Brightline Trains Florida discussion

[Mailliw]

Amtrak's service is too limited and unreliable to be a major competitor to Brightline.

 

[joelkfla]

I don’t even see Tri-Rail as a competitor since Tri-Rail has more stations in different locations too.

Even when I take public transportation to Palm Beach County (I try not to voluntarily head to Dade County) the Tri-Rail stations are closer to my origin and destination. Thought about Brightline, but Tri-Rail offers more trains (and starts earlier) and is much cheaper. Don’t have to mess around with a security checkpoint or trying to book/reserve a seat on an app either.

Now if I attended a concert in Downtown Miami, Brightline would be the obvious choice. As early as Tri-Rail starts, I always thought their evening schedule was lacking. Maybe they’ll revisit that once service to downtown Miami starts (if it ever does).

Sounds like you just made the case (in 2nd paragraph) for Tri-Rail being Brightline's competition.

 

[chrsjrcj]

Sounds like you just made the case (in 2nd paragraph) for Tri-Rail being Brightline's competition.

As I rambled on I thought the same thing. Brightline is great for downtown to downtown travel in the 3 cities. Tri-Rail is better at going to places I like to go though

 

[me_little_me]

As I rambled on I thought the same thing. Brightline is great for downtown to downtown travel in the 3 cities. Tri-Rail is better at going to places I like to go though

It's like comparing a bus to the LIRR. The bus has more places it stops and is cheaper because it provides less in the way of comfort and "service" but the RR is more expensive because it is faster and more comfortable for the longer distance. They don't compete. The complement each other.

 

[Qapla]

They don't compete. The complement each other.

If you could only get more people to understand this - the same holds true for air and road travel as well as freight

 

[cirdan]

It's like comparing a bus to the LIRR. The bus has more places it stops and is cheaper because it provides less in the way of comfort and "service" but the RR is more expensive because it is faster and more comfortable for the longer distance. They don't compete. The complement each other.

You could get philosophical about this. Ultimately every corporation in the world and even every individual is in some way in competition with every other individual as far as we are seeking the same limited resources, even if in a roundabout way.

At the same time every corporation and every individual is also in cooperation with every other because its the same world and we play by the same basic rules and pursue the same overall broad ideals.

So cooperation and competition and not absolutes but a sliding scale.

 

[neroden]

The updates continue to be interesting: the bridge construction is preventing the rebuild of the grade crossings nearest the bridges on the north and south sides, so the bridges remain the critical-path item for scheduling.

 

[Qapla]

Brightline Construction: Cocoa Junction Update - January 5, 2022

 

[Brian_tampa]

Brightline to start qualifying runs next Monday, January 17 north of WPB.

Per a press release on the Brightline website from yesterday. Trains limited to 60mph and 1 round trip per day. Trains will run the full length to Cocoa from WPB.

 

[joelkfla]

Brightline to start qualifying runs next Monday, January 17 north of WPB.

Per a press release on the Brightline website from yesterday. Trains limited to 60mph and 1 round trip per day. Trains will run the full length to Cocoa from WPB.

I don't understand. How can they qualify train crew when trackwork, switches, and signals are still in the process of being installed? Won't that just cause confusion?

 

[Brian_tampa]

I don't understand. How can they qualify train crew when trackwork, switches, and signals are still in the process of being installed? Won't that just cause confusion?

I suppose it is better to start early and familiarize crews with the track layout and speed restrictions even as it is modified over the next year. Makes sense as it gives them more time to learn versus a quick process at the end.

 

[Brian_tampa]

I do wonder if these qualification runs will be integrated into the PTC testing effort that will be required on this route? Since this will be 110mph MAS territory, which is not too common in the USA, hopefully they won't have too many PTC related issues to resolve before revenue service starts in 2023.

 

[neroden]

Brightline to start qualifying runs next Monday, January 17 north of WPB.

Per a press release on the Brightline website from yesterday. Trains limited to 60mph and 1 round trip per day. Trains will run the full length to Cocoa from WPB.

That... doesn't seem entirely possible. Some of the bridges aren't there yet. I suppose these are training runs -- but I'm not sure they qualify formally as route familiarization / qualifying runs (for the regulatory requirements) until the route actually exists.

The press release is mixing up a bunch of different terms and seems quite imprecise, so I suspect this is the situation.

 

[west point]

60 MPH max speed? That sounds like not all grade crossing signals are yet programed for higher speeds. There may be needed programing and maybe some hardware to allow 110 MPH? 60 sounds like max freight speeds that FEC has programed for the grade crossings?

EDIT: Previous update videos of construction showed some crossings with older gates and mechanisms.

 

[jis]

60 MPH max speed? That sounds like not all grade crossing signals are yet programed for higher speeds. There may be needed programing and maybe some hardware to allow 110 MPH? 60 sounds like max freight speeds that FEC has programed for the grade crossings?

EDIT: Previous update videos of construction showed some crossings with older gates and mechanisms.

Not all grade crossing have been double tracked yet either, in my neck of the woods. There are single track grade crossing with second track in place on one or both sides and there are double track crossing with the second track not present on one or both sides.

Port Malabar Rd is due to shut down next week for crossing upgrade, and then the next adjacent crossing will be handled. They are orchestrating it carefully so fire departments continue to have reasonable access across the tracks through the process.

So programming of crossing is not something that is currently being pursued in a big way. There are many other things that remain to be done in Brevard County. They do have the second track in operation further south, from WPB to Jupiter, I am told.

 

[Qapla]

Watching this short video reinforces the fact that there is no reason for anyone to try to "beat the train" - Brightline goes by so quickly there is not much of a delay and impatience is just not worth risking a life.

 

[joelkfla]

Watching this short video reinforces the fact that there is no reason for anyone to try to "beat the train" - Brightline goes by so quickly there is not much of a delay and impatience is just not worth risking a life.

Obviously, I would never encourage going around a gate. But from a typical yahoo's POV, there's no way of knowing whether it's gonna be a Brightline or an FECR freight.

 

[jis]

Obviously, I would never encourage going around a gate. But from a typical yahoo's POV, there's no way of knowing whether it's gonna be a Brightline or an FECR freight.

Once Brightline starts running its full schedule, it would not be a mistake to assume it is Brightline during the day. FECR freights are few and far between and even fewer during daylight hours. Hopefully the "typical yahoos" will learn and get used to it.

I don't understand. How can they qualify train crew when trackwork, switches, and signals are still in the process of being installed? Won't that just cause confusion?

They are currently qualifying them to operate a train on that segment under current conditions of course. After qualification they will be able to legally operate a Brightline set under current operating rules between WPB and Cocoa.

When the upgraded tracks are ready they will have to upgrade their qualification for that situation, as will the freight train operators even for freight trains. The theory is that since they will already be intimately familiar with the geographical lay of the land, that process will take less time. I don't see any fallacy in that.

 

[neroden]

The theory is that since they will already be intimately familiar with the geographical lay of the land, that process will take less time. I don't see any fallacy in that.

That seems reasonable. I mean, it's going to look a bit different with new bridges, and the signals will be relocated... but why not get started?

Thinking about it, I think there may be another aspect to this.

If they're training brand-new engineers -- people who aren't qualified as engineers anywhere yet -- I believe there's a rather long timeline of practice runs under supervision before they're allowed to operate trains on their own. Many months longer than the timeline for a qualified engineer to qualify on a particular territory. Those practice runs can be done on *any* territory.

Amtrak would of course simply do those practice runs on some other operating line, but Brightline doesn't have a lot of operating lines to choose from. Once they have a couple of engineers qualified to run on this line in its current state (which FEC certainly does), they can start using this line to train brand-new engineers, rather than doing all that training on Miami-WPB.

We know that there's enough of a shortage that all agencies (Amtrak, commuter railroads, etc.) are currently training brand-new engineers, so I would assume Brightline needs to do the same.

 

[Qapla]

Brightline Construction: Work Train on the Orlando Line - January 10, 2022
a look at a work train at work on Brightline’s new Orlando line between Cocoa and Orlando International Airport

 

[cirdan]

I suppose it is better to start early and familiarize crews with the track layout and speed restrictions even as it is modified over the next year. Makes sense as it gives them more time to learn versus a quick process at the end.

Might also be used to get some "burn-in" on the new trains and iron out any teething troubles without inconveniencing passengers.

 

[west point]

Can we expect with only one R/T a day that will not interfere with the various bridges construction?

 

[Qapla]

The FEC trains have continued to run their daily schedule and that has not interfered with the bridge constructions - surely another train or two a day would not have any real impact on the work.

 

[west point]

The FEC trains have continued to run their daily schedule and that has not interfered with the bridge constructions - surely another train or two a day would not have any real impact on the work.

Have noticed with the overhead videos that the cranes are inactive whenever a train is crossing a bridge. Maybe a 10 - 15 minute break? Also the track work as well?

 

[jis]

FECR has like 4-5 freights a day, some of which are at night through this section. This will be one additional train. It won't cause much disruption to work.