Comparing Amtrak Schedules, Past vs. Present

[neroden]

The loss of the north-south NYC routes in Ohio (Detroit-Toledo-Dayton-Cincy and Cleveland-Columbus-Dayton-Cincy) was very bad for Ohio. I'm not quite sure when that happened.... either during Penn Central, or on Amtrak-Day. Anyone know for sure?

 

[Eric S]

I think NARP used to have maps of passenger rail service in the years before and after Amtrak, something like 1960, 1965, 1971 pre-Amtrak, etc, but I could not find them in a quick search of the site.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Here's a question. If you can go back to the Amtrak route system any year since 1971 (pre-Amtrak is not an option), which would you choose?

As I said before, the first Amtrak didn't serve Cleveland or Dallas so I wouldn't want that.

The obvious answer would be before the 1979 cuts while the Floridian, National Limited, and Lone Star were still running. Also, the Broadway Limited had the through cars to WAS. Sure, the CL is better for CHI-WAS but the BL was better for BAL. Also, the Cardinal actually served CIN at good hours instead of the current graveyard shift time.

However, there was no train service to Las Vegas (Desert Wind, which also connected DEN/SLC with LAX), no train service from Detroit-Toledo, and no train service on the SL east of NOL (that begun in 1993). I'm impartial to the Texas Eagle split to serve Houston via College Station (Southern Pacific?) which wasn't served by the Lone Star (

I'm torn between these two eras (before 1979 but after the LSL started and from the beginning of the coast to coast SL to the BL getting axed). So I would say 1978 or 1994. What do you think?

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

This was your best post ever Philly! Good job! Most enjoyable, I agree with lots of your ideas.

But as many of us have said, we don't want to cut LD Trains ( the Cardinal, your pet peeve) to add a Broadway Ltd.

If we can afford both, I have no objection.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

IMO The Cardinal should run to St Louis, perhaps even to Kansas City also, not to Chicago.

That would give the Cardinal a unique purpose. It would be similar to the old National Limited route west of IND.

And the through cars from the Pennsylvanian to the Cap in PGH is the easiest way to go, not aNew Broadway Ltd.

Easiest and certainly an improvement but I think a separate train would be more beneficial.

In fact, they used to run the CL/TR through cars (similar to the proposal) but then decided to run the TR to CHI as a separate train.

https://csanders429.wordpress.com/trains-and-routes/three-rivers/

"The switching costs of interchanging head-end and passengers cars in Pittsburgh were negating the saving from having discontinued the Broadway Limited. The interchange also at times hindered the on-time performance of the Three Rivers and the Capitol Limited."

Similarly I believe the CL was spun off from the BL as they used to run the trains together CHI-PGH.

I feel there is demand for both the BL and CL, especially if the BL is diverted through Michigan to add direct service from Michigan to PA/NJ/NY. In 2004, the TR had 149,562 riders. Back in 1991, the BL had about 190,000 and the CL had about 170,000 (at least according to this TrainOrders post: http://www.trainorders.com/discussion/read.php?4,2993507).

 

[Bob Dylan]

I'd take the 1978 Schedule (pre-Carter cuts) since I liked the Lone Star Route, the Broadway Ltd. and the National Limited too! Never rode the Floridian!

 

[Eric S]

If I'm picking an old route map, do I also have to accept the lower levels of service over corridors from that time as well?

Many, if not most, corridors have better service today than perhaps any time in the Amtrak era.

In other words, I don't want to gain a National Limited or Broadway Limited or Lone Star or Floridian if that means I lose all the new service in California or the Cascades or the improved service in the Northeast. Long distance map of the 1970s or 1980s with the corridor service of today? OK, count me in. Long distance map of the 1970s or 1980s with the corridor service of that period as well? No thanks,

 

[MARC Rider]

If I'm picking an old route map, do I also have to accept the lower levels of service over corridors from that time as well?

Many, if not most, corridors have better service today than perhaps any time in the Amtrak era.

In other words, I don't want to gain a National Limited or Broadway Limited or Lone Star or Floridian if that means I lose all the new service in California or the Cascades or the improved service in the Northeast. Long distance map of the 1970s or 1980s with the corridor service of today? OK, count me in. Long distance map of the 1970s or 1980s with the corridor service of that period as well? No thanks,

Come to think about it, even NEC service in the late 70s early 80s wasn't as good as it is now. There was even a time when I stopped riding it, as you could fly up to Newark for cheaper than an Amtrak ticket. BAL to NYP was 3 hours or so, and frequencies were less than today. I don't remember when I noticed that all the trains were faster and more frequent, but certainly by the mid 90s.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

I'd like to separate map from level of service. I would hope service would be better, more modern, and faster (which in many LD trains isn't true if you compare schedules). No doubt the Acela is better and faster than the old service along the NEC but NEC service always existed to my knowledge (has there been any time you haven't been able to travel between BOS and WAS?). How many meaningful city pairs (one seat rides) exist in 2016 that didn't exist before 1995? I wouldn't consider frequency increases either unless a city gains service outside of the graveyard shift.

October 1994 National Map:

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19941030n&item=0022

http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19941030n&item=0023

The only additions I see since 1994 was Maine and Oklahoma.

 

[railiner]

Here's a question. If you can go back to the Amtrak route system any year since 1971 (pre-Amtrak is not an option), which would you choose?

.......what do you think?

Too bad "pre-Amtrak is not an option"....

I would probably choose somewhere around 1956, as that is when the streamliner's were at their peak, The national network was incredible, compared with what we have today...

 

[railiner]

The loss of the north-south NYC routes in Ohio (Detroit-Toledo-Dayton-Cincy and Cleveland-Columbus-Dayton-Cincy) was very bad for Ohio. I'm not quite sure when that happened.... either during Penn Central, or on Amtrak-Day. Anyone know for sure?

Can't dig out my archives easily to check, but IIRC, just prior to Amtrak, the Detroit-Toledo-Dayton-Cincinnati route was last operated by the C&O and B&O on their route via Deshler, Lima, and Sidney....

 

[Seaboard92]

Well if we could go back to the 1956 map we would run into an issue. Some of the routes would be routes without tracks. Lots of abandonments since deregulation.

 

[Seaboard92]

As late as October of 70 you could take Penn Central from CIN-CLE same day. With a connection in Columbus. But going to Cin westbound there was an overnight connection to go from CLE by them.

 

[Metra Electric Rider]

Why go back when we could have better? Why not figure out new, more useful routes rather than recreating old ones (not saying some aren't useful)?

 

[jis]

Why go back when we could have better? Why not figure out new, more useful routes rather than recreating old ones (not saying some aren't useful)?

That would not satisfy the "nostalgia" aspect, which is a major pastime of many railfans.

 

[railiner]

Why go back when we could have better? Why not figure out new, more useful routes rather than recreating old ones (not saying some aren't useful)?

That would not satisfy the "nostalgia" aspect, which is a major pastime of many railfans.

Exactly....I don't expect to see in the rest of my life, any semblance of the service that I did see in my lifetime...I would love to be able to go back in time to see them again, and of course to ride routes that I never got a chance to....

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Why go back when we could have better? Why not figure out new, more useful routes rather than recreating old ones (not saying some aren't useful)?

New, old, as long as it serves NYP-CHI via NJ-PHL-HAR-PGH I'm happy.

The one advantage to old routes is Amtrak has some familiarity with the routes. Now some may not be usable anymore but some are. Also, maybe a city that used to have Amtrak but doesn't now might still have the station in place.

 

[railiner]

Why go back when we could have better? Why not figure out new, more useful routes rather than recreating old ones (not saying some aren't useful)?

New, old, as long as it serves NYP-CHI via NJ-PHL-HAR-PGH I'm happy.

If you were around before Amtrak, your favorite train would have to have been, The Pennsylvania Limited....unlike the other PRR New York-Chicago limiteds, it served PHL...that is Thirtieth Street Station (it actually was hauled backwards from New York to Philly to facilitate the move). The other trains stopped in North Philadelphia, and took the "subway" bypass to the Main Line....

 

[jphjaxfl]

Why go back when we could have better? Why not figure out new, more useful routes rather than recreating old ones (not saying some aren't useful)?

New, old, as long as it serves NYP-CHI via NJ-PHL-HAR-PGH I'm happy.

If you were around before Amtrak, your favorite train would have to have been, The Pennsylvania Limited....unlike the other PRR New York-Chicago limiteds, it served PHL...that is Thirtieth Street Station (it actually was hauled backwards from New York to Philly to facilitate the move). The other trains stopped in North Philadelphia, and took the "subway" bypass to the Main Line....

The Pennsylvania Limited left Chicago later at night so it provided overnight service to Pittsburgh and daylight service through the Horsehoe Curve. It provided a good connection to trains like Santa Fe's Chief which was a 2 day, 1 night trip from Los Angeles to Chicago on a time schedule close to the Super Chief.

 

[Seaboard92]

The Chief was the premier ATSF train before the Super Chief started running. And if it had been any other railroad it probably would have been the highest of the fleet.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Sadly (or happily depending on how you look at it), I wasn't born before the start of Amtrak. So I do get jealous of all these pre-Amtrak trains/services described. But of course back then train travel was a competitive market and not a Congress run service with no competition and no incentive to improve service or attract business.

Still, I think service was better in the Amtrak era than it is today since my first appearance with Amtrak way back in the early 90's and while the 1979 cuts were bad, there were some steps forward in Amtrak between 1979-1994 (SL East, Auto Train, Lake Cities, DAL-HOU via College Station) and there have hardly been any steps forward since 1994 outside of state supported routes. Also, several trains schedules are longer today than they were back in the 90's which seems backwards. We can argue about frequencies, service, etc, but the biggest selling point of train service is simply having one to go from point A to point B and no one can argue there's less today than 1994.

 

[railiner]

Why go back when we could have better? Why not figure out new, more useful routes rather than recreating old ones (not saying some aren't useful)?

New, old, as long as it serves NYP-CHI via NJ-PHL-HAR-PGH I'm happy.

If you were around before Amtrak, your favorite train would have to have been, The Pennsylvania Limited....unlike the other PRR New York-Chicago limiteds, it served PHL...that is Thirtieth Street Station (it actually was hauled backwards from New York to Philly to facilitate the move). The other trains stopped in North Philadelphia, and took the "subway" bypass to the Main Line....

The Pennsylvania Limited left Chicago later at night so it provided overnight service to Pittsburgh and daylight service through the Horsehoe Curve. It provided a good connection to trains like Santa Fe's Chief which was a 2 day, 1 night trip from Los Angeles to Chicago on a time schedule close to the Super Chief.

The Pennsylvania Limited departed New York at around 11:30 PM...about an hour later than NYC's Chicagoan....

And I believe it departed Chicago also around that time...I guess you could call it the ultimate "clean-up" train....

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

Some more discussion on old Amtrak routes: http://discuss.amtraktrains.com/index.php?/topic/877-discontinued-amtrak-route-you-want-revived/page-3

The discussion was from 2003 while the Three Rivers was still running so they aren't included in the poll.

 

[Philly Amtrak Fan]

In the old Texas Eagle Houston leg (http://www.timetables.org/full.php?group=19941030n&item=0031), they list "Southern Pacific Lines" for DAL-HOS by way of College Station. I don't believe Southern Pacific is still around today, did they get merged into Union Pacific? Does UP still own the DAL-College Station-HOS line? If not, who does? And what is the conditions of the track?

 

[Seaboard92]

Union Pacific merged Southern Pacific, Western Pacific, Rio Grande, KATY, and Missouri Pacific into it. I think the track is still there.