Changes Coming to METRO & THE Map

[Ispolkom]

The problem with that is that NY Ave is really long, so the station name doesn't do a very good job of saying where exactly the station is located.

NoMA is shorter and more precise. Exactly what WMATA was going for.

That said, I still refer to it as NY Ave in conversation.

NY Ave is five characters. NoMA is four, plus it has that horrible internal capitalization. Not a big improvement, in my opinion. At least my favorite station hasn't changed. One of my fonder memories of ten years of commuting on the Washington Metro was the trainman announcing, "Red Line to Shaaaady Grove!"

 

[Ryan]

The former name wasn't "NY Ave", it was "New York Ave-Florida Ave-Gallaudet U".

"NoMA-Gallaudet U" is a big improvement, as it's shorter and more geographically correct.

 

[NY Penn]

Why not call it

New York Av

Florida Av

? It would be much shorter and would avoid putting all possible names into a station.

SoHo district in NYC, which looking it up, stands for South of HOuston Avenue.

It's Houston Street.

 

[johnny.menhennet]

The problem with that is that NY Ave is really long, so the station name doesn't do a very good job of saying where exactly the station is located.

NoMA is shorter and more precise. Exactly what WMATA was going for.

That said, I still refer to it as NY Ave in conversation.

NY Ave is five characters. NoMA is four, plus it has that horrible internal capitalization. Not a big improvement, in my opinion. At least my favorite station hasn't changed. One of my fonder memories of ten years of commuting on the Washington Metro was the trainman announcing, "Red Line to Shaaaady Grove!"

Ryan is referencing that the street itself is really long and stretches across DC for a while, so it is not descriptive because so many places are on NY Ave, not the fact that the actual name NoMa is shorter than NY Ave

 

[sechs]

This is not any different than countless towns, communities, and streets that have been named by developers all over the US.

I guess L'Enfant was just some developer hack....

 

[sechs]

The problem with that is that NY Ave is really long, so the station name doesn't do a very good job of saying where exactly the station is located.

How's NY-FL Ave? That's the general vicinity that they're after.

NoMA is shorter and more precise. Exactly what WMATA was going for.

It's not more precise if it's not descriptive, as people don't know what "NoMa" is. They could have renamed the station "James Carter" and at least had an acceptable reason behind it.

That said, I still refer to it as NY Ave in conversation.

Calling it "SoNY" probably would have caused problems.

 

[jis]

This is not any different than countless towns, communities, and streets that have been named by developers all over the US.

I guess L'Enfant was just some developer hack....

Actually he kind of was..... Foisted onto us by the big bad government no less

Anyway, NoMa is no worse than DUMBO, fortunately no subway station named that yet, since there is none in close enough vicinity. We'll all get used to it after everyone has had their go at venting about it.

 

[sechs]

Except that DUMBO is an organic name. People started using it, and businesses later picked up on it.

NoMa was concocted by businesses, as a brand name. Due to the plat of the city, Massachusetts Avenue doesn't even run east-west; the area should really be called "NEoMa."

 

[Ryan]

Now you're just being ridiculous.

Houston Street doesn't run E-W either.

I'm not sure why someone in California is so wrapped around the axle about what we call a neighborhood here in DC. You might not have know where NoMA was before this thread, but people here certainly do.

 

[jis]

American Museum of Ridiculously Long Transportation System Names and Signs

I wish this really existed!

Maybe Anthony can set it up as an annex to the Timetable Library ..... no juuuust kidding :giggle:

 

[jis]

Except that DUMBO is an organic name. People started using it, and businesses later picked up on it.

NoMa was concocted by businesses, as a brand name. Due to the plat of the city, Massachusetts Avenue doesn't even run east-west; the area should really be called "NEoMa."

Come on! I don't see you complaining abut SoHo not being SWoHo in New York! :blink:

So then you would be opposed to including names like Lafrak City or say Yankee Stadium or Prudential or World Trade Center or even Pennsylvania Station, in any station name even if people do find it useful due to their knowledge of local geography? Afterall those are all manufactured names by private or public autonomous outfits, no?

Frankly I do not see much logic in your bellyaching, but of course everyone is free to bellyache about whatever pleases them or not.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

American Museum of Ridiculously Long Transportation System Names and Signs

I wish this really existed!

Maybe Anthony can set it up as an annex to the Timetable Library ..... no juuuust kidding :giggle:

Someone should write a RFP, there could be grant money for this! :lol:

 

[The Journalist]

I lived in DC many years ago (I was 11) and I vividly remember the "split" Green Line. At that time the Glenmont extension was still under construction as well-since I lived by Tenleytown station and took the Red frequently it was strange to hear the announcement change from "Wheaton" to "Glenmont" when it opened.

So the Dulles extension is officially the Silver Line now? I know that's what it'd been called unofficially for years but I don't remember hearing it ever being made official.

Also, I'm puzzled about where the Silver is going to end. I've been hearing Stadium-Armory...but if the split Orange is a placeholder for the Silver, it would make more sense to send the Silver to Largo and end the Blue at Stadium-and send both to Largo during rush period.

Really, though, looking at the capacity issues on the Rosslyn interchange, it looks like eventually they're going to need another set of tunnels crossing the Potomac from Arlington/Fairfax/(Loudoun?) County. Wasn't there some vague concept of running the Blue up though Georgetown and over to Union?

All that said, this is likely the best Metro map I've seen. The parking symbol is something reasonably standard-a P in a box-rather than a bizarre car symbol, the unnecessary short-turn explanation boxes on the Red and Yellow are gone, and sections under construction look significantly different. I also like the new "bus to airport" symbol. I do think eventually they're going to need to make the lines slimmer where three services run on the same tracks-having Blue, Orange, and Silver all together is going to make that line through the middle nonsensically thick if they keep them all the same size.

 

[afigg]

So the Dulles extension is officially the Silver Line now? I know that's what it'd been called unofficially for years but I don't remember hearing it ever being made official.

Yes, the official name for the extension to Dulles is the Silver Line. It was the unofficial label for years, but by the time the WMATA board had to select the official name last year, the name Silver Line was in such widespread use, they really had to stick with the Silver Line.

Also, I'm puzzled about where the Silver is going to end. I've been hearing Stadium-Armory...but if the split Orange is a placeholder for the Silver, it would make more sense to send the Silver to Largo and end the Blue at Stadium-and send both to Largo during rush period.

The plans that I have seen call for the Silver Line trains to end at Stadium-Armory. That provide direct connections from Dulles, Reston, Tysons to the city core stops. Besides not wanting to change the Blue Line route at this time, I suspect one consideration is that if Phase 2 is built as planned, it will be a very long distance run from Rt. 772 in Ashburn to East Falls Church to Stadium-Armory. Extending the trains to Largo Town Center would be a very long run for the operators. The Silver Line extension to Dulles and Rt. 772 in Ashburn will be 23 miles total (Phase 1 = 11.6 miles, Phase 2 = 11.x miles). I'll have to add the miles from the merge with the Orange line east of West Falls Church to Stadium-Armory and then Largo Town Center. Crew and equipment operational issues may be a major factor in ending the Silver Line at Stadium Armory.

Really, though, looking at the capacity issues on the Rosslyn interchange, it looks like eventually they're going to need another set of tunnels crossing the Potomac from Arlington/Fairfax/(Loudoun?) County. Wasn't there some vague concept of running the Blue up though Georgetown and over to Union?

The concept is more than vague, alternate routes for re-routes of the Blue through DC have been studied at a projected traffic level by the WMATA planners. There are viewgraph presentations posted last year on a number of alternate extensions and new lines they have analyzed at the http://planitmetro.com/ website. The alternate route for the Blue Line that gets some traction is to have go under the Rosslyn station, under the Potomac to Georgetown with 2 new stations in Georgetown, then turn east under M street, connect at Mt. Vernon Sq, then head SE to Union station providing a second Metro line at Union station, then reconnect to the current Blue line west of Stadium Armory where the Orange/Blue cross the Anacostia.

I do think eventually they're going to need to make the lines slimmer where three services run on the same tracks-having Blue, Orange, and Silver all together is going to make that line through the middle nonsensically thick if they keep them all the same size.

The Metro lines are a little thinner on the new map. The reports were that Lance Wyman who did the new map and the original Metro map also submitted one with Phase 1 of the Silver Line on it minus final station names. That map has not been made public, but I would expect the lines will have to be made thinner for the combined Orange/Blue/Silver segment.

 

[Ryan]

All that said, this is likely the best Metro map I've seen. The parking symbol is something reasonably standard-a P in a box-rather than a bizarre car symbol, the unnecessary short-turn explanation boxes on the Red and Yellow are gone, and sections under construction look significantly different. I also like the new "bus to airport" symbol. I do think eventually they're going to need to make the lines slimmer where three services run on the same tracks-having Blue, Orange, and Silver all together is going to make that line through the middle nonsensically thick if they keep them all the same size.

Best official map, yes.

Cameron Booth's version of it takes the Lance Wyman map behind the woodshed and tans its hide:

http://greatergreaterwashington.org/post/4958/the-booth-map-redesigning-wmatas-map/

Cameron Booth's:

WMATA's:

 

[sechs]

You might not have know where NoMA was before this thread, but people here certainly do.

Locals don't really need station names. It's the outsiders that need them.

 

[sechs]

Come on! I don't see you complaining abut SoHo not being SWoHo in New York!

Is there a SoHo station in New York?

So then you would be opposed to including names like Lafrak City or say Yankee Stadium or Prudential or World Trade Center or even Pennsylvania Station, in any station name even if people do find it useful due to their knowledge of local geography? Afterall those are all manufactured names by private or public autonomous outfits, no?

Those are real places; their names are real. The definition of "NoMa" is totally artificial. It's a business district not a neighborhood!

 

[Ryan]

So then you would be opposed to including names like Lafrak City or say Yankee Stadium or Prudential or World Trade Center or even Pennsylvania Station, in any station name even if people do find it useful due to their knowledge of local geography? Afterall those are all manufactured names by private or public autonomous outfits, no?

Those are real places; their names are real. The definition of "NoMa" is totally artificial. It's a business district not a neighborhood!

NoMA is just as real as those places, the opinion of one person 3,000 miles away notwithstanding.

In the realm of "poorly nameed Metro stations", NoMA doesn't even crack the top 10.

 

[jis]

So then you would be opposed to including names like Lafrak City or say Yankee Stadium or Prudential or World Trade Center or even Pennsylvania Station, in any station name even if people do find it useful due to their knowledge of local geography? Afterall those are all manufactured names by private or public autonomous outfits, no?

Those are real places; their names are real. The definition of "NoMa" is totally artificial. It's a business district not a neighborhood!

NoMA is just as real as those places, the opinion of one person 3,000 miles away notwithstanding.

In the realm of "poorly nameed Metro stations", NoMA doesn't even crack the top 10.

Yeah.... really!

I was in Washington DC for the last two weeks at various standards meetings and company technical conference. I did a random sample survey of people about NoMA after this heated discussion broke out on AU. I found two distinct groups of people....

(a) Washingtonians who ride the Metro. None of them were unaware of where NoMA is and thought that getting a shorter name such as NoMA for the station in question is generally a good idea.

(b) Outsider, who had no clue where NoMA is, many of whom also did no have a clue where Smithsonian is either. Actually several I got to help get them there

I did not run into any railfan from California to get an idea on how they feel about this matter though :giggle:

So my conclusion from this admittedly unscientific field study is that this discussion is a huge storm in a teacup.

The worst that I have come across is naming stations after national heroes that carries no information about where the station is located. AFAICT usually observed where people have very little say on what is done to them or to their station.

 

[The Davy Crockett]

So my conclusion from this admittedly unscientific field study is that this discussion is a huge storm in a teacup.

This tempest in a teapot is enough to drive one to the Center of Mass. Ave. - CoMA.

(Which, by the way is the state one would be in if they spent any time in the center of such a busy road in DC - In a coma that is, not Massachusetts. :giggle: )

 

[The Journalist]

Yes, the official name for the extension to Dulles is the Silver Line. It was the unofficial label for years, but by the time the WMATA board had to select the official name last year, the name Silver Line was in such widespread use, they really had to stick with the Silver Line.

I guess I missed when it was selected. I imagine if they'd decided to call it the Pink Line instead it would have caused an uproar.

The plans that I have seen call for the Silver Line trains to end at Stadium-Armory. That provide direct connections from Dulles, Reston, Tysons to the city core stops. Besides not wanting to change the Blue Line route at this time, I suspect one consideration is that if Phase 2 is built as planned, it will be a very long distance run from Rt. 772 in Ashburn to East Falls Church to Stadium-Armory. Extending the trains to Largo Town Center would be a very long run for the operators. The Silver Line extension to Dulles and Rt. 772 in Ashburn will be 23 miles total (Phase 1 = 11.6 miles, Phase 2 = 11.x miles). I'll have to add the miles from the merge with the Orange line east of West Falls Church to Stadium-Armory and then Largo Town Center. Crew and equipment operational issues may be a major factor in ending the Silver Line at Stadium Armory.

That makes sense, I didn't realize just how long the Silver was going to be. The contortion the Blue does makes it look longer than it is, so I thought it was the longest route.

The concept is more than vague, alternate routes for re-routes of the Blue through DC have been studied at a projected traffic level by the WMATA planners. There are viewgraph presentations posted last year on a number of alternate extensions and new lines they have analyzed at the http://planitmetro.com/ website. The alternate route for the Blue Line that gets some traction is to have go under the Rosslyn station, under the Potomac to Georgetown with 2 new stations in Georgetown, then turn east under M street, connect at Mt. Vernon Sq, then head SE to Union station providing a second Metro line at Union station, then reconnect to the current Blue line west of Stadium Armory where the Orange/Blue cross the Anacostia.

Like this one? Link

That shows Silver going on a new alignment (and skipping all the stations between Rosslyn and WFC) but the general concept seems sensible enough.

Though that sounds like it's about 30 years away

 

[AlanB]

The plans that I have seen call for the Silver Line trains to end at Stadium-Armory. That provide direct connections from Dulles, Reston, Tysons to the city core stops. Besides not wanting to change the Blue Line route at this time, I suspect one consideration is that if Phase 2 is built as planned, it will be a very long distance run from Rt. 772 in Ashburn to East Falls Church to Stadium-Armory. Extending the trains to Largo Town Center would be a very long run for the operators. The Silver Line extension to Dulles and Rt. 772 in Ashburn will be 23 miles total (Phase 1 = 11.6 miles, Phase 2 = 11.x miles). I'll have to add the miles from the merge with the Orange line east of West Falls Church to Stadium-Armory and then Largo Town Center. Crew and equipment operational issues may be a major factor in ending the Silver Line at Stadium Armory.

As a rough guess, it looks like it's about 14 miles from West Falls Church to Largo. Toss another 23 miles on top for the Silver run to Dulles and you'd have a run of 37 miles one way.

The A train up in NYC is a little over 31 miles from 207th Street to Far Rockaway and it take almost 2 hours to make the run when running local (less if running express); so it's not like running end to end for the Silver line would be something outrageous and unheard of.

 

[George Harris]

WMATA cannot run express services because it is two tracks only throughout. Therefore there is no place for express trains to pass local trains. Note that the NYC lines that have express/local services have four tracks.

 

[MattW]

This takes us a little off topic, but is express service even possible on double track? I know WMATA runs some trains in this area with headways down in the 3-5 minute range, but what about running a third set of trains around trains with existing 7.5 and 15 minute headways? Couldn't the dispatching system thread trains onto the left-hand track around a local train stopped in a station or something?

 

[NY Penn]

All it would take is one minor delay and everything would come crashing down.

As for express, IMO <10 stops in 23 miles is already virtually an express service.