Brightline Trains West!

[cirdan]

Always said I'll believe Brightline West is happening when it starts construction and not a moment before. Hopefully construction actually will begin soon.

I've been cautiously cynical for a long time, but I'm shifting to the point of view that it is going to happen.

 

[leemell]

From BL West:
https://www.brightlinewest.com/media/press-releases
January 16, 2024
LAS VEGAS – Brightline West is launching field investigation work in Nevada within the proposed rail corridor within Interstate 15 (I-15) right-of-way. The field work will advance final stages of design in preparation for a groundbreaking. Brightline West will connect Las Vegas and Southern California with America’s first true high speed rail system.

 

[Touchdowntom9]

Alan Fisher posted a video today on Brightline West's waiver to use Euro parts on its signal system encouraging people to comment.



While I disagree with him on so many things, I still tend to watch his videos. This video had me pause for a moment because I realized how little I understood about signal systems.

My question is what exactly does ERTMS use to determine signaling (is it wireless at all, does it use RFID signals imbedded in rail-ties, why is it so much better than PTC or whatever system used in the NEC (and Brightline Florida), how does CBTC used in the NYC Subway system differ (and why isn't that the standard for all passenger rail based on the level of accuracy claimed), and lastly what does Japan use (given their system has to be fantastic and reliable based on their on time performance and lack of accidents)?

Anyone who knows anything on this would be a great benefit--I spend so much time complaining about signal systems but don't have a clue how they really work and how to solve them.

 

[Cal]

Alan Fisher posted a video today on Brightline West's waiver to use Euro parts on its signal system encouraging people to comment.



While I disagree with him on so many things, I still tend to watch his videos. This video had me pause for a moment because I realized how little I understood about signal systems.

My question is what exactly does ERTMS use to determine signaling (is it wireless at all, does it use RFID signals imbedded in rail-ties, why is it so much better than PTC or whatever system used in the NEC (and Brightline Florida), how does CBTC used in the NYC Subway system differ (and why isn't that the standard for all passenger rail based on the level of accuracy claimed), and lastly what does Japan use (given their system has to be fantastic and reliable based on their on time performance and lack of accidents)?

Anyone who knows anything on this would be a great benefit--I spend so much time complaining about signal systems but don't have a clue how they really work and how to solve them.

And would this signaling system actually hinder interoperability?

 

[railiner]

From BL West:
https://www.brightlinewest.com/media/press-releases
January 16, 2024
LAS VEGAS – Brightline West is launching field investigation work in Nevada within the proposed rail corridor within Interstate 15 (I-15) right-of-way. The field work will advance final stages of design in preparation for a groundbreaking. Brightline West will connect Las Vegas and Southern California with America’s first true high speed rail system.

I'm not a civil engineer, but I would imagine Brightline could access the detailed engineering study's made for the initial and subsequent engineering of the Interstate 15? That might have saved them a lot of work?

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Here from Siemens is an explanation on how ERTMS works. It's in Dutch, but there are English subtitles embedded in the video.

 

[west point]

Using a GPS based system has many dangers. The war in Ukraine is showing how easy it is to jam GPS. War always brings out newer tech and who knows what will happen in the near future? Using radio signals to transmit positions has many of the same restrictions that GPS systems may have.

The Amtrak rails part of the NEC uses ACSES that depends on a transponder embedded between the rails to transmit signal and speed restrictions. It certainly is more expensive as each transponder is going to require a signal case or bungalow to operate the properties of the rail ahead.

 

[GDRRiley]

Alan Fisher posted a video today on Brightline West's waiver to use Euro parts on its signal system encouraging people to comment.



While I disagree with him on so many things, I still tend to watch his videos. This video had me pause for a moment because I realized how little I understood about signal systems.

My question is what exactly does ERTMS use to determine signaling (is it wireless at all, does it use RFID signals imbedded in rail-ties, why is it so much better than PTC or whatever system used in the NEC (and Brightline Florida), how does CBTC used in the NYC Subway system differ (and why isn't that the standard for all passenger rail based on the level of accuracy claimed), and lastly what does Japan use (given their system has to be fantastic and reliable based on their on time performance and lack of accidents)?

Anyone who knows anything on this would be a great benefit--I spend so much time complaining about signal systems but don't have a clue how they really work and how to solve them.

ETCS is the signaling side of ERTMS. it uses RFID ballasts as the primary means of location tracking. The train then tells the signaling system where it is. This only applies to L2 the version that will be used by brightline west and CAHSR.
L1 is a overlay on top of a legacy system while L3 moves to all virtual blocks and is still very much in testing

And would this signaling system actually hinder interoperability?

Not with CAHSR the 1 system it plans to though run with. I-ETMS is already being pushed pretty hard to run at 125mph. it was built for freight service not passenger service.
I don't know how it would handle the 12TPH CAHSR is required to met and the 20TPH it has be planned around.

 

[jis]

Using a GPS based system has many dangers. The war in Ukraine is showing how easy it is to jam GPS. War always brings out newer tech and who knows what will happen in the near future? Using radio signals to transmit positions has many of the same restrictions that GPS systems may have.

The Amtrak rails part of the NEC uses ACSES that depends on a transponder embedded between the rails to transmit signal and speed restrictions. It certainly is more expensive as each transponder is going to require a signal case or bungalow to operate the properties of the rail ahead.

That is not how ACSES works.

The Transponders only provide position on route and civil speed restriction information. The transponders are static. They do not require any associated signal case or anything like that.

Signal information is transmitted through coded track circuit.

The radio link is used to provide certain dynamic updates like TSRs and emergency stop release etc.

 

[Caesar La Rock]

Well things are happening.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/...along-i-15-for-lv-to-la-rail-project-2999656/

 

[Willbridge]

Well things are happening.
https://www.reviewjournal.com/news/...along-i-15-for-lv-to-la-rail-project-2999656/

Now, if it was Real Private Enterprise, the competing line would be getting ready to roll boulders off of cliffs on the survey lines, like the Hill and Harriman race up the Deschutes Canyon on the Oregon Trunk.

 

[Just-Thinking-51]

And would this signaling system actually hinder interoperability?

Interoperability is hinder by requiring any and all train to have ERTMS system. If you have a working ERTMS system then you can proceed. It’s not uncommon to have multiple traffic control system on a locomotive in Europe. There an actually space listing the county codes that a locomotive is able to run in. Signals and overhead voltages have standardized, but it’s taken time and money to reach those specifications.

 

[jis]

Anyone who knows anything on this would be a great benefit--I spend so much time complaining about signal systems but don't have a clue how they really work and how to solve them.

You can start with the following AU thread and then dig deeper from the material available there:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/all-about-ptc-i-etms-and-acses.81994/#post-957561

In order to understand the whole thing be prepared to spend some significant quality time on it. This stuff cannot be explained fully in a cursory two page article. But the closes one can get to such would be the PDF posted in the following post on AU:

https://www.amtraktrains.com/threads/all-about-ptc-i-etms-and-acses.81994/#post-992854

And would this signaling system actually hinder interoperability?

Theoretically yes. Practically not as much as one imagines. The loco component of these systems is mostly neatly packaged in a single module and perhaps a few antennas/track pickups. It is not uncommon for a loco to have two or these systems installed depending on where it is designed to travel. This BTW is also true for electric traction power pickups. It is very unlikely that there will ever be a single train control system standard adopted by everyone all over the US and even less so all over the world.

 

[George Harris]

I'm not a civil engineer, but I would imagine Brightline could access the detailed engineering study's made for the initial and subsequent engineering of the Interstate 15? That might have saved them a lot of work?

I am a Civil Engineer, and the usual is to gather up all reports and studies that have been done in the area of concern first, and then work out from there. I would be very surprised to find they did not gather all studies that they could get their hands on. Just having existing reports can save you considerable work, yes, but you must do your own studies to update, correct, and fill in the gaps. You can't just take a 20+ year old study and go.

 

[George Harris]

Concerning the use of European signaling and similar practices: They should be approached with a large dose of skepticism. Many things they do do not work as well as they claim. Many of the US normal practices are more rugged, simpler, and more reliable than their European equivalents.

 

[jis]

Concerning the use of European signaling and similar practices: They should be approached with a large dose of skepticism. Many things they do do not work as well as they claim. Many of the US normal practices are more rugged, simpler, and more reliable than their European equivalents.

Interestingly, the Indians decided that they could not afford the cost of ETCS which provides only a subset of functionality that the Indians require. So they developed their own system to meet their requirements and be very significantly cheaper to deploy and operate. See Kavach Train Protection System.

There is nothing magic about the European systems. They have been developed to address a very European requirement of getting dozens of railways under different administrations to sort of somehow work together, as it turns out, at rather great expense. That does not make the system used suitable for all other environments necessarily. Add to that the fact that they seem to take a decade to deploy their system satisfactorily in almost any route segment.

However, in the US where there is no system available for trains operating at 200mph and no consolidated design and standards organization with an enormous laboratory attached like RDSO in India, and no compunction to hold costs in check for anything, it probably makes sense to buy European trains with European systems lock stock and barrel

 

[west point]

IMO the FRA and the various USA RRs have neglected the "KISS" principle!

 

[cirdan]

Using a GPS based system has many dangers. The war in Ukraine is showing how easy it is to jam GPS. War always brings out newer tech and who knows what will happen in the near future? Using radio signals to transmit positions has many of the same restrictions that GPS systems may have.

Jamming may be the low tech variant of sabotage.

I guess a sufficiently advanced hacker might even get a train to mis-report its position, which could potentially cause all sorts of havoc if not even collisions.

 

[cirdan]

Theoretically yes. Practically not as much as one imagines. The loco component of these systems is mostly neatly packaged in a single module and perhaps a few antennas/track pickups. It is not uncommon for a loco to have two or these systems installed depending on where it is designed to travel. This BTW is also true for electric traction power pickups. It is very unlikely that there will ever be a single train control system standard adopted by everyone all over the US and even less so all over the world.

In addition to which one must consider the timescale by which interoperability will be required. The full completion of CAHSR seems to be decades away now, and could well be beyond the anticipated lifetime of the initial Brightline West trains.

 

[GDRRiley]

Concerning the use of European signaling and similar practices: They should be approached with a large dose of skepticism. Many things they do do not work as well as they claim. Many of the US normal practices are more rugged, simpler, and more reliable than their European equivalents.

ETCS is looking like it will be chosen by Canada, it is at least being used for GO. We will see it working for North American sized freights soon.

The I-ETMS relying on GPS make it far worse with major shortcomings. Its a barley functional system that pretty often dies. Had we gone pulse code with beacons maybe it would be more reliable but in its current form it is not.

 

[Bob Dylan]

According to a Story in the LA Times( behind a Pay Wall)Brightline West is planning to charge $400 for a Round-trip between Southern Cal and Vegas!

If so, ridership will probably not be enough to sustain this route due to much cheaper alternatives such as car,bus and cheap flights!

 

[jis]

According to a Story in the LA Times( behind a Pay Wall)Brightline West is planning to charge $400 for a Round-trip between Southern Cal and Vegas!

If so, ridership will probably not be enough to sustain this route due to much cheaper alternatives such as car,bus and cheap flights!

I would not pay too much attention to the LA Times speculations at this time. Brightline is very good at figuring out what to charge to fill their trains.

 

[cirdan]

According to a Story in the LA Times( behind a Pay Wall)Brightline West is planning to charge $400 for a Round-trip between Southern Cal and Vegas!

Whether or not that is unreasonable depends on the situation.

If it's going to be for a premium-class experience with all the bells and whistles and in a peak travel period, I guess they could charge even more than that and still find buyers.

 

[MARC Rider]

According to a Story in the LA Times( behind a Pay Wall)Brightline West is planning to charge $400 for a Round-trip between Southern Cal and Vegas!

If so, ridership will probably not be enough to sustain this route due to much cheaper alternatives such as car,bus and cheap flights!

The distance between Rancho Cucamonga and Las Vegas is about the same as that between Washington and New York. I did a test booking and found they are charging $454 for Acela First Class this coming Sunday on 2252, 11 AM departure.

It's my experience that one can ride the Acela for considerably less than that, and, indeed, the Acela is pretty well patronized.

 

[user 1215]

The distance between Rancho Cucamonga and Las Vegas is about the same as that between Washington and New York. I did a test booking and found they are charging $454 for Acela First Class this coming Sunday on 2252, 11 AM departure.

It's my experience that one can ride the Acela for considerably less than that, and, indeed, the Acela is pretty well patronized.

You can fly from Ontario, CA (ONT) to LAS for as little as $43 r/t on a weekday on Frontier with zero perks to $230 on the weekend on Frontier. Southwest also has fares on weekends from $253-$430. This is about par for most mainline carriers on the weekends out of LAX, too.

Meanwhile, in Florida, prices can fluctuate from $49 to $199 each way for Smart and $129 to $299 for Premium each way from Orlando to Miami. So, yeah, the article is plausible, and I expect to see much fluctuation.