California's new car deployment plan

[rickycourtney]

Personally I think it's ridiculous that the 8th round-trip was added to the San Joaquin route over 12 years ago and despite explosive growth Caltrans and Amtrak haven't figured out a way to add a 9th round-trip or the much requested short turn trains (Merced-Bakersfield/Merced-Oakland). Meanwhile in the last 12 years the Capitol Corridor has grown from 9 weekday round-trips to 15. That's the power of having a JPA advocating for a route.

Well part of the problem is that there's only 6 daily round trips Capital investment for a 7th (Oakland-Bakersfield) should be completed next year and they're working to get the $112 million in funds for an 8th round trip and mid-corridor starts/ends with planning underway for 11 daily round trips. Given how cheap that appears to be (less than $200 million for three extra round trips), I'd be surprised if they didn't manage to get it.

Sorry... that's what I get for posting after midnight :blink: the numbers got mixed up in my head.

As I understand it, the biggest thing preventing the 7th round-trip from being put into service is the lack of equipment (obviously this new equipment will help.) It's also worth noting that the SJJPA is pushing hard to have this "7th round-trip" actually be short turn trains instead of just another Oakland-Bakersfield run. I think it's a great idea but I'm not sure if BNSF will be on board and I'm not sure how much work it will take to be able to store trainsets in BNSF's small yard in Merced.

But the perception in the central valley is that in the past decade the Capitol Corridor got 6 additional round-trips and the San Joaquin got nothing. Fairly or unfairly most of the fingers seem to be pointed at Caltrans for this lack of expansion... and there is enough frustration that the local governments are working to form a JPA and take the management responsibilities for the San Joaquin away from the state.

 

[neroden]

Yes, there are 7 wreck-repaired Superliner coaches but only 3 operate on the Pacific Surfliner, the other 4 are in the Northern California pool and mostly operate on the San Joaquin.

Yes, there is 1 single-level trainset on the Pacific Surfliner (usually runs on the San Luis Obispo-San Diego train)

While the Surfliner trainsets were intended to be 6 cars long (cab/baggage/coach, 3x coaches, cafe/coach, business class) many trainsets are now 7 cars long with an extra Superliner coach for extra capacity.

Thanks. But now I'm even more confused.

So Los Angeles has 3 Superliners and 1 single-level trainset. Replacing this requires 1 cab/bag, 1 cafe, 5 coaches (for the trainset) and 3 more coaches (for the Superliners), for a total of 10. But Los Angeles is supposed to get 14 coaches, 2 cafes, and 2 cab-bags for "replacing Amtrak equipment".

What exactly are the extra 6 coaches, 1 cafe, and 1 cab-bag "replacing" at LA? An entire Amtrak-owned trainset? If so, what happens to that Surfliner consist -- does it head to Chicago or something?

(Edited)

 

[Paulus]

Whatever Amtrak wants to do with it. My suspicion is that it will be used either for additional frequencies on the Surfliner or for the Coachella Valley service that the state wants to do.

 

[rickycourtney]

Yes, there are 7 wreck-repaired Superliner coaches but only 3 operate on the Pacific Surfliner, the other 4 are in the Northern California pool and mostly operate on the San Joaquin.

Yes, there is 1 single-level trainset on the Pacific Surfliner (usually runs on the San Luis Obispo-San Diego train)

While the Surfliner trainsets were intended to be 6 cars long (cab/baggage/coach, 3x coaches, cafe/coach, business class) many trainsets are now 7 cars long with an extra Superliner coach for extra capacity.

Thanks. But now I'm even more confused.
So Los Angeles has 3 Superliners and 1 single-level trainset. Replacing this requires 1 cab/bag, 1 cafe, 5 coaches (for the trainset) and 3 more coaches (for the Superliners), for a total of 10. But Los Angeles is supposed to get 14 coaches, 2 cafes, and 2 cab-bags for "replacing Amtrak equipment".

What exactly are the extra 6 coaches, 1 cafe, and 1 cab-bag "replacing" at LA? An entire Amtrak-owned trainset? If so, what happens to that Surfliner consist -- does it head to Chicago or something?

(Edited)

I think you need to change your thinking on this.The Surfliner trainsets that Amtrak purchased aren't going anywhere (I'm not even sure if Amtrak owns them anymore). No matter what the ownership situation is... the costs for these trainsets are included in the price California pays to Amtrak for the operation of the Pacific Surfliner.

The "Amtrak owned" equipment that will be replaced are the single level trainset on the Pacific Surfliner and the Superliners used to add capacity to the trainsets. This equipment is likely leased on a month-to-month or on a yearly basis.

I think the extra equipment will likely be used to add another run to the Pacific Surfliner... but unlike the San Joaquin I haven't seen any documentation to support that.

 

[neroden]

The "Amtrak owned" equipment that will be replaced are the single level trainset on the Pacific Surfliner and the Superliners used to add capacity to the trainsets. This equipment is likely leased on a month-to-month or on a yearly basis.

This simply does not add up to anywhere near 24 cars.
The claim in the document is that 24 cars are "replacing Amtrak-owned equipment".

That's what's confusing the heck out of me.

 

[rickycourtney]

24 cars total:

* 18 cars based out of Los Angeles (3 wreck repaired Superliner coaches, 1 single level trainset which should be equivalent to 6 or 7 cars, plus the Superliner coaches from the long distance fleet used to expand capacity)

* 6 cars based out Oakland (the 4 wreck repaired Superliner coaches and 2 Superliner snack coaches)

 

[X]

A few years ago there were enough single level cars in LA to make 3 full trainsets, I believe it's down to enough for 2 now.

 

[neroden]

24 cars total:

* 18 cars based out of Los Angeles (3 wreck repaired Superliner coaches, 1 single level trainset which should be equivalent to 6 or 7 cars, plus the Superliner coaches from the long distance fleet used to expand capacity)

* 6 cars based out Oakland (the 4 wreck repaired Superliner coaches and 2 Superliner snack coaches)

OK, so there are NINE Superliner coaches in LA loaned to the Pacific Surfliner in addition to the wreck repairs? I really don't think this is the case.

A few years ago there were enough single level cars in LA to make 3 full trainsets, I believe it's down to enough for 2 now.

OK, this makes a lot more sense to me. You'd have to have spares for the single-levels, the Surfliner used to run nothing but single-levels, having 2 full trainsets there would make sense. So if this is right, some of the replacements are replacing the "spare" single-level trainset.

 

[afigg]

OK, this makes a lot more sense to me. You'd have to have spares for the single-levels, the Surfliner used to run nothing but single-levels, having 2 full trainsets there would make sense. So if this is right, some of the replacements are replacing the "spare" single-level trainset.

Don't know why you are so focused on where are the 24 Amtrak rented units. Checking Youtube for videos of the single level Surfliner, more recent ones show the train with 7 single level cars, a mix of Amfleets and Horizons. Figure with spares, there could be 10 or 11 single level cars in SoCal. Add the 7 + 2 Superliners, a couple of Superliner spares, throw in several cab car units and one can get to 24.
The point is that those 24 units will be freed up for deployment on the LD system and in the east in stages by mid 2018.

 

[neroden]

Don't know why you are so focused on where are the 24 Amtrak rented units.

Because whether they are Superliners or Horizons/Amfleets determines which cars are freed up for the rest of the system, and which part of the system gets more cars. And there appear to be at least 7 of unknown type.
Also, I tend to be detail-oriented in general and things which don't add up bug me.

 

[Anderson]

Don't know why you are so focused on where are the 24 Amtrak rented units.

Because whether they are Superliners or Horizons/Amfleets determines which cars are freed up for the rest of the system, and which part of the system gets more cars. And there appear to be at least 7 of unknown type.
Also, I tend to be detail-oriented in general and things which don't add up bug me.

To put it another way, if they are Amfleets they can be put on the NEC with no problem. If they're Horizons, they can be put elsewhere in the east/northeast (such as on the Adirondack, which very badly needs additional capacity...there's a frequent capacity clog between Albany and Schenectady...or possibly on one of the LD trains). If they're Superliners, they can only go elsewhere outside the NEC.

 

[edjbox]

Horizons should be on either the Adirondack, Empire Service, Ethan Allen Express, Maple Leaf, Springfield Shuttle or the Downeaster (with the Amfleets coming back to the rest of the NEC)

 

[George Harris]

Adding trains to the Capital Corridor is relatively easy. The route is entirely double track and near dead flat, other than approaches to the Carquinez (sp?) Strait bridge. Therefore, slotting in additional trains is relatively easy.

The San Joaquin route is mostly single track, although there have been several additional segments of double track added in order to permit the 6 daily trains. This is a very busy freight route as well. It is more than just equipment. There needs to be track added in order to add trains without adding significant delays to all trains.

 

[neroden]

Horizons should be on either the Adirondack, Empire Service, Ethan Allen Express, Maple Leaf, Springfield Shuttle or the Downeaster (with the Amfleets coming back to the rest of the NEC)

Amtrak specifically wants to get the Horizons out of constant service in the snow belt, due to problems with cold weather performance -- or at least this is what Amtrak has said in some of its reports. So this is the wrong list of places to send Horizons.
Think instead, Crescent, Silver Service, Palmetto. I'm sure the Horizons will need reconfiguration for such service, but they're due for a midlife overhaul anyway. Anyway, from an artistic point of view, I think Horizons look better coupled to Viewliners than Amfleets do, don't you? ^_^

 

[rickycourtney]

Just to clarify, with these new cars the plan is to stop using the single level trainsets on any California route and return all leased Superliner cars (including the wreck repaired cars.) As I understand it, California will keep the Comet car single level trainsets for use as a surge fleet or to start a new route (Coast Daylight or LA-Coachella Valley).

The I think the horizons could look good with the Viewliners except that they are painted aluminum not the shiny stainless steel used on the rest of Amtrak's cars.

 

[X996]

Off topic,

Why did the NGEC choose a french TGV for its logo ??

 

[Green Maned Lion]

They are trying to bring Amtraks equipment into the 70s?

 

[rickycourtney]

They are trying to bring Amtraks equipment into the 70s?

Ha!

 

[Paulus]

Off topic,

Why did the NGEC choose a french TGV for its logo ??

Stereotypical HSR train.

 

[Tuffster]

I am curious as to why there are no new Business Class cars on the list. Currently, The Pacific Surfliner has 10 Business Class cars and the Lossan Corridor's Pacific Surfliner South Corridor Service Development Plan identifies that there will be 12 daily round trips starting in 2020. Are there plans to run some trains without a Business Car in the future or will they convert some of the soon to arrive Coach Cars to Business Class?

 

[CCC1007]

I am curious as to why there are no new Business Class cars on the list. Currently, The Pacific Surfliner has 10 Business Class cars and the Lossan Corridor's Pacific Surfliner South Corridor Service Development Plan identifies that there will be 12 daily round trips starting in 2020. Are there plans to run some trains without a Business Car in the future or will they convert some of the soon to arrive Coach Cars to Business Class?

the trains tend to make multiple trips per day.

 

[pebbleworm]

I'd cheerfully pay more for Business Class on the San Joaquin, but that would require some business class cars. Drat.

 

[Tuffster]

I am curious as to why there are no new Business Class cars on the list. Currently, The Pacific Surfliner has 10 Business Class cars and the Lossan Corridor's Pacific Surfliner South Corridor Service Development Plan identifies that there will be 12 daily round trips starting in 2020. Are there plans to run some trains without a Business Car in the future or will they convert some of the soon to arrive Coach Cars to Business Class?

the trains tend to make multiple trips per day.

How many trains are required for 12 daily round trips?

 

[Anderson]

Serious question: How is a "business class" car different from a "coach" car on a Surfliner, beyond moving seats around (if that) and a dab of paint on the side?

 

[Paulus]

Serious question: How is a "business class" car different from a "coach" car on a Surfliner, beyond moving seats around (if that) and a dab of paint on the side?

As I recall more legroom, free muffins and drink, and guaranteed seating (which is probably the major draw).