed were basically that plus the theoretical Brightline build-out. I think the question then becomes figuring out what sorts of services to run (commuter/local vs express) and whether you can get everyone serving a few good common/interchange stations in the major metro areas.

 

[cirdan]

Serving the Port of Miami is a great idea but the physical connection makes it rather difficult since you can't easily go from Miami Central to the Port without a long timely backup move. Bus transfer would probably be quicker and would be able to serve all cruise terminals.

Is there even space to hold a passenger train at the port of Miami? Looking at the Google Earth satellite pictures there just appears to be a set of long sidings/spurs used for transshipping containers. A passenger train would be totally lost there and it would still be a long way from where the cruise ships call.

Yes, I know there has been, and possibly still occasionally is, the occasional corporate entertainment train with private varnish that does go there. But that's not really the same as serving cruise ships.

 

[jis]

Is there even space to hold a passenger train at the port of Miami? Looking at the Google Earth satellite pictures there just appears to be a set of long sidings/spurs used for transshipping containers. A passenger train would be totally lost there and it would still be a long way from where the cruise ships call.

Yes, I know there has been, and possibly still occasionally is, the occasional corporate entertainment train with private varnish that does go there. But that's not really the same as serving cruise ships.

I have actually visited FEC's property at Port Miami several times during the FECRS Annual Conventions, and contrary to what might surmise based on Google Earth perusal, there is actually plenty of space there. They might have to repaint a road or two differently, involving no construction, to make space for building a platform along the northern edge of the property, possibly even with Disney style Tram facilities to move passengers to the cruise terminal across the approach road.

Clearly it is not going to be something that does not require some significant investment, but space is not going to be a problem. During the FECRS Convention visits I have heard Port people discuss how they could put in a single platform passenger station to feed cruise ships there years before Branson showed up.

 

[jis]

In re the Auburndale Sub, I think the issue there is that CSX kinda wants to dump the line. There isn't really much "internal" ridership here, so the odds of it becoming a "second NEC" seem small. I also suspect that there would be some pressure against the state supporting an Amtrak route designed to fight with Brightline. An interesting side-question, however, would be whether if Amtrak did this there would be an effort to patch it together with the SunRail-owned tracks in Orlando, since if you did that, you'd have a stretch of track from DeLand to Miami in public ownership.

Edit: And of course, the question of extending that ownership towards either Tampa or Jacksonville then enters the picture. Looking at Florida's old rail plan, IIRC the passenger operations proposed were basically that plus the theoretical Brightline build-out. I think the question then becomes figuring out what sorts of services to run (commuter/local vs express) and whether you can get everyone serving a few good common/interchange stations in the major metro areas.

The real problem with the Auburndale - WPB segment of CSX is that south of Winter Haven, the population centers are small and either poor or very rich in gated communities (unlikely to ride a train). The big ridership is Tampa/Orlando to South Florida. Some entity could provide a less luxurious lower cost service and that could do well if it was reliable. But a Brightline like service would probably beat it in running time.

The biggest promise of local service is in extending SunRail from Poinciana to Tampa. South of Auburndale, not so much. There it would be a "nice to have" thing, but probably lower in priority for Florida than additional services around Miami, Orlampa, East Coast and Jacksonville.

Some day one could dream of a north south corridor running from Sebring upto Ocala or some such, but not in the near future in my reckoning.

And at best Amtrak could be the operating contractor for some, though it could as well be SunRail or an entity like that which FDOT has more control over. The crystal ball is pretty hazy....

 

[Mystic River Dragon]

So I guess for the reasonable future, Brightline will serve Miami at the Virgin Miamicentral Station.[/QUOTE]

Well, that's a mouthful. It will take longer to say the station name than take the train ride!

 

[jis]

So I guess for the reasonable future, Brightline will serve Miami at the Virgin Miamicentral Station.

Well, that's a mouthful. It will take longer to say the station name than take the train ride!

Miami Central will always be the anchor of Virgin Trains USA service in South Florida. There may be other terminals for specific purpose, but most Virgin (Brightline) trains will originate and terminate at Miami Central.