Bunches of newbie questions - Empire Builder - Milwaukee to Seattle

[CCC1007]

One of the highlights for me on the EB could be turned into a highlight for you and your kids. And that's the 7+ mile-long Cascade Tunnel under Steven's pass WA. The history of train travel over and through there begins in the late 1800's with the original non-tunnel route over the top, the first tunnel and the second (current) tunnel. The Wellington landslide disaster... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellington,_Washington ...is a big part of the story. But about all that can be seen from the train is the door and ventilation fan enclosure at the East portal if you look out the left side of the train. Here's what it looks like from the ground on the opposite (North) side:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtSQRGZ7fJM That noise heard at the end of this video as the door is closing is from the two 600hp ventilation fans spooling up to blow the diesel smoke out the West end of the tunnel.

There is a second tunnel in western Montana that was built in the late '60s and opened with a bypass of track that was to be flooded in 1970. It is called Flathead tunnel and is only slightly shorter than cascade tunnel. It is usually traversed after dark, but if the eastbound train is late it can be traversed in daylight hours.

 

[FormerOBS]

I would also suggest that you dress comfortably. That means keep a sweater or light jacket available in case you need it to compensate for the air conditioning.

You might also try to get access to the last documentary film directed by Albert Maysles, "In Transit" (2015 release). It covers the 3-day run of the Empire Builder, although the events are not necessarily in chronological or geographical order. It gives a pretty good sense of the ambience on a typical American long-distance train. Unfortunately, I don't know how to advise you re. access to the film. I saw it a couple weeks ago at the Smithsonian in Washington.

Tom

 

[Eric308]

One of the highlights for me on the EB could be turned into a highlight for you and your kids. And that's the 7+ mile-long Cascade Tunnel under Steven's pass WA. The history of train travel over and through there begins in the late 1800's with the original non-tunnel route over the top, the first tunnel and the second (current) tunnel. The Wellington landslide disaster... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wellington,_Washington ...is a big part of the story. But about all that can be seen from the train is the door and ventilation fan enclosure at the East portal if you look out the left side of the train. Here's what it looks like from the ground on the opposite (North) side:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtSQRGZ7fJM That noise heard at the end of this video as the door is closing is from the two 600hp ventilation fans spooling up to blow the diesel smoke out the West end of the tunnel.

Hey niemi24s....I fixed that youtube link for the tunnel you posted. The link did not work with "side" in it. See below.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NtSQRGZ7fJM

 

[Eric308]

There's also usually the option of ordering a chicken dinner ahead of time to be delivered at one of the Montana stops (I forget which one.) I've never ordered it myself, but it sounds pretty tasty and probably not a bad option for a hot meal.

Yes, that is available at Havre if ordered ahead while on the train. It's just cold fried chicken and I was not impressed.

 

[Eric308]

I would also suggest that you dress comfortably. That means keep a sweater or light jacket available in case you need it to compensate for the air conditioning.

You might also try to get access to the last documentary film directed by Albert Maysles, "In Transit" (2015 release). It covers the 3-day run of the Empire Builder, although the events are not necessarily in chronological or geographical order. It gives a pretty good sense of the ambience on a typical American long-distance train. Unfortunately, I don't know how to advise you re. access to the film. I saw it a couple weeks ago at the Smithsonian in Washington.

Tom

I also saw it here in Madison awhile back. Great film...I also tried to find access, but no luck. Not even with Amazon. Here's a trailer, though.

http://www.intransitfilm.com/trailer/

 

[Devil's Advocate]

Getting a Sleeper Room is more expensive than flying so we'd be using Coach for the trip.

&

Are two 'Roomettes' too expensive?

&

Id look into getting 2 Roomettes

&

Perhaps you might be able to afford one leg of the trip in a sleeper

&

To get the one cheap roomette, you will likely need to call Amtrak.

&

I agree with the others above about opting for roomettes if at all possible

&

The Amtrak experience will be far better if you can afford sleeper accommodations.

Perhaps this is AU's way of indirectly admitting that spending the night in Amtrak coach class kind of sucks?

About all that can be seen from the train is the door and ventilation fan enclosure at the East portal if you look out the left side of the train.

Nearly every train tunnel is like that. Doesn't matter if it's the Empire Builder or the California Zephyr or the Eurostar. The only exceptions I can think of are snow sheds, which aren't strictly tunnels, at least in the conventional sense. The stories of how the tunnels were built can make for some interesting reading and the way train travel has changed over time continues to fascinate to me.

There's also usually the option of ordering a chicken dinner ahead of time to be delivered at one of the Montana stops (I forget which one.) I've never ordered it myself, but it sounds pretty tasty and probably not a bad option for a hot meal.

Sounds interesting. Anybody have more information on this?

Unfortunately, I don't know how to advise you re. access to the film. I saw it a couple weeks ago at the Smithsonian in Washington.

I miss out on a lot of documentaries because they take so long to reach even limited distribution that I end up losing interest or simply forget about them entirely.

 

[RalphCT]

The next screening of In Transit will be at the TreeFort Music Fest in Boise Idaho March 23-27, 2016.

More info on the film is at intransit.com

 

[Eric308]

Getting a Sleeper Room is more expensive than flying so we'd be using Coach for the trip.

&

Are two 'Roomettes' too expensive?

&

Id look into getting 2 Roomettes

&

Perhaps you might be able to afford one leg of the trip in a sleeper

&

To get the one cheap roomette, you will likely need to call Amtrak.

&

I agree with the others above about opting for roomettes if at all possible

&

The Amtrak experience will be far better if you can afford sleeper accommodations.

Perhaps this is AU's way of indirectly admitting that spending the night in Amtrak coach class kind of sucks?

About all that can be seen from the train is the door and ventilation fan enclosure at the East portal if you look out the left side of the train.

Nearly every train tunnel is like that. Doesn't matter if it's the Empire Builder or the California Zephyr or the Eurostar. The only exceptions I can think of are snow sheds, which aren't strictly tunnels, at least in the conventional sense. The stories of how the tunnels were built can make for some interesting reading and the way train travel has changed over time continues to fascinate to me.

There's also usually the option of ordering a chicken dinner ahead of time to be delivered at one of the Montana stops (I forget which one.) I've never ordered it myself, but it sounds pretty tasty and probably not a bad option for a hot meal.

Sounds interesting. Anybody have more information on this?

DA...check out the below link. FWIW, I tried the chicken once. It was ice cold with lots of congealed breading on top. I got the lounge dude to heat it, but he charged me a buck and nuked the whole thing including the fruit cup. Never again. I appreciated your "indirectly admitting" comment.

http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/64334-any-other-routes-with-eb-style-fried-chicken-dinner-box/

 

[Tennessee Traveler]

Personally, I would not recommend coach overnight travel. Admittedly, I am 74 and always travel sleeper either in roomette and occasionally in bedroom. As someone suggested, I always use AMSNAG to determine the best price available and then book using the phone to request specific location near center of the car - that roomettes 2,3 or 4 and bedrooms D or E all on the second level. I enjoy the amenities of the sleeping car and the experience of eating all my included meals in the dining car. While my favorite LD train is the California Zephyr, I enjoy my rides on the Empire Builder also and will be traveling on the City of New Orleans and Empire Builder next week March 29 to April 1 to Seattle. Having joined Amtrak Guest Rewards several year ago, my return trip from Seattle to New Orleans is a AGR reward trip all in bedrooms on the Coast Starlight to Sacramento, California Zephyr to Chicago, and City of New Orleans to New Orleans. So I recommend joining Amtrak Guest Rewards before your trip.

 

[niemi24s]

The stories of how the tunnels were built can make for some interesting reading and the way train travel has changed over time continues to fascinate to me.

Me too! The really fascinating aspect of Steven's Pass (to me, at least) is the original route over the top - before any tunneling was done. That route with its 8 switchbacks is highlighted in green on this 1905 topographic map:



The second, present, Cascade Tunnel was added as no topo map could be found showing all three routes. Read that crews were fascinated when going though the loop tunnel above Martin Creek (on the left) because when their locomotive came out of the tunnel they could see the aft part of their train going into the tunnel.

Edit: There may have been a 9th switchback as some maps show the loop in the upper half of the highlighted route also had a switchback - probably to prevent track damage by the 2-10-0 (I think) steam locomotives originally used. IIRC, those behemoths had blind (no flange) driving wheels on the first, third and fifth axles to alleviate track damage on sharp curves.

 

[JayPea]

The stories of how the tunnels were built can make for some interesting reading and the way train travel has changed over time continues to fascinate to me.

Me too! The really fascinating aspect of Steven's Pass (to me, at least) is the original route over the top - before any tunneling was done. That route with its 8 switchbacks is highlighted in green on this 1905 topographic map:WASkykomish1905,05Snapf.jpg

The second, present, Cascade Tunnel was added as no topo map could be found showing all three routes. Read that crews were fascinated when going though the loop tunnel above Martin Creek (on the left) because when their locomotive came out of the tunnel they could see the aft part of their train going into the tunnel.

Me three! :lol: I once had a college calculus professor who was a insufferable, arrogant, south end of a northbound horse.

He also happened to be a railroad buff and on one occasion spent part of his lecture explaining how the switchbacks over the original route worked, and about helper engines, and about the challenges of railroading in the Cascades in general. It had nothing to do with calculus of course but was a welcome diversion to his otherwise less than scintillating lectures. Aside from my fascination about railroads in general, I suppose the history of the Stevens Pass route (s) for me is especially intriguing since I am a lifelong resident of the state of Washington. One day trip that is on my bucket list is a drive to the Iron Horse State Park which in large part consists of a trail that follows the old right-of-way of the GN that went through the original, shorter tunnel. It has interpretive signs along the way describing the route and pointing out historical points. One can still see various bits of debris that is still there from the Wellington disaster.

 

[SarahZ]

If you enjoy camping (tent or backpacking) you will do just fine in coach, if do not or you need an RV to camp then strongly consider a sleeper. Pillows, stuff bags to improvise by filling with clothes, ear plugs, a light blanket are all good ideas.

No offense, but to compare Amtrak coach seating to tent camping and backpacking is ridiculous. I've camped and backpacked all my life (used to work as an Outward Bound instructor), and sleeping warm and fully reclined in a peaceful, pristine wilderness setting does not compare to "sleeping" in a smelly, night noise filled, coach car.

Ditto. I get much better sleep camping than I do in coach or even a roomette/bedroom. The ground doesn't rock and lurch, the only noise comes from nature, and I get to enjoy fresh air the entire time. Give me camping any day.

 

[neroden]

I've had a good overnight in coach -- in an Amfleet II with everyone being very quiet -- and a bad overnight in coach, in an Amfleet I with people yakking on their cellphones. (I would not tolerate that if it happened again; I'd demand to move to a different car.)

I can handle an overnight in coach. But if I want to be *sure* that I get a good night's sleep, I get a sleeper. Accordingly, I would not advise *multiple consecutive nights* in coach, because if you have bad luck, you will end up completely sleep-deprived by day three.

I HATE camping. I was forced to camp several times as a child. I have never successfully gotten one second of sleep while camping. Not once. Never camping EVER EVER AGAIN. Camping is absolute hell. I presume that people who like camping must simply not be bothered by biting insects, crawling insects, flying buzzing insects, dampness, chill winds, etc. etc. Give me a railroad coach any day over THAT hell. (Thankfully nobody ever forced me to camp two nights in a row. After the first night of no sleep they always relented and allowed me to head for an actual house or hotel.)

As the saying goes -- I am not a happy camper. ;-)

 

[kelemvor]

For variety we considered taking a more southern route home. However, is there a way around paying for each portion separately? For instance, doing Seattle to Milwaukee via the Coast Starlight to California Zephyr route?

 

[Eric308]

I've had a good overnight in coach -- in an Amfleet II with everyone being very quiet -- and a bad overnight in coach, in an Amfleet I with people yakking on their cellphones. (I would not tolerate that if it happened again; I'd demand to move to a different car.)

I can handle an overnight in coach. But if I want to be *sure* that I get a good night's sleep, I get a sleeper. Accordingly, I would not advise *multiple consecutive nights* in coach, because if you have bad luck, you will end up completely sleep-deprived by day three.

I HATE camping. I was forced to camp several times as a child. I have never successfully gotten one second of sleep while camping. Not once. Never camping EVER EVER AGAIN. Camping is absolute hell. I presume that people who like camping must simply not be bothered by biting insects, crawling insects, flying buzzing insects, dampness, chill winds, etc. etc. Give me a railroad coach any day over THAT hell. (Thankfully nobody ever forced me to camp two nights in a row. After the first night of no sleep they always relented and allowed me to head for an actual house or hotel.)

As the saying goes -- I am not a happy camper. ;-)

Hey, it's all about gear, equipment, and attitude. I camped out 240 days a year for five years back in the late 70's when I worked for Outward Bound.

 

[Eric308]

For variety we considered taking a more southern route home. However, is there a way around paying for each portion separately? For instance, doing Seattle to Milwaukee via the Coast Starlight to California Zephyr route?

Sure...just use "mult-cities" on the Amtrak site when you get your tickets. You'd be going from MKE to SEA to EMY to CHI to MKE.

 

[Cina]

You could also connect from the Coast Starlight to the California Zephyr at Martinez, Davis, or Sacramento if you'd rather get a hotel in one of those towns instead of Emeryville.

 

[oregon pioneer]

You could also connect from the Coast Starlight to the California Zephyr at Martinez, Davis, or Sacramento if you'd rather get a hotel in one of those towns instead of Emeryville.

If you are coming from Seattle, no overnight stay is necessary. You arrive at Sac'to in the morning on the CS, and leave midday on the CZ.

 

[MnMotherMary]

Lot's of good advice about checking amsnag & using points to get a sleeper. You just don't get a good night's sleep in coach with all the people noises etc. So, if you can figure out a way to do that, it's the best, all meals are included. Don't forget, your vacation starts the minute you step on the train.

We took coach(we were buying) with our 3 adult (21-24) children from MPLS/St.Paul to Seattle about 7 years ago & then flew back. We boarded in the evening & then went to sleep. I brought a cooler along for breakfast, lunch & drinks. We ate supper in the diner & then more snacks for breakfast the next day since you arrive in Seattle & then we immediately go to Pike's Place to get some food. Our other daughter lived out there & when it's just my husband & I we always get a roomette.

Seattle-- Take a ferry ride to any one of the islands for the day. It's about $2.00 to ride & free to return when you walk on. Great military museum.

 

[Eric308]

Good advice

Lot's of good advice about checking amsnag & using points to get a sleeper. You just don't get a good night's sleep in coach with all the people noises etc. So, if you can figure out a way to do that, it's the best, all meals are included. Don't forget, your vacation starts the minute you step on the train.

We took coach(we were buying) with our 3 adult (21-24) children from MPLS/St.Paul to Seattle about 7 years ago & then flew back. We boarded in the evening & then went to sleep. I brought a cooler along for breakfast, lunch & drinks. We ate supper in the diner & then more snacks for breakfast the next day since you arrive in Seattle & then we immediately go to Pike's Place to get some food. Our other daughter lived out there & when it's just my husband & I we always get a roomette.

Seattle-- Take a ferry ride to any one of the islands for the day. It's about $2.00 to ride & free to return when you walk on. Great military museum.

Good advice here, MnMotherMary. For me it's always the journey and not the destination. I think you missed a day on the way to Seattle...it's actually about 35 hours and two nights on the train. I'd almost be willing to chip in and help get those folks some sleeping accommodations. Your first LD Amtrak trip should be nothing but pleasant memories. Oh well, who am I to judge? I hope it turns out to be a fantastic trip for them and they will be back for more.

 

[tomfuller]

The last long distance trek I took with my wife on the Empire Builder was in coach. We slept a little in the SPK station before we got on the EB all the way to Chicago.

We spent several hours in Chicago and then took the LSL overnight to Cleveland. That was 3 consecutive nights in coach. I don't plan on doing that ever again.

We had an expensive taxi ride out to the Cleveland airport to rent a car for 10 days on the east coast. We returned the car to the airport and got a slightly cheaper

ride back to the CLE station which opened at 10PM ET. We slept in the station all night until our train came (late) 5:30AM.

We had a few hours in Chicago for lunch and sightseeing before we got on the westbound EB.

We got off in Cut Bank MT where we had a rental car waiting for us. We had a good meal in Cut Bank and went to the motel. We left after breakfast and went to St. Mary

and a few miles up the east end of the Going to The Sun Road in Glacier NP. We got the car back to Cut Bank and caught the next EB back to Spokane.

We were back in Bend Oregon in time for lunch.

There are several ways to earn AGR points without travel. I have been making some online purchases going through the AGR website.

My tip is to put a light blanket inside a pillowcase to use in coach. If it is cool enough to use the blanket over you, put your coat into the pillowcase to rest your head on.

The connection point for the southbound CS to the eastbound CZ is in Sacramento with plenty of time to get a good breakfast. Sometimes the CS is as early as 5:20AM.

I like the new ticket counter at Sacramento where you can drop a checked bag at the counter instead of taking it to the old baggage window.

 

[oregon pioneer]

To the OP (Original Poster):

There are a lot of people on this forum that think that if you can't go in a sleeper, it's not worth going on a long distance train at all. I am now one of them -- but hey, I am also now within shouting distance of 65 years old! My first long distance train trip was twenty years ago, when I was in my mid-forties. Hubby and I went coach from Pasco to Boston. We went two days and nights, then spent a night in Chicago with the aunt and uncle, then one more to Boston. On the way back, we went two days, then spent a night at the Isaac Walton Inn in Montana, then one more back to Pasco. I packed tote bags full of food (there is water on the train, but I always make sure of a good supply by bringing bottles like I use for hiking). We slept OK, not great. We had an absolutely wonderful time on the train.

I am still willing to travel coach on a long day trip. Due to budget constraints, and lack of enough points, last November I got up at 4am and moved out of my comfy roomette (it was re-booked from the same station stop, or they probably would have let me sleep), and moved into coach on the Cardinal. Yes, I brought my own food for that day (tuna and crackers, dried fruit, nuts, chocolate etc). Depending on the level of gluten-free that you need, eating once in the dining car is another wonderful experience. If you just need to "avoid" gluten, that person can undoubtedly eat a steak and baked potato (request that any sauce be left off, or served on the side). If it's celiac disease, take no chances and bring all your own food.

Don't let anyone discourage you just because a sleeper is not in your budget! If you can't afford it, you can't, but the train trip itself is an experience not to be missed. Make sure you spend plenty of time in the Sightseer Lounge car. And we'd love it if you report back to us on how it went. Have a wonderful trip!

 

[kelemvor]

I took a quick look at the AmSnag site and it looks like I just put in the From, To, and Date information and see what I get? It doesn't seem to allow for specifying kids or anything like that, is that right?

When I just use Amtrak's own site, it loosk like our family would be $420 (Saver), $472 (Value), $1028 (flexible), and $1718.50 (2 Romettes). That's way more than flying so the Roomette is definitely out. And since 3 of the 4 of us wouldn't be able to each anything from the train, the included meals are pretty much useless.

The Saver option breaks down as $140 for each Adult and $70 for each kid so I'm assuming that kids are jsut 50% off the adult cost regardless of which we end up going with.

 

[ehbowen]

I have taken many one-night overnight trips in coach, and I would be willing to do so again were budget an overriding factor. So far, however, all of my two-night trips have been in sleeper accommodations.

I would encourage the original poster to make the trip, even if in coach. I will just say, by way of observation, that after many of my coach trips I have wished afterwards that I could have spent the extra money and taken the sleeper. There has never yet been a sleeper trip which I looked back on afterwards and wished that I had saved the money and traveled coach.

One point that I do not remember anyone bringing up specifically: Amtrak sleeper upgrades are priced per room, not per person. You can squeeze at least two people into even the smallest accommodations for two nights, and a full bedroom can accommodate three if two of them are very young or very friendly and can share a bed a little larger than a twin. A family bedroom can hold two kids under five feet tall and two adults...three adults if, again, two of them can share a twin+ sized bed.

 

[Eric308]

I have taken many one-night overnight trips in coach, and I would be willing to do so again were budget an overriding factor. So far, however, all of my two-night trips have been in sleeper accommodations.

I would encourage the original poster to make the trip, even if in coach. I will just say, by way of observation, that after many of my coach trips I have wished afterwards that I could have spent the extra money and taken the sleeper. There has never yet been a sleeper trip which I looked back on afterwards and wished that I had saved the money and traveled coach.

One point that I do not remember anyone bringing up specifically: Amtrak sleeper upgrades are priced per room, not per person. You can squeeze at least two people into even the smallest accommodations for two nights, and a full bedroom can accommodate three if two of them are very young or very friendly and can share a bed a little larger than a twin. A family bedroom can hold two kids under five feet tall and two adults...three adults if, again, two of them can share a twin+ sized bed.

Very good points, and I agree. Maybe someone really well versed in figuring fares could break down all the sleeper upgrades to see if they are figuring correctly...maybe niemi24s or somebody? I've only taken one trip in coach for 2 nights, and that was my last one. Nothing worse than to wake up with some old guy's drool on your shoulder.