Cars to be rebuilt

[AlanB]

Maybe its me, but the bedrooms not only have every possible rattle known to trains and at way higher volumes and lower bench seats that are too short for many to nap on without bending your neck way out of shape. The doors are missing most of the original latches and have hardware store replacements leaving holes in the doors. (high quality). And for another I very much disliked the disconnected look to the roof lines of the rooms. Its like being in a room with openings going off in several directions, just not a bit cozy like pullman or superliner bedrooms. The roomettes one saving grace that some seem not to like is having its own toilet. But again in the old days they were much better at blending them in out of the way than the new one is. I think the word for it might be "Cheap", except the fare. Oh yes as long a were on the viewliner trains, the diner is pitiful and the lounge is nearly nonexistent. I would take the Cardinal any day for quality of equipment and view. The equipment may be getting old and has its own flaws but in all my many sleeper trips the viewliner won out as worst by a long shot.

I've been in plenty of Superliner's that rattled every bit as much as the Viewliner's do. As for the bench seat, it's 3 inches shorter than a Superliner's, but that's some designer's fault, not the car's fault. Regarding the latches and locks, while I'll admit that I'm upset that Amtrak replaced the originals instead of fixing them, the new locks are identical to the Superliner locks.

As for Viewliner trains, they don't exist at least yet. It's not the fault of the Viewliner sleeper car's that Amtrak didn't buy Viewliner lounges, coaches, and diners. And the Cardinal uses single level equipment and a Viewliner sleeper, so I'm very confused by your statement that you'd take that any day for the quality of equipment.

 

[Larry H.]

Fares were figured on a much different scale in those long past days as you would refer to them. We have also been though that. Yes they may in real terms be the same but the ratio charged for the rooms is not by about 18 times!

Bull.

All you need is an inflation adjustment index for any given year and an old PRR time table. Trust me, did it myself. Our rooms are about the same on many routes, cheaper on some as well... and if I recall y'all didn't get your food included back then.

Call it what you want. I distinctly recall that the fare for a room New York to Chicago was one half the coach fare. Now the same ratio is up to 18 times higher in comparison. That is a fact.

 

[Larry H.]

Maybe its me, but the bedrooms not only have every possible rattle known to trains and at way higher volumes and lower bench seats that are too short for many to nap on without bending your neck way out of shape. The doors are missing most of the original latches and have hardware store replacements leaving holes in the doors. (high quality). And for another I very much disliked the disconnected look to the roof lines of the rooms. Its like being in a room with openings going off in several directions, just not a bit cozy like pullman or superliner bedrooms. The roomettes one saving grace that some seem not to like is having its own toilet. But again in the old days they were much better at blending them in out of the way than the new one is. I think the word for it might be "Cheap", except the fare. Oh yes as long a were on the viewliner trains, the diner is pitiful and the lounge is nearly nonexistent. I would take the Cardinal any day for quality of equipment and view. The equipment may be getting old and has its own flaws but in all my many sleeper trips the viewliner won out as worst by a long shot.

I've been in plenty of Superliner's that rattled every bit as much as the Viewliner's do. As for the bench seat, it's 3 inches shorter than a Superliner's, but that's some designer's fault, not the car's fault. Regarding the latches and locks, while I'll admit that I'm upset that Amtrak replaced the originals instead of fixing them, the new locks are identical to the Superliner locks.

As for Viewliner trains, they don't exist at least yet. It's not the fault of the Viewliner sleeper car's that Amtrak didn't buy Viewliner lounges, coaches, and diners. And the Cardinal uses single level equipment and a Viewliner sleeper, so I'm very confused by your statement that you'd take that any day for the quality of equipment.

Alan,

Some days I am even surprised by your responses. The question at one point was wether the Cardinal and Superliner equipment was a better choice than the LS with abbreviated view liner equipment. The comments on the diner and lounge are for the LS in general. If the issues with the cars are real such as in the length of the seat, then it is a flaw in the car to me. Its running and the designer is at home somewhere.

I stand by my comments on the noise of the room.. I have ridden twice in two years to the coast by superliner and then to New York. That viewliner bedroom was by far the worst. Yes they all rattle, but that was unbearable much of the ride.

 

[AlanB]

Maybe its me, but the bedrooms not only have every possible rattle known to trains and at way higher volumes and lower bench seats that are too short for many to nap on without bending your neck way out of shape. The doors are missing most of the original latches and have hardware store replacements leaving holes in the doors. (high quality). And for another I very much disliked the disconnected look to the roof lines of the rooms. Its like being in a room with openings going off in several directions, just not a bit cozy like pullman or superliner bedrooms. The roomettes one saving grace that some seem not to like is having its own toilet. But again in the old days they were much better at blending them in out of the way than the new one is. I think the word for it might be "Cheap", except the fare. Oh yes as long a were on the viewliner trains, the diner is pitiful and the lounge is nearly nonexistent. I would take the Cardinal any day for quality of equipment and view. The equipment may be getting old and has its own flaws but in all my many sleeper trips the viewliner won out as worst by a long shot.

I've been in plenty of Superliner's that rattled every bit as much as the Viewliner's do. As for the bench seat, it's 3 inches shorter than a Superliner's, but that's some designer's fault, not the car's fault. Regarding the latches and locks, while I'll admit that I'm upset that Amtrak replaced the originals instead of fixing them, the new locks are identical to the Superliner locks.

As for Viewliner trains, they don't exist at least yet. It's not the fault of the Viewliner sleeper car's that Amtrak didn't buy Viewliner lounges, coaches, and diners. And the Cardinal uses single level equipment and a Viewliner sleeper, so I'm very confused by your statement that you'd take that any day for the quality of equipment.

Alan,

Some days I am even surprised by your responses. The question at one point was wether the Cardinal and Superliner equipment was a better choice than the LS with abbreviated view liner equipment. The comments on the diner and lounge are for the LS in general. If the issues with the cars are real such as in the length of the seat, then it is a flaw in the car to me. Its running and the designer is at home somewhere.

I stand by my comments on the noise of the room.. I have ridden twice in two years to the coast by superliner and then to New York. That viewliner bedroom was by far the worst. Yes they all rattle, but that was unbearable much of the ride.

Larry,

I must be missing something here, as there was no mention of the Cardinal on the first page of this topic at all. The only mention of the Cardinal came on the second page when you stated "I would take the Cardinal any day for quality of equipment and view. " You made that statement after bashing the Viewliner sleeping car, yet now you are contradicting yourself by saying that you'd ride the Cardinal because of its superior quality, even though it uses Viewliner sleeping cars.

So I'm confused, is the Viewliner superior or inferior? You can't have it both ways. And I'm not sure what "abbreviated view liner equipment means."

And not to make this a competition, but I took 4 trips last year in a Viewliner and 6 trips in a Superliner sleeper. The best Superliner bedroom that I had was on the AT, where everything is maintained at a higher level than the rest of Amtrak. The worst bedroom that I had was on a Superliner to Chicago. Everything else fell in the middle, including the Viewliner sleepers.

 

[jis]

I think I am about to get crucified here, but what the heck! After having traveled thousands of miles by both Superliners and Viewliners, I think the basic design of the Viewliner Roomette is better than that of the Superliner Roomette. I think the workmanship of the Viewliner is somewhat inferior to that of the Superliner, but I don't see any evidence that it is a basic car design issue.

Now then, what does all this have to do with which cars are going to get fixed beats me. But that's OK too.

 

[amtrakwolverine]

i say rebuild the superliners sense 99% of them don't have outlets and each seat.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

i say rebuild the superliners sense 99% of them don't have outlets and each seat.

I think Amtrak has more pressing concerns right now-- and 99% is quite wrong, I have seen plenty with all seats.

Get me some baggage cars, some proper single-level diners, and then some new single-level sleepers. THEN get me refurbed Superliner coaches.

 

[Larry H.]

Alan,

Your right again, I just realized that the question of the viewliner or superliner equipment and which route was better is in another thread.

I also meant to say Capitol Limited instead of Cardinal. I must be getting too old for these arguments it seems. The comment about the abbreviated LS was also meant to refer to the combination of types of cars since you had questioned the fact I complained about the diner and lounge which are what? Amfleet cars? I was trying to indicate that the train ran with an a mixed amount of car types and that the overall effect was not in my opinion good.

I refuse to move on my experience with the noise and quality of the Viewliner bedroom. Its my worst experience. If others have a better one thats great and I am happy for them. The worst for some reason of the Superliner bedrooms has been usually on the City of New Orleans for some reason for me. It seemed to be almost always more noisy than the Chicago West Coast routes I have ridden.

I now quit trying to make my points, its pretty hard to argue personal choices.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

From my experience trackage has more to do with rattling than Superliner versus Viewliner or AFII. I can't speak for Heritage or Horizon because I've never been, however-- I standby that we should all blame CSX for our discomfort! LoL.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

i say rebuild the superliners sense 99% of them don't have outlets and each seat.

I think Amtrak has more pressing concerns right now-- and 99% is quite wrong, I have seen plenty with all seats.

Get me some baggage cars, some proper single-level diners, and then some new single-level sleepers. THEN get me refurbed Superliner coaches.

In other words, once Amtrak finishes wreck repairs and overhauling the mothballed Amfleet coaches, you want Amtrak to lay off some of the Bear and Beach Grove workers while they wait for an outside vendor to deliver some new rolling stock before Amtrak's maintenance people should be allowed to add outlets to Amtrak's existing equipment?

 

[AlanB]

I also meant to say Capitol Limited instead of Cardinal. I must be getting too old for these arguments it seems. The comment about the abbreviated LS was also meant to refer to the combination of types of cars since you had questioned the fact I complained about the diner and lounge which are what? Amfleet cars? I was trying to indicate that the train ran with an a mixed amount of car types and that the overall effect was not in my opinion good.

Ok, that makes sense. But you definately had me scratching my head there for a few minutes. I even went back and reread things a few times just to make sure that I hadn't missed something.

And yes, the diner and coaches are currently Amfleet cars on the LSL. The cafe car sometimes is an Amfleet II, sometimes a Horizon cafe car. And I would agree, I would love to see a uniform train on the LSL, as well as the other single level trains.

I refuse to move on my experience with the noise and quality of the Viewliner bedroom. Its my worst experience. If others have a better one thats great and I am happy for them. The worst for some reason of the Superliner bedrooms has been usually on the City of New Orleans for some reason for me. It seemed to be almost always more noisy than the Chicago West Coast routes I have ridden.
I now quit trying to make my points, its pretty hard to argue personal choices.

And you are certainly entitled to your opinion, I would never want to deny you that. I just think that a lot comes down to luck of the draw, especially when it comes to rattles in the car.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

i say rebuild the superliners sense 99% of them don't have outlets and each seat.

I think Amtrak has more pressing concerns right now-- and 99% is quite wrong, I have seen plenty with all seats.

Get me some baggage cars, some proper single-level diners, and then some new single-level sleepers. THEN get me refurbed Superliner coaches.

In other words, once Amtrak finishes wreck repairs and overhauling the mothballed Amfleet coaches, you want Amtrak to lay off some of the Bear and Beach Grove workers while they wait for an outside vendor to deliver some new rolling stock before Amtrak's maintenance people should be allowed to add outlets to Amtrak's existing equipment?

Its called money.

And if Amtrak's got the cash to do it-- then sure, go ahead. Until then I don't plan on seeing another dime out of the Feds for a LONG time and I would much rather have a baggage car that won't tear apart at the trucks then the engineer opens the throttle than a bunch of flipping 110 volt outlets on perfectly good coach cars.

 

[Green Maned Lion]

Call it what you want. I distinctly recall that the fare for a room New York to Chicago was one half the coach fare. Now the same ratio is up to 18 times higher in comparison. That is a fact.

I've gone around and around with you on this a dozen times. Let me say it again, Larry.

Sleepers have NOT gotten more expensive. They have gotten CHEAPER in most instances.

The coach seats have gotten CHEAPER. A LOT cheaper. In 1971 it cost $176 to go from New York to LA on Amtrak. In 2008 it costs $184. Meanwhile, a Mercedes 300SEL 6.3 at that point blew people away for costing $15k. Nowadays, its equivalent, the S65 AMG, costs $195k. Point made? I think so.

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

Its called money.
And if Amtrak's got the cash to do it-- then sure, go ahead. Until then I don't plan on seeing another dime out of the Feds for a LONG time and I would much rather have a baggage car that won't tear apart at the trucks then the engineer opens the throttle than a bunch of flipping 110 volt outlets on perfectly good coach cars.

I can't imagine adding outlets at every seat could cost more than $10,000-$100,000 per coach car. It could very well be the case that adding outlets at every seat to 100 coach cars costs less than buying one new baggage car, even.

(I am curious whether adding the outlets is just a matter of adding breakers to an existing panel and running wires from those breakers to the new outlets, or if there's a need to add another breaker panel and/or upgrade the size of the 480V-208V transformer. Actually, for that matter, I'm not even sure whether the output of those transformers is three phase 208V.)

 

[Ryan]

I refuse to move on my experience with the noise and quality of the Viewliner bedroom. Its my worst experience. If others have a better one thats great and I am happy for them. The worst for some reason of the Superliner bedrooms has been usually on the City of New Orleans for some reason for me. It seemed to be almost always more noisy than the Chicago West Coast routes I have ridden.
I now quit trying to make my points, its pretty hard to argue personal choices.

The problem is that you're trying to make your personal single data point and extrapolate that out to a generalization that fails completely.

Anecdotes != Data

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

I refuse to move on my experience with the noise and quality of the Viewliner bedroom. Its my worst experience. If others have a better one thats great and I am happy for them. The worst for some reason of the Superliner bedrooms has been usually on the City of New Orleans for some reason for me. It seemed to be almost always more noisy than the Chicago West Coast routes I have ridden.
I now quit trying to make my points, its pretty hard to argue personal choices.

The problem is that you're trying to make your personal single data point and extrapolate that out to a generalization that fails completely.

Anecdotes != Data

I believe you mean:

Anecdotes ≠ Data !

 

[Joel N. Weber II]

I refuse to move on my experience with the noise and quality of the Viewliner bedroom. Its my worst experience. If others have a better one thats great and I am happy for them. The worst for some reason of the Superliner bedrooms has been usually on the City of New Orleans for some reason for me. It seemed to be almost always more noisy than the Chicago West Coast routes I have ridden.
I now quit trying to make my points, its pretty hard to argue personal choices.

The problem is that you're trying to make your personal single data point and extrapolate that out to a generalization that fails completely.

Anecdotes != Data

I believe you mean:

Anecdotes ≠ Data !

What's wrong with the notation the C programming language uses?

 

[Steve4031]

I like the general layout/design of viewliner sleepers. I especially like the two levels of windows which would create a nice open feeling in the dining car. If they made viewliner coaches, the bottom row of windows should be the same size as in the sleepers which affords anyone sitting in the seat a chance to look out. A second row of windows would not be necessary in coach in light of the need for luggage racks.

As far as operating reliability, I don't know too much about the stats. I think if they took steps to correct issues in this area, the cars would be fine. There was an issue on my January trip on the LSL where the toilets were frozen for part of the day. Later in the day they were functional. When I did a test flushall of though, I did not see the liquid coming. So I used one of the working toilets in coach. I think durability during cold weather is a major issue with Amtrak's single level equipment, and this issue will need to be addressed no matter what types of cars are ordered.

The other big issue with any Amtrak seats in coach class is the comfortableness of the seats. The current seats do not get it done. I think the best seats came from the old budd cars, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to create a more modern version of that.

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

The other big issue with any Amtrak seats in coach class is the comfortableness of the seats. The current seats do not get it done. I think the best seats came from the old budd cars, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to create a more modern version of that.

Comfort is a matter of perception. I rode ALC-CHI then CHI-PDX then SEA-CHI-ALC in coach all the way and didn't mind the seats one bit.

 

[AlanB]

Its called money.
And if Amtrak's got the cash to do it-- then sure, go ahead. Until then I don't plan on seeing another dime out of the Feds for a LONG time and I would much rather have a baggage car that won't tear apart at the trucks then the engineer opens the throttle than a bunch of flipping 110 volt outlets on perfectly good coach cars.

I can't imagine adding outlets at every seat could cost more than $10,000-$100,000 per coach car. It could very well be the case that adding outlets at every seat to 100 coach cars costs less than buying one new baggage car, even.

(I am curious whether adding the outlets is just a matter of adding breakers to an existing panel and running wires from those breakers to the new outlets, or if there's a need to add another breaker panel and/or upgrade the size of the 480V-208V transformer. Actually, for that matter, I'm not even sure whether the output of those transformers is three phase 208V.)

The problem is that Amtrak doesn't want to run the wires, channels, and outlets into a car that hasn't been overhauled. If they do that, then they have to rip out all that work when the car does go in for it's heavy overhaul throwing that money away essentially. And that heavy overhaul takes a couple of weeks and costs a lot more money than what you're quoting, hence the slow pace of outfitting the fleet.

 

[Trogdor]

Since this thread is ostensibly about the cars being rebuilt, I'll mention that a lot of the Amfleets being rebuilt are actually Cafe cars (currently stored due to various incompatible interior configurations) that will be rebuilt as coaches.

 

[cpamtfan]

Since this thread is ostensibly about the cars being rebuilt, I'll mention that a lot of the Amfleets being rebuilt are actually Cafe cars (currently stored due to various incompatible interior configurations) that will be rebuilt as coaches.

Where did you hear this? What are they trying to do go back to 1977?

cpamtfan-Peter

 

[ALC Rail Writer]

Its called money.
And if Amtrak's got the cash to do it-- then sure, go ahead. Until then I don't plan on seeing another dime out of the Feds for a LONG time and I would much rather have a baggage car that won't tear apart at the trucks then the engineer opens the throttle than a bunch of flipping 110 volt outlets on perfectly good coach cars.

I can't imagine adding outlets at every seat could cost more than $10,000-$100,000 per coach car. It could very well be the case that adding outlets at every seat to 100 coach cars costs less than buying one new baggage car, even.

(I am curious whether adding the outlets is just a matter of adding breakers to an existing panel and running wires from those breakers to the new outlets, or if there's a need to add another breaker panel and/or upgrade the size of the 480V-208V transformer. Actually, for that matter, I'm not even sure whether the output of those transformers is three phase 208V.)

The problem is that Amtrak doesn't want to run the wires, channels, and outlets into a car that hasn't been overhauled. If they do that, then they have to rip out all that work when the car does go in for it's heavy overhaul throwing that money away essentially. And that heavy overhaul takes a couple of weeks and costs a lot more money than what you're quoting, hence the slow pace of outfitting the fleet.

Exactly. The Superliners are great cars but, like all things made before the Internet technology boom they do not lend themselves well to technological overhauls. You can't exactly run extension cords and hope it all works.

Something tells me they'll have more than enough work until the new railcars arrive with the mothballed Amfleets and such...

 

[Steve4031]

The other big issue with any Amtrak seats in coach class is the comfortableness of the seats. The current seats do not get it done. I think the best seats came from the old budd cars, and it wouldn't be a bad idea to create a more modern version of that.

Comfort is a matter of perception. I rode ALC-CHI then CHI-PDX then SEA-CHI-ALC in coach all the way and didn't mind the seats one bit.

Not necessarily. How tall are you? If you are shorter than I am, then you might have had a different expericne that I did. Also, that plastic strip between the two seats that is on all seats in in superliners and Amfleet II cars is literally a pain in the but if one were lucky enough to have to seats to themselves on an overnight trip. That strip did not exist on the older seats in the bud cars even after Amtrak made them into Heritage fleet cars.

 

[nferr]

I would much rather ride in a Viewliner roomette than a Superliner roomette. The fact that you have a private sink and toilet is a HUGE plus IMO. The upper level of windows is another huge plus. I can sleep up top and still get a view, while leaving the lower area set up for sitting. That way it's all set up for sleeping up top but I can sit up and read or whatever till I'm ready. The big storage area over the aisle is another big plus. Yes, the Viewliners have gotten somewhat run-down but nothing a nice refurbishing wouldn't fix. I love the Viewliners.