Chicago-Detroit-Toronto service proposal with Amtrak/VIA connection in Windsor ON

[thully]

Just saw news of a new plan for Amtrak/VIA connecting Chicago-Detroit-Toronto service. As part of the plan, Amtrak train 350 would split from the existing route after Dearborn, serve Michigan Central Station in Detroit, and then use the CP tunnel and a new connecting track to reach the existing Windsor VIA station. There, passengers would clear Canadian customs in a new joint Canada/US customs facility and transfer to VIA train 76 to Toronto. In the reverse direction, passengers would take VIA train 73 to Windsor, disembark and clear US customs there, and then board Amtrak train 355 to Detroit and points west all the way to Chicago.

This seems like an interesting way to do it - having passengers transfer trains and doing customs in Windsor may avoid some of the pitfalls of the International. Though I feel like VIA running to Detroit (with a single Amtrak running to MCS to connect) might offer potential for more ridership, as they could extend all their trains there. And Detroit seems like a more logical endpoint for train service than Windsor…. Guessing the reasoning for Amtrak going to Windsor must have to do with Customs facility location..

Story:

https://www.iheartradio.ca/am800/ne...Drew Dilkens is,stops in Detroit and Windsor.

 

[jiml]

This will be interesting to say the least. Getting from the CP tunnel to the VIA station in Walkerville has been discussed at length previously. The industrial track between CP Windsor and the VIA line is a possibility with a "two-headed" train, as some Wolverine consists now feature. An additional turnout at the top end would expedite things considerably - assume that's what they're showing.

A similar concept (Amtrak-VIA) was tried after the demise of the International using a "Thruway" style bus connection. It failed due to misconnection issues - whether a late arriving train on either side or delays with the bus crossing the border. VIA 76 is a pivotal train since it is a run-through after Toronto with only a 40-minute layover. They'd be unlikely to wait for an Amtrak delay and I suspect the reverse would also be true.

Of course a lot could change by 2027.

 

[BlackDiamond]

One potential issue would be the use of the Michigan Central Station for the Detroit stop rather than the existing Amtrak station. Would Amtrak be able to get the planned use of this building to incorporate an Amtrak facility? I guess moving other Wolverine trains here precludes service to Troy and Pontiac. Although there does seem to be a track connection that would allow trains to reverse at MC station and continue to the existing station + Royal Oak/Troy/Pontiac.

 

[jiml]

One potential issue would be the use of the Michigan Central Station for the Detroit stop rather than the existing Amtrak station. Would Amtrak be able to get the planned use of this building to incorporate an Amtrak facility? I guess moving other Wolverine trains here precludes service to Troy and Pontiac. Although there does seem to be a track connection that would allow trains to reverse at MC station and continue to the existing station + Royal Oak/Troy/Pontiac.

I think there was a willingness in the past to work with Ford - the station's owner - to restore at least some passenger service to MCS. There are at least 4 relevant AU threads in the past few years that show up in a search. As you suggest, the larger issues were how to get back "on track" to serve the communities north of Detroit since getting to Canada from MCS is fairly straightforward. I guess that's why only one daily train is included in the new diversion. @thully raises an interesting point about VIA trains to MCS to further justify the connection in the first place. It would seem with the amount of money to be invested locating a new VIA station along the reroute in Windsor wouldn't be that big a deal. The current Windsor facility is decent but has no historical significance and is in a less-than-ideal location requiring a not-cheap taxi ride, with taxis seldom waiting for train arrivals. I travelled there many times and have a friend who goes frequently, so know it's an issue. A transit hub closer to downtown along the Essex line might be something the mayor should be looking at before crowing about a single train that will take 4 years to start on tracks that are mostly in place.

Although it doesn't solve the Pontiac problem, if the parties are going to all the trouble and investment suggested in the article, wouldn't it make far more sense to build a new Windsor station/customs facility on the reroute and run every Amtrak and VIA train between Chicago and Toronto via MCS? That's where the corridor potential exists. There are a lot of very short flights between Chicago and Toronto, not to mention Chicago and Detroit, and even a handful of 40-minuters between Toronto and Windsor.

 

[jis]

One potential issue would be the use of the Michigan Central Station for the Detroit stop rather than the existing Amtrak station. Would Amtrak be able to get the planned use of this building to incorporate an Amtrak facility? I guess moving other Wolverine trains here precludes service to Troy and Pontiac. Although there does seem to be a track connection that would allow trains to reverse at MC station and continue to the existing station + Royal Oak/Troy/Pontiac.

The obvious thing to do is just reverse trains at MCS to serve North of Detroit. Afterall the equipment used will be reversible as in the Midwest Venture sets. While at it Wye trains at MCS to serve a potential New York - Toledo - Detroit - Chicago type train if it ever comes to pass. That would be no different than what the CZ does in Denver. But well somehow such a thing might prove to be almost a showstopper while some us shake our heads in disbelief one more time.

 

[crescent-zephyr]

It seems to me, that this is alot of work and budget going to a service that could already be provided with a dedicated thru-way bus. If you have to get off the train and onto another, what difference does a short bus ride make?

 

[jis]

It seems to me, that this is alot of work and buget going to a service that could already be provided with a dedicated thru-way bus. If you have to get off the train and onto another, what difference does a short bus ride make?

True. In any case it is mostly Canadian money since the big track juggling involved is mostly in Canada. In the US the changes needed are relatively trivial, and if MCS is not reactivated then it is almost nothing.

 

[Grey]

Terrible idea. Poor planning. Who came up with it? Firstly, this should all be high speed rail!! Imagine, this will be a 14 hr train ride to / from Chicago / Toronto - with the 3 hr layover in Windsor. (Meanwhile, a 90 min plane ride, or 8 hrs by car, plus all benefits of using your car.) Who would ever use this??? Make it highspeed ... 4 hrs, so ppl will use it. Second, make the VIA station at Wellington & Wyandotte (right where the tunnel emerges) .. 1 km to downtown. VIA markets downtown to downtown (this is far more downtown than Walkerville). This also enables a straight shot out of Windsor on fast track... no need to buy and build new (but old) track. Build new highspeed track for high speed rail. Stop in Windsor and in Detroit. Ppl will use it just to cross from Windsor to Detroit, and vice-versa. Have shuttles going from both train stations to airports when trains arrive. This would also free up the existing VIA (CN) track. The proposed plan in this article will be a massive loss.

 

[Urban Sky]

Terrible idea. Poor planning. Who came up with it? Firstly, this should all be high speed rail!! Imagine, this will be a 14 hr train ride to / from Chicago / Toronto - with the 3 hr layover in Windsor. (Meanwhile, a 90 min plane ride, or 8 hrs by car, plus all benefits of using your car.) Who would ever use this??? Make it highspeed ... 4 hrs, so ppl will use it. Second, make the VIA station at Wellington & Wyandotte (right where the tunnel emerges) .. 1 km to downtown. VIA markets downtown to downtown (this is far more downtown than Walkerville). This also enables a straight shot out of Windsor on fast track... no need to buy and build new (but old) track. Build new highspeed track for high speed rail. Stop in Windsor and in Detroit. Ppl will use it just to cross from Windsor to Detroit, and vice-versa. Have shuttles going from both train stations to airports when trains arrive. This would also free up the existing VIA (CN) track. The proposed plan in this article will be a massive loss.

The best way to kill any modest rail proposal and to prevent anything from ever happening is to shout “BuT iT hAs To Be HSR!1!!!”, which would easily increase the financial scale of this project by factor 100.

Also, if you look at the timetable hinted in the “Factsheets” shown in that article, it seems like they are rather aiming at a transfer time of 60 minutes and a total travel time of 11 hours (which would match that of the Maple Leaf between NYC and Toronto):

 

[railiner]

The obvious thing to do is just reverse trains at MCS to serve North of Detroit. Afterall the equipment used will be reversible as in the Midwest Venture sets.

I believe a better solution would be if SMART would take over operation of the line North of Detroit, as it did in its "SEMTA" era. Amtrak would only operate Chicago to Detroit or Windsor....

 

[jebr]

It seems to me, that this is alot of work and budget going to a service that could already be provided with a dedicated thru-way bus. If you have to get off the train and onto another, what difference does a short bus ride make?

The process, even if it requires changing trains, would still be much more seamless if they can get CBSA/CBP clearance at the Windsor station while changing trains. At that point it's simply get off the train > go through customs > board the train on the other side of the platform. It'd be very similar to the Maple Leaf in passenger experience, with the only difference being that it'd be a different physical train they're boarding (instead of the same train.)

With a dedicated thruway bus, there'd likely be three on/off cycles instead of just the one: off the train in Detroit and onto the bus, off the bus at the border to go through CBSA/CBP clearance and then back on, and finally getting off in Windsor and onto the train. Theoretically one could be eliminated if CBSA/CBP are willing to do some sort of clearance at one of the stations, but I highly doubt either agency has any interest in making that happen and working through any potential security/border vulnerabilities it may introduce.

 

[Amtrak25]

It assumes just one hour for customs. Hah. Everyone forgets it was US Customs that killed the service through Port Huron. They were bad enough before 9/11/01, then got impossible.

I hardly consider the Maple Leaf model as successful. Trans-border ridership can be fit into one coach, more often than not, everyone can have a window seat. That's why it takes just 60 to 90 minutes most days. At least on inter city buses, your luggage are in the luggage loaders and you are not navigating steps with it. The off and on at the border with your luggage and standing and waiting has killed most ridership. VIA fares on their portion of the route are also ridiculously high.

It was far easier and more efficient to cross between the two Germanies. Let's just regard the US and Canada too incompetent and uncivilized to do any better.

 

[Trogdor]

I believe a better solution would be if SMART would take over operation of the line North of Detroit, as it did in its "SEMTA" era. Amtrak would only operate Chicago to Detroit or Windsor....

This could make sense if service is vastly increased on both corridors (CHI-DET and DET-PNT), but with the current anemic service, the trains wouldn’t do anything but overnight in Detroit instead of Pontiac.

Imagine, this will be a 14 hr train ride to / from Chicago / Toronto - with the 3 hr layover in Windsor. (Meanwhile, a 90 min plane ride, or 8 hrs by car, plus all benefits of using your car.) Who would ever use this???

Can’t you say that about practically any Amtrak service? Virtually every route is much faster by plane, and many non-NEC trips are faster by car.

make the VIA station at Wellington & Wyandotte (right where the tunnel emerges) .. 1 km to downtown. VIA markets downtown to downtown (this is far more downtown than Walkerville).

This part I agree with. Overall, it seems it would be much better if VIA could go to Detroit than Amtrak to Windsor. I’d imagine Detroit is a more attractive destination for people from east of Windsor than Windsor is for people west of Detroit. Therefore, anyone going, say, Toronto to Detroit has to take a connecting train for just one stop. If the border inspection could be done in Detroit, then the arriving passengers could just simply move on once they clear customs. Now, everybody will have to wait for the connection, including those with Nexus/Global Entry who could have avoided the wait.

It would also make (longer-term) for more possibilities for frequent service on the CHI-DET side if you’re not tying up a set heading up to Windsor and back.

 

[jiml]

The best way to kill any modest rail proposal and to prevent anything from ever happening is to shout “BuT iT hAs To Be HSR!1!!!”, which would easily increase the financial scale of this project by factor 100.

Nailed it. Sometimes we can't see the glass half-full. We can debate aspects of this proposal like station location or train frequency, but mustn't overlook that any improvement is better than no improvement. Hanging the HSR albatross around its neck will quickly lead to dismissal.

 

[jis]

The best way to kill any modest rail proposal and to prevent anything from ever happening is to shout “BuT iT hAs To Be HSR!1!!!”, which would easily increase the financial scale of this project by factor 100.

You are right. The primary discussion in this thread is about what can practically be done in short order for relatively modest investment by Amtrak and VIA. There is a separate Forum about future dreams for discussing such admittedly visionary ideas without having them destroy discussion of more immediate practical ideas.

 

[jiml]

Terrible idea. Poor planning. Who came up with it? Firstly, this should all be high speed rail!! Imagine, this will be a 14 hr train ride to / from Chicago / Toronto - with the 3 hr layover in Windsor. (Meanwhile, a 90 min plane ride, or 8 hrs by car, plus all benefits of using your car.) Who would ever use this??? Make it highspeed ... 4 hrs, so ppl will use it. Second, make the VIA station at Wellington & Wyandotte (right where the tunnel emerges) .. 1 km to downtown. VIA markets downtown to downtown (this is far more downtown than Walkerville). This also enables a straight shot out of Windsor on fast track... no need to buy and build new (but old) track. Build new highspeed track for high speed rail. Stop in Windsor and in Detroit. Ppl will use it just to cross from Windsor to Detroit, and vice-versa. Have shuttles going from both train stations to airports when trains arrive. This would also free up the existing VIA (CN) track. The proposed plan in this article will be a massive loss.

Welcome to AU. Obviously you have some knowledge of the area and the lack of a passenger rail link. This proposal simply adds to a discussion that has been ongoing for years - not only here but in other rail forums, actual planning and government circles. Not all your observations are without merit and many have been discussed in the past, including station locations, actual route and train frequency. Past Ontario governments have even floated the idea of High Speed Rail on the route. As the learned poster who already replied has noted, HSR in this market is likely never going to fly, with cost being the primary deterrent. All levels of government on both sides of the river would have to throw buckets of money at a service that is unlikely to justify it. Without even talking about building the railway on either side, you're going to need a new tunnel or bridge. HSR is not going to share tracks through the existing CP tunnel. If you're local to the area you already know how well twinning/replacing the Ambassador Bridge has gone. Try and mount a similar project to carry a costly rail line before one track is laid. The estimate of 100x may not come close to covering the total.

Your location for a Windsor station has been discussed and there is no reason it wouldn't work, although it might be easier to gain approval to build one along the ETR connector where there was significant space and abandoned yard areas. In either case a combined VIA/Amtrak station with integrated customs facilities for Canadian arrival and US pre-clearance would be ideal, and sufficient service (i.e. more than one train) would justify building and staffing it. Hopefully this proposal is just the opening of a larger discussion and should be viewed as a positive step forward.

 

[jis]

Your location for a Windsor station has been discussed and there is no reason it wouldn't work, although it might be easier to gain approval to build one along the ETR connector where there was significant space and abandoned yard areas. In either case a combined VIA/Amtrak station with integrated customs facilities for Canadian arrival and US pre-clearance would be ideal, and sufficient service (i.e. more than one train) would justify building and staffing it. Hopefully this proposal is just the opening of a larger discussion and should be viewed as a positive step forward.

Given the amount of space that is potentially available at the Michigan Central Station, an alternative worth considering would be to place the American and Canadian C&I facility there, just as was the original intended use of the Niagara Falls NY Station (Of course the Canadians are yet to use it, though all the necessary treaties are in place now). Additionally, this would make it easier for VIA to terminate its trains in Detroit rather than in Windsor if they so desire, as mentioned by @Trogdor a few posts back.

That way we can concentrate on just getting a basic en-route station and line connection built in Windsor. One advantage of doing it this way is to offload some of the cost to the American side. In the wholly Canadian alternative Canada will likely have to come up with the full funding for everything absent yet another treaty. Depending on Canada to fund any aspect of rail service from/to the US has proved elusive and difficult to achieve even where it has been, like in the Pacific Northwest. OTOH, as far as I can tell, the C&I facility at Montreal Central appears to be pretty dead in the water for the foreseeable future as the Government of the Province of Quebec bickers among itself.

 

[MARC Rider]

It assumes just one hour for customs. Hah. Everyone forgets it was US Customs that killed the service through Port Huron. They were bad enough before 9/11/01, then got impossible.

I hardly consider the Maple Leaf model as successful. Trans-border ridership can be fit into one coach, more often than not, everyone can have a window seat. That's why it takes just 60 to 90 minutes most days. At least on inter city buses, your luggage are in the luggage loaders and you are not navigating steps with it. The off and on at the border with your luggage and standing and waiting has killed most ridership. VIA fares on their portion of the route are also ridiculously high.

It was far easier and more efficient to cross between the two Germanies. Let's just regard the US and Canada too incompetent and uncivilized to do any better.

Two Germanies? Were the Russians up something while I've been on vacation?

 

[jis]

Two Germanies? Were the Russians up something while I've been on vacation?

Methinks he was tongue in the cheek referring to the two Germanies when it was divided before the Iron Curtain collapsed. Actually it was much harder to cross between the two Germanies at the height of the Cold War than it is to cross from US to Canada or vice versa even at Niagara Falls NY/ON Amtrak and VIA stations.

 

[west point]

Detroit's MC station really has the facilities to be the location for service CHI <> Toronto. Probably Ford will be willing to restore the old customs facility or build a new one. As well MC will have station tracks off the main unlike what Windsor can provide. Since Amtrak already provides 4 RT trains that go into Canada VIA needs to have one or more to end the USA.

Toronto - CHI and all intermediate station passengers that originate in Canada can walk off VIA, pass thru border facilities and walk onto Amtrak train or wait in station. Now other direction Amtrak passenger detrain and get on VIA train. Probably same platform especially if platform high level. Since Canada does not seem interested in putting their controls at MC it will have to use present facilities in Windsor. Maybe Canada will not require passengers to detrain?

Wild thought. If MC platform wide enough a facility could be built right on platform, Proper design to allow Detroit passengers on Amtrak to bypass such a facility,

 

[Willbridge]

From Windsor's point of view.
..
https://windsorstar.com/news/local-...roposed-toronto-chicago-passenger-train-route

 

[thully]

Detroit's MC station really has the facilities to be the location for service CHI <> Toronto. Probably Ford will be willing to restore the old customs facility or build a new one. As well MC will have station tracks off the main unlike what Windsor can provide. Since Amtrak already provides 4 RT trains that go into Canada VIA needs to have one or more to end the USA.

Toronto - CHI and all intermediate station passengers that originate in Canada can walk off VIA, pass thru border facilities and walk onto Amtrak train or wait in station. Now other direction Amtrak passenger detrain and get on VIA train. Probably same platform especially if platform high level. Since Canada does not seem interested in putting their controls at MC it will have to use present facilities in Windsor. Maybe Canada will not require passengers to detrain?

Wild thought. If MC platform wide enough a facility could be built right on platform, Proper design to allow Detroit passengers on Amtrak to bypass such a facility,

Yeah - I feel like VIA could see a lot more ridership by extending their Windsor-Toronto train (or at least some of them) to Detroit. Would make it a viable option for Canadians who want to go to Detroit for an event or other reasons - while many in Detroit can drive to Windsor currently, those from Canada won’t have a car on the Windsor end. While the plan for a connection would provide this for one trip per day, VIA could potentially run more than that and provide a more convenient one-seat ride for Toronto-Detroit, while still providing connections to Amtrak at MCS. Having more VIA trains cross the border would also open up connections further down the corridor to Ottawa/Montreal/Quebec City, some of which would require overnight stays with the proposed plan. And Detroit just seems like a far more logical endpoint for service than Windsor - there will be a lot more options there in case of a misconnect.

 

[west point]

It would seem that all the expenses to correct Windsor problems could be better spent to improve the route Windsor - Toronto. Since all passengers will have to detrain for border checks I cannot see Amtrak having to dedicate another train set for travel in Canada. VIA is not stepping up to the plate with equipment. The VIA method of HEP is not compatible with Amtrak's

 

[Amtrak25]

If VIA terminates in Detroit, CBSA will find a way to delay departures whenever they want. Run the Tunnel bus every 20 minutes rather than every hour as now, and have it serve Amtrak in Detoit and VIA in Walkerville.

VIA Rail HEP is easily made compatible with Amtrak with crossover cabling. The last time it was done was after Sandy with Amtrak engines hauling VIA equipment to Albany.

https://www.nwrail.com/HEP_config.html

 

[jiml]

The VIA method of HEP is not compatible with Amtrak's

I believe that was resolved years ago.



There are lots of more recent cases of equipment swaps and loans too: